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Last Post 12/01/2009 10:33 PM by  RandyC
Unsealed Shingles
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BennyBulger
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09/16/2009 11:54 PM

    Can anyone tell me what the standards are for shingles that are not sealed down? I have a roof that went through a major storm with winds reaching almost 100 mph. None of the shingles on any of the slopes are sealed. It has been almost 2 months since the storm, they should have re-sealed by now. There is some debris under some of the shingles.

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    claims_ray
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    09/17/2009 12:25 AM
    Can you say "Can-O-Worms"?
    There is a whole bunch of discussion on this subject under one of the TWIA headers from hurricane Ike. Were the shingles ever sealed down? How old are the shingles?
    I have seen where the shingles the sealing strip was inadequate and never sealed down to the lower shingle.
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    BennyBulger
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    09/17/2009 12:33 AM
    The roof is 15 years old with 30 year shingles. It is good condition, in fact I was surprised when the insured told me it was 15 yr's old. There have never been any leaks or broken shingles, so I would think that yes they were sealed before the storm.
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    claims_ray
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    09/17/2009 12:39 AM

    Read some of the posts under Hurricane -  Wind Pool.  There are discussions in there concerning unsealed shingles.

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    Roy Estes
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    09/17/2009 10:17 PM

    Typically, Shingles will lay back down and reseal, unless there is debris stuck in the seal. or unless the shingles are brittle. Sounds to me like these shingle should settle back down and reseal. 15 years on a 30 year shingle is not too bad. See this link to learn about wind and shingles on a more broad spectrum. Hope this helps.

    http://www.donan.com/clientfiles/page_attachments/Self-Sealing%20Asphalt%20Shingles%20-%20Technical%20Bulliten%201.0%20-%20Seal%20Strip%20Considerations.pdf

    "Each of us as human beings has a responsibility to reach out to help our brothers and sisters affected by disasters. One day it may be us or our loved ones needing someone to reach out and help." RC ESTES
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    JimGary
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    09/18/2009 8:08 AM
    Benny, remember that if a problem occurs 1 year down the road, your decision will be under scrutiny. Yes the shingles should have sealed down by now in my opinion. Depending on the area, and how much wind is in the area, how often will these shingles be lifted again in the future because they did not seal down sufficiently after the first storm. If this was your roof, how would you want the adjuster to handle it. We have not inspected the roof and cannot see what you are seeing, but after two months,the two warmest months of the year, I would be hesitant to suggest to the homeowner that the shingles will just "lay down and reseal".

    JWG
    I know the voices aren't real, but sometimes they're right!
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    sbeau4014
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    09/18/2009 9:06 AM
    As Roy mentioned, one of the key factors here is if there is debris on the sealing strip that would prevent them from sealing back down. Once the heat and hot sun hits them for a period of time they should seal back down. One thing that needs to be verified though is whether the seal down strip is clean or not. I worked a straight wind storm in the Reno NV area that hit in mid Dec. with gusts up to 100 mph. With it was some major dust storms, and the blown off/blown up and cracked shingles were a no brainer. This storm had tons of roofs where the shingles were lifted by the winds and there was a large amount of dirt/dust imbedded under the shingles. We ended up totaling out numerous roofs where the "vivible" wind damages in the pictures was minimal.
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    chipolariverman
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    09/18/2009 9:47 AM
    This is an ongoing battle in my opinion in the insurance world. I am currently working as a file reviewer and I can say as I see many files that come in and state there is debris under the shingles but it is so hard to see this in the photos either because it simply is not there or it is just dust/dirt and next to impossible to see. I also see photos come in stating singles loose or unsealed but when the adjuster takes the pic half of the shingle is still stuck to the roof. The carrier that I am working for is very hard nose with the unsealed shingle issue and they pretty much will not pay for this issue unless it is very clear photos showing lots of debris under the shingle. I have mixed feelings about this for several reasons and kinda agree with both sides. First, was the shingle ever sealed before the storm? Who Knows? The roofer and the homeowner says it was but where they? I done roofing for 2 yrs about 10yrs ago for my father's roofing company and we mainly done metal roofs but I can remember when tearing the shingles off all of the shingles were not sealed and we were not working storm related repairs. If I had a shingle roof (I have a metal roof) on my home I would get up there and check just to see. Anyway next I agree with the roofers/homeowners, what is going to happen with the next strong winds comes through and lifts the shingles again and maybe breaks the spine or actually tears them off? I personally believe that if a shingle is over about 5yrs old it is not going to reseal itself, that is just a personal opinion. Does the insurance company owe for this? The HO-3 that I have by my desk states "Direct Physical Damage" is what will repaired/replaced. I personally do not believe this is a cut and dry issue as I can personally say that if the homeowner takes this issue up the ladder to apprasial they normally get what they want. The ole sweeky wheel gets the grease issue.
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    claims_ray
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    09/18/2009 10:16 AM
    Here is an excerpt from the report that Roy references above.
     
     SELF-SEALING ASPHALT SHINGLES – TECHNICAL BULLETIN 1.0EAL STRIP DESIGN, EXPECTATIONS, AND FAILURE ANALYSIS

    J. Lyle Donan, P.E., C.F.E.I.

    President

    Donan Engineering Co., Inc.

     

    Owens Corning

    “Your shingles contain strips of asphalt sealant that require direct warm sunlight for several days in order

    to seal properly. If your shingles are installed during a period of cool weather, they may not adequately

    seal until the season changes or the weather warms, and if your shingles never receive direct sunlight or

    are not exposed to adequate surface temperatures, they may never seal. Prior to sealing, your shingles

    are more vulnerable to blow-offs and wind damage. This is the fundamental nature of shingles and not a

    manufacturing defect, and we are not responsible for any blow-offs or wind damage that may occur

    prior to thermal sealing having occurred. After your shingles have sealed, however, they will be covered

    under this warranty if they experience blow-offs or wind damage in winds up to the levels listed in the

    chart at the end of this warranty. HOWEVER, FOR ALL SHINGLES, THE COVERAGE AGAINST SHINGLE

    BLOW-OFFS ORWIND DAMAGE IS IN EFFECT FOR A PERIOD OF FIVE (5) YEARS ONLY FOLLOWING THE

    DATE OF INSTALLATION, AND NOT FOR THE FULL WARRANTY PERIOD OF THE SHINGLE.”*5

     

     

     

    Further down in the same report there is this statement which was not associated with the Owens Corning statement above.

     

     

    "However, there is a catch… Since the sealant strip is an asphaltic compound, and since asphalt

    deteriorates with time and exposure, the effectiveness (adhesion) of a seal strip inherently decreases

    with time. The rate of this gradually deteriorating performance fluctuates widely from one shingle

    design to the next and from infinite natural variables, but manufacturers are generally consistent on this

    subject when they prescribe what their warranties will and will not cover. The consistent trend in the

    industry is that premium shingles are warranted against wind damage for a period of ten years and most

    conventional dimensional and three-tab shingles are warranted against wind damage for five years,

    beginning from the date of their installation – irrelevant of the shingle’s design, cost, or application."

     

     

    Based on this report isn't it more than likely that any 3-tab shingle or Owens Corning shingles were not sealed down if older than 5yrs and the same for any dimensional shingle that is over 10yrs.  This is unless of course there has been maintenance performed where the shingles were hand sealed back down.

    5.Owens Corning Standard Limited ShingleWarranty (US and Canada) 
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    chipolariverman
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    09/18/2009 11:27 AM
    Claims_ray based on that yes the shingles would not reseal themselves after 5yrs for 3-tab and 10yrs for dimensional shingles. But the question I have is if that shingle is over that number of years is that shingle damaged due to the wind or just simply not sealed? I know this is a huge can of worms because I deal with it every day as a file examiner and I am reviewing files from TX to CO to MN.
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    D Groves
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    09/18/2009 5:56 PM
    I'll add another facet to this discussion which I don't see having been addressed. That is, what was the condition of the roof at the time the risk was underwritten? The point being that insureds pay premium expecting coverage as purchased. If a carrier is going to be 'hard nosed' they should also be thorough. It my estimation, it's a legitimate point especially if the risk was inspected prior to the policy issuance. Let's not forget that most insureds are not held to the standard of roof experts and most insureds are not materially misrepresenting the risk (an issue that cannot be raised anyway if the carrier chose to write the risk 'as-is', particularly after having inspected or had-the-opportunity to inspect). With this in mind, carriers would do well to check the policy inception date, their own underwriting procedures/file, whether or not the roof was previously repaired/replaced from a prior claim, or if the roof was installed subsequently, was it properly installed. If a carrier is going to take the stand that a roof was improperly installed or lacked maintenance,etc (anything which they believe will avoid coverage) then the burden is on the carrier. Most carriers do exactly what I've discussed and pay losses which cannot be substantiated as uncovered causes of loss (even if it is so suspected).
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    Ray Hall
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    09/18/2009 6:40 PM

    I can not recall a roof claim or otherwise that has been turned down as "pre-existing except one in Atlanta in 1995'

    This house had a porch on the 2nd floor about 8-9 feet above ground level(house on a hill) The 2x10 joist hanger (band) wasd nailed over the T111 siding that went to the ground of the first floor and the kitchen window looked out into the  back yard which was a ravine.

    The kitchen had a very slight leak from a pipe that broke inside the wall and was caught almost at the time it occurred. The contractor contended the porch deck, band and entire back wall would have to replaced as the water had been funneled down into the wall cavity for the past 20 years. The homeowner was unaware of this problem since they moved in 10 years ago; therefore this was a risk of loss. I disagreed and the carrier agreed with me. 95% of the total cost of repairs was not paid as this was excluded under the HO-3 by one or more exclusions.

    Pull out your HO-3 , read it and chirp up. BUT I will not back down. ... So this can go on until the El Paso hail storm is over.

     

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    chipolariverman
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    09/18/2009 11:47 PM
    Ray I am going to take a stab at this one but I am going to say this is the reason you denied the claim;

    3. Faulty, inadequate or defective:
    a. Planning, zoning, development, surveying,
    siting;
    b. Design, specifications, workmanship, repair,
    construction, renovation, remodeling,
    grading, compaction;
    c. Materials used in repair, construction, renovation
    or remodeling; or
    d. Maintenance;
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    claims_ray
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    09/19/2009 1:05 AM

    It was Benny that posted this inquiry.  But thank you for your advice.  I certainly appreciated it.

    I hope that some of you note that I used advice properly in this statement.  I know how it is a pet peeve of at least one of the Moderators.

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    BennyBulger
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    09/19/2009 10:33 AM
    Thanks to all for your input, I didn't state the fact in this post but have in other post that I am in Denver selling roofs, therefore working for the insured. As an adjuster I think there is an obligation for the carrier to pay for this roof because there is no question about high winds during the storm on July 20th. As stated above the roof is over 10 years old and the possibility of the shingles resealing are slim. This roof has been turned down twice for hail damage(before I got involved) but has never been inspected by the carrier for wind damage. I would think that the two staff adjusters that came out on separate occassions at least one of them would think like I did and check for wind damage, but apparently that never happened. The insured has been been with this carrier for several years and as DelGroves stated have had the opportunity to inspect prior to the storm. The insured is a field inspector for the city and inspects many roofs a day, granted mostly for workmanship but he is no dummy. I am going to take a stab at this to see if the carrier will cover this under wind damage. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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    Ray Hall
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    09/19/2009 1:05 PM
    Some one is pulling our leg Benny. Do you allege a staff adjuster did not look for both wind and hail when he /she looked at a disputed roof loss? Do you have evidence the adjuster never allowed $$$ bper square to reseal the lifted tabs with mastic and a putty knife ? This is labor intensive but cost is nominal (about $30.) per square and it has been done for many years.
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    BennyBulger
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    09/19/2009 11:11 PM
    absolutely !
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    Ray Hall
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    09/20/2009 9:43 AM

    well lets do the only thing that is right Benny, send me your sworn affidavit with these adjusters names and I will take it to the great state of Texas Insurance License Department and make sure these incompetant adjusters have their Texas All Lines afjusters license revoked if they have one.

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    BennyBulger
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    09/20/2009 11:58 AM
    The check is in the mail.
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    Roy Estes
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    09/20/2009 3:28 PM
    Posted By BennyBulger on 20 Sep 2009 11:58 AM
    The check is in the mail.


    Benny you sound like a real professional. You should meet my buddy "Ol Cletus". Good luck out there "Benny" ...... BTW Does anyone know where the archive forum on worm is?
     

    "Each of us as human beings has a responsibility to reach out to help our brothers and sisters affected by disasters. One day it may be us or our loved ones needing someone to reach out and help." RC ESTES
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    FloridaBoy
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    09/23/2009 12:09 PM

    Some policies are worded ' repair or replace' at the carriers discretion. If the carrier elects to repair they will often guarantee the repair. Resealing the shingles, absent other peril related damage, is a proper repair. The insured is indemnified and the claim is adjusted.

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    claims_ray
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    09/23/2009 2:20 PM
    How is the insurance company to guarantee the repair unless you use their preferred contractor and they have an agreement with the contractor? How will this work if the insured has a storm created opening policy? What if the non preferred contractor or homeowner uses an inadequate sealing compound?
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    BobH
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    09/23/2009 9:26 PM
    Posted By claims_ray on 23 Sep 2009 02:20 PM 
    What if the non preferred contractor or homeowner uses an inadequate sealing compound?

    Keep in mind that a significant wind-event that TRULY blows shingles to the point that they are "lifted" and flapping around will show signs of creasing, tearing, fasteners pulled through, SOMETHING prior to the shingles actually flying off the roof.  Could just be a bad case of neighbor-itis.

     

    Bob H
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    BobH
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    09/23/2009 9:30 PM
    Posted By Roy Estes on 20 Sep 2009 03:28 PM
    Posted By BennyBulger on 20 Sep 2009 11:58 AM
    The check is in the mail.


    Benny you sound like a real professional. You should meet my buddy "Ol Cletus". Good luck out there "Benny" ...... BTW Does anyone know where the archive forum on worm is?
     

    Ah - yes - here it is.  Another reason to use the magical "search" feature:

    Posted By Ray Hall on 27 Apr 2009 03:44 PM
    ... Today catastrophe adjuster have 3 brackets 1. worm 2. OK 3. very good. You must work hard to get out of bracket # 2

    http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid/60/aff/41/aft/10757/afv/topic/Default.aspx

    Bob H
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    Mike Smith
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    09/25/2009 5:33 PM
    I know it is debated, but as Bob said, the most recent engineering reports I've seen show that wind strong enough to break a tab's seal, will not then just lift it a 1/4 inch and not bend it back or blow it off.

    I've also heard mention of conflicting engineering studies that wind creates a vacuum on the back side of the roof, lifting tabs. To me, that doesn't make sense.
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