Tags - Popular | FAQ  

PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 09/11/2008 10:47 PM by  Ed The Roofer
Am I an idiot?
 29 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Author Messages
MMoorhead
Guest
Guest
Posts:12


--
07/02/2008 12:43 AM

    I am just reaching out for some feedback from you veteran adjusters. I just worked my first 2 claims and 1 of them was kicked back to me for several reasons. A couple were not my fault, but two were my fault.

    I over-estimated a roof claim by 2 sq. and estimated with 3 tab 25yr even though it was architectural 30yr. I fixed the shingle type and sent it back, right after I did this I realized my mistake with the 2sq. fixed it and sent it again. Not to mention, I don't know how to put my estimate, narrative and carrier issued underwriting checklist together in a single document.

    I am embarrassed as all hell, I could just crawl in a hole. Will this company, HBC, have me back? Is this typical for first claims? Am I an idiot?

    I sure feel like one.

    0
    BobH
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:759


    --
    07/02/2008 12:54 AM

    The fact that you care about this stuff is what is important - that is why I want to help you out.

    Posted By Michael Moorhead on 07/02/2008 12:43 AM
    ...Not to mention, I don't know how to put my estimate, narrative and carrier issued underwriting checklist together in a single document.

    Roy did a great post a couple years ago explaining that but I can't find it. If you have the full version of Adobe Acrobat (got mine with a scanner I bought) it will very easily combine multiple docs.  Make sure each doc you are talking about is a PDF, or convert it to a PDF as the first step. This is called "stacking" and you could do a google search on a phrase like "Create and stack multiple documents in PDF format". 

    There is free software that does this, like docuprinter - PDF Factory, PDF redirect, etc.  but if you can get a FULL version of Adobe Acrobat (not just the reader) that is the way to go.  It lets you just open the PDF's you want to combine, tell Adobe to combine open docs, confirm the sequence and re-arrange if needed, then "merge" them to a single PDF doc.  The free ones do it too - so if you don't have Adobe just download something that will get the job done.

    Sounds like you are aware of the roofing issues, and you will move past that - and remember it. 

    If you do need help with roof measurements, here is a "cut and paste" from another thread of mine. The reference you can send off for is small, only a few pages, but good as gold:

    10 and 15% waste factors have been around since I started in 1961 and should never be changed.

    Yep, and for those who want to see it in writing, there is a reference that is commonly referred to in measuring roofs. It is only 4 pages long, but has everything you need to know.

    You can order reprints of this March 1997 article for $10 including postage:

    THE BASICS OF ROOF AREA CALCULATION - (3/97) (No.517)


    INTRODUCTION

    BASIC SHAPES

    APPLICATION of FORMULAS

    THE "BASIC CALCULATION"

    ROUNDING

    WASTE

    EXPOSURE

    RECAP

    TEST YOUR KNOWLEDGE

    CONCLUSION

    Just go here   http://www.npccrs.com/drlist.php?type=pdr 
    and find issue 517  (scroll down)

    I learned about this PDR reference from a State Farm trainer.  I have seen a training CD from Farmers with the same waste factors. 

    That article also talks about "Cut Up" roofs, which they define as having more than 4 valleys.  They recommend allowing an additional 2% waste for a "cut up roof" - but I have run into resistance on that point. Everyone seems to agree on 10% for gable roof, 15% for hip (or a "cut up" gable), and this reference uses that as a starting point.  It also describes rounding up to the nearest bundle - because you cannot go to the roofing supply store and buy a partial bundle.

    This reference makes no mention of deducting for chimney openings, vents, etc.  You would have to have a rather obvious area of missing roof to deduct it - not a simple penetration.

    Bob H
    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/02/2008 3:06 AM

    I just worked my first 2 claims and 1 of them was kicked back to me for several reasons. A couple were not my fault, but two were my fault.


    My experience with my first couple was the same, and as stated by the guy who trained me; Qoute "When the examiner or inside adjuster sees a new name, they are going to look harder at the report and estimate. Until you have made yourself a thumbprint and showed you know what you are doing you are going to be asked to make revisions and scrutinized. All new names (adjuster) on the reports is an attention getter". You will learn in time what is expected by the carrier, and what they will and will not accept. Additionally each examiner or inside adjuster has their quirks, which you will learn. While one is understanding to removing a wall to remove and replace a shower/tub unit, or removing and replacing casings, base mold etc for drywall repair others will question this, as they may not understand construction techiniques and must do's in these cases. Alot of them are new as well. As you progress you will become familiar with certain carrier staff, as they will you. All you can really do is learn from your mistakes, consult with your claims mgr (if you have one, which you should) and make notes of each examiner likes and dislikes and apply them to the estimate/report when you see their name(s). What estimating program are you using? If it is simsol it has a roof program that will figure the roof squares for you. You will need to obtain the slope length's, eave length, ridge length, hip length and so on. The program has different shapes that you simply click on and name it front, rear, east, west or whatever. See below for a scale which is used by some, and i used to use until i switched to simsol, as it is a little more user friendly IMO. To use this scale you need the obtain the eave lengths and apply a 10 0r 15% waste factor based on roof design (hip or gable).

                                                              Pitch                      Multiply

                                                                3                      1.031                                                 8                         1.202

                                                               3.5                       1.042                                                 8.5                      1.225

                                                              4                             1.054                                               9                          1.250

                                                               4.5                       1.068                                                 9.5                        1.275

                                                               5                         1.083                                                  10                        1.302

                                                             5.5                        1.10                                                    10.5                      1.329

                                                               6                           1.118                                               11                            1.357

                                                              6.5                       1.137                                                  11.5                         1.385

                                                               7                          1.158                                                   12                          1.414

                                                              7.5                         1.179

    0
    K ung Fu tzu
    Member
    Member
    Posts:76


    --
    07/02/2008 6:25 AM
    The fact that you care enough to get your report correct the next time puts you well ahead of many other novice adjusters. Keep reaching out like you did for advice and you'll be fine. When a big storm hits and you start working claims fast and furious, just take an extra few minutes with every claim and perform a proof read. You'll learn over time where you regularly make your errors and will be able to spot them quickly.
    0
    MMoorhead
    Guest
    Guest
    Posts:12


    --
    07/02/2008 1:08 PM

    Thank you so much for the very detailed response. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this kind of charity.

    As far as the roof measurements go, that will be extremely helpful. I am using Xactimate, the reason I over estimated by the 2sq. was because the roof was on two different levels. They had the main roof and a gable extension about 4 ft above the main roofs ridge line extended over the front porch. The whole roof was either 8/12 or 12/12 and had 6 valleys. It is a big big house, and very complex for my first claim. So when I punched it all into Xactimate I didn't deduct for the area that the raised gable was covering the main roof. I ended up figuring it out on my own before my claims manager did, but this is after I had already sent the claim back with corrections. SO I ended up sending 1 claim 3 times.

    I've got the PDF situation figured out, and I actually found a great free tool for it. If you want it, it is at www.pdfsam.com .

    I am just frustrated. I want my claims to be perfect, I want to be able to have a good reputation as a solid adjuster someday. Are my worries that I will not be asked back by HBC justified? Or am I just overreacting?

    Once again, thank you so much for all of your help, it means a great deal to me.

    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/02/2008 1:50 PM

    I am just frustrated. I want my claims to be perfect, I want to be able to have a good reputation as a solid adjuster someday.

     

    Well, no one is that perfect. Everyone is going to have revision request sent back to them. As i stated earlier "different strokes for different folks". Some examiners are just that way, they  will find something wrong or questionable in every report to call you out on, nothing you can do about that. The best advise i can give you is to scope the risk and damages identifying what is covered and what is excluded and go with your gut on indemnifying the loss. If they want something changed, they will surely let you know. When you have exclusions overlapping covered damages explain in depth why you have allowed for excluded damages to be replaced. Examples of this would be 1. wind damage on slopes that also have shingles that are brittle and deteriorating, there is going to be ensuing damage to the other shingles on this slope during the removal process, and new shingles will not reseal to the older ones due to condition. 2. Wear and tear on drywall, which is excluded, but the wall has VMM, water damage etc and has to be replaced. ALWAYS EXPLAIN IN GREAT DETAIL what you have observed and allowed for within the estimate.

    0
    Ray Hall
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:2443


    --
    07/02/2008 3:01 PM

    Ut oh GW your stirred up something with your example number 1. I reread it 3 times and it sounds like the old Texas hail adjusters who would stand up in a room full of adjusters and make the statement..... to the speaker.... "thats not how I was trained, if its to old to repair you have to replace the whole roof...its like working with butterfly wings.... and the speaker(claim supervisor) replies... well you were just trained wrong, thats not how we do it.!

    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/02/2008 6:57 PM
    Posted By Ray Hall on 07/02/2008 3:01 PM

    Ut oh GW your stirred up something with your example number 1. I reread it 3 times and it sounds like the old Texas hail adjusters who would stand up in a room full of adjusters and make the statement..... to the speaker.... "thats not how I was trained, if its to old to repair you have to replace the whole roof...its like working with butterfly wings.... and the speaker(claim supervisor) replies... well you were just trained wrong, thats not how we do it.!

     I get your point, however as i stated above, everybody has different views and opinions as to what needs to be done. When i started out i only wrote the losses to address only the actual damages related to a covered peril until an examiner called one day and informed me of the following: "If there is wind damage exceeding a patch repair requirement, you should allow for the particular slope to be changed. Old shingles that are overlapping with covered damages may cause further ensuing damage after repair, as they will have to be lifted and tampered with". After this examiner informed me of this i started writing them this way, when it applies, and have sent many in to many different examiners. I have yet to be called about it. Now this is not probably how every carrier views this situation, but mine thus far has. It's just like to different adjusters handling the same loss, there reports may be similar, but most of the time they will have varying differences. Same for carriers and examiners IMO. After all they have final payment determination.

    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/02/2008 7:10 PM

    Sorry i did not put emphasis on what i mean by "old shingles". I am refering to shingles that or in the same condition as peanut brittle and such, and will not reseal and will most likley break when tampered with. If the shingle will reseal then of course they can  remain.

    0
    BobH
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:759


    --
    07/03/2008 12:54 AM

    Yep - there certainly are lots of opinions out there, and you have to choose your battles.

    Posted By GW Moco on 07/02/2008 7:10 PM

    Sorry i did not put emphasis on what i mean by "old shingles". I am referring to shingles that or in the same condition as peanut brittle and such, and will not reseal and will most likely break when tampered with.

    All of us have seen shingles so deteriorated and brittle that they are already falling apart, have "thermal cracking" and there are issues with repairing it. Kind of like an old deteriorated fence, if it just rotted at the posts and fell over there would be no coverage. It was lucky it fell when there was a strong documented wind storm, so there would be coverage (subject to depreciation).

    I have heard roofers say "any roof older than X years old is not repairable" and that is just wrong. They are in the business of selling a roof. Even with the same house, you may find the slope facing the sun is fried, and the other slope is pliable.

    Let's say it's your roof that needs a small patch, and you have no insurance, you have to spend your own money. The roof is 8 years old, not terribly brittle. A reasonable person may use a tool like this to do the repair:

     Roof snake 1

     

    Roof snake 2

    You can buy this tool for $30 and it prevents you from having to lift the shingles above the repair very far.  I am not selling these, but just providing info, you can find more info here (or do a search for "roof snake")

    Posted By GW Moco on 07/02/2008 7:10 PM

    If the shingle will reseal then of course they can  remain.

    Again you have to choose your battles, and if the roof needs to be replaced, or borderline and you can side with the Insured, that's great. If you think the roof is repairable, and someone argues about not "re-sealing" around an isolated repair, that is what a tube of Henry's mastic is for. I am not talking about re-sealing a huge region or trying to do a cheap repair - but these are options you weigh depending on the degree of damage (isolated hit vs random throughout the whole slope or roof) and the previous condition of the roof.

    In other words, if I think the roof is repairable, and I know the storm manager is going to say it is repairable from the photos, yet the roofer is saying the tabs won't reseal when they are separated to do the repair - the roofer may be right.  The seals aren't made to be broken repeatedly, so you simply help them seal by glueing them down around the isolated repair.  A real roofer will already know that, a temporary salesman who was selling cars the week before may be enlightened as to why you value the claim based upon a reasonable scope of needed repairs.

    Bob H
    0
    Ray Hall
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:2443


    --
    07/03/2008 12:47 PM

    This is a topic that many adjusters have a differant opine. Just because a building has recent windstorm damage to an old roof does not require the insurer to to replace the WHOLE roof. The only time is when the cost to repair/reseal each single(tab) in the whole field EXCEEDS, the cost of new to R & R the whole roof. This would eguate to each shingle replacement of about $10.00 each for this quanity, or about 15 per square , time the entire roof. Call it a constructive total loss, because of the quanity of shingles.

    I think and thing made by a man, can be repaired by a man.

    0
    LarryW
    Member
    Member
    Posts:114


    --
    07/03/2008 7:03 PM
    Michael,
    It doesn't appear that anyone has answered the question posed in your original post on this topic. Allow me to give you a definitive response.

    idiot

    c.1300, "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning," from O.Fr. idiote "uneducated or ignorant person," from L. idiota "ordinary person, layman," in L.L. "uneducated or ignorant person," from Gk. idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill," lit. "private person," used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own" (see idiom).

    "Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." [Mark Twain, c.1882]


    I don't know how you fit within the above definition, but I am pretty sure you are not a member of Congress. Therefore, you must not be an idiot.
    No one is absolutely worthless, at the very least you can serve as a bad example.
    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/03/2008 7:34 PM

    All of the post i have viewed strayed away from the original question/comment that i have noticed. This one just kinda proved the point i was making to Michael in his second post here when he stated "he wants to be perfect". No one is, everyone is going to have something scrutinized or not agreed with because alot of the time someone else is always going to look very hard to find something wrong with your opinions, scoping methods and overall work . As with anything else, there is always someone else who has a different way of doing things and alot more experience. Bob posted last about some apparatus that i have yet to see until he posted it, but i will remember it as i have printed it out in case a roofer or PA ever argues there is no way to repair shingles without removing tabs. I to learn from these post's.

    0
    BobH
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:759


    --
    07/03/2008 8:14 PM
    Posted By GW Moco on 07/03/2008 7:34 PM
    ...in case a roofer or PA ever argues there is no way to repair shingles without removing tabs.

    People have historically patched roofs and fences for centuries. You don't patch damaged carpet without doing the whole room, but many roofs can be repaired rather than replaced - and that's the decision they pay us to make.

    Doing a roof patch is common knowledge, like this article from the "family handyman" magazine.  They show use of a tube of Henry's Mastic to seal the upper shingle back down over the area of repair.

    Henrys Mastic Glue

    In addition to the one I posted on the last page, roofers have special tools like this one for asphalt shingle repair  Here's a link to a video of it in use.

     GripBar Shingle tool

    That video, and the article from Family Handyman show nice flexible shingles being bent.  If the existing roof is not pliable...  there is the tool on the previous page and you have to remember we are not a maintenance contract and do not insure against shingles becoming non-pliable.  We ensure against direct physical damage to property, and what will it take to do the repair of that damage.

    They make long flat ones to yank nails from wood shingle roofs, slate, or siding.

    Shingle Ripper

    This is common knowledge, but bears repeating because some people do talk like "no one repairs a roof anymore" and that is not 100% accurate in all cases.  You can err too far the other way too, and think everything is repairable. 

    It is what it is, but the more you know the better your decision will be - and the faster that decision will appear between your ears.

    Bob H
    0
    HuskerCat
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:762


    --
    07/03/2008 11:49 PM

    Bob H, you are just the bomb....with all your relevant posts and the little "bolded linky things" we can click on.   That's all stuff that most of "round the block" type know from "just been there done that", but to put it out there on links like you have done is terrific.  Now, the question is, have the wantabees been smart enough to click on those links you provided??   Thanks for contributing like you do.  

    0
    BobH
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:759


    --
    07/04/2008 12:14 AM

    Thanks Mike, appreciate it. Not to beat this thing to death, but here's some fine tuning...

    Posted By GW Moco on 07/02/2008 6:57 PM
    ...Old shingles that are overlapping with covered damages may cause further ensuing damage after repair, as they will have to be lifted and tampered with".

    There is some truth to that, and if you see damage to an isolated region it's a good idea to round it up a bit to allow for that.  You see a certain # of 3 tab shingles with visible damage, and fatten it up some to allow for some neighboring shingles or whatever.  Round it up to the next full bundle, or square.  And that's a different scope of repair than "you have to pull it up to the ridge" or buying the roof - which is what most roofers and homeowners would like to see happen. When it's hard to justify the whole roof you can feel frustrated and see shades of gray.

    Call it like you see it - and if it is an isolated repair you want to make that decision quickly and pay what you owe when you know you owe it.  If you are using Xactimate and it is a small repair, you have the Min Chg and other choices including a price "per shingle" which is actually quite generous and allows for all this labor we have been talking about (much different than new construction).  Read the descriptions of what is included for the price of Min Chge, or individual shingles (hit F8 or click on the image) and the right answer will come to you.  Sometimes I will allow a square or 2 and then explain an extra labor entry, 1/2 day or whatever to allow for tie-in because the per-square price pretty much assumes you are doing the slope, or doing a re-roof.  Allowing for a roof repair does not = low-balling the claim. If it is more than a Min Chge but less than a re-roof, you just have to be fair and allow for what is needed. 

    These arguments are much harder when the file is late, you didn't get the report in on time, the insured has been hounding you, and you feel guilty already because of delays.  Then you don't buy the roof and they get really mad at you.

    Bob H
    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/04/2008 12:43 AM

    Round it up to the next full bundle, or square.  And that's a different scope of repair than "you have to pull it up to the ridge"

     

    I am not talking about every roof with a little age on it, i am talking about a roof in this condition. If there is a tool that could prevent these shingles from breaking, i would be amazed. This roof had wind damage in the middle of both slopes, how is it possible to patch repair this. This is the condition i refer to, not all. I know that only "damage related" is what the insurer is to cover under the policy, but the carrier i work for would not go for a patch job on this, and i know it would be impossible to do, without there being a strong possibilty of further damage later, which could cause interior damage that would be paid as it is ensuing damage. After paying for ensuing damage after ensuing damage it seems it would be cheaper to replace the roof.

    0
    BobH
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:759


    --
    07/04/2008 12:59 AM
    Posted By GW Moco on 07/04/2008 12:43 AM
    If there is a tool that could prevent these shingles from breaking, i would be amazed.

    These shingles were already broken before your loss - so you are right, these shingles are not really repairable.

    These shingles suffer from "thermal cracking" which is the long crack on many of the shingles that runs parallel to the lower edge of the tabs.  The glue seal is one point of attachment, and the nails securing the 3-tab to the decking is another point of attachment.  As the shingles expand with heat, over time, the cracking shows up. 

    Thermal Cracked Shingle

    Haag photo

    These are so bad they also have the blistering, and the roof is beyond it's useful life.  With a roof like this, you kind of search out for slopes that were not affected by the recent event, and figure out if there are slopes that are simply deteriorated with no direct physical damage to property.

    You will encounter some claim managers that allow a full roof when most of the slopes are damaged, and it sounds like you and your manager have a rhythm going that is working well.

    If you do an internet search on this subject, there are documents online like this one from Haag and that is where I got the 2nd image.  As many of you know, there are publications from Haag Engineering such as their Comp Roof damage assessment field guide that help with this and other issues.  It's a small book you can also use to enlighten a homeowner with, show them photos of known issues if that roof manifests them.  I try very hard to look at this stuff in a non adversarial way, and to get the homeowner, contractor, and people that write the checks on the same sheet of music.

     

    Bob H
    0
    Davidad1
    Guest
    Guest
    Posts:42


    --
    07/04/2008 1:05 AM
    Gw
    This roof is past the usefull life as you know. The wind damage is a small part of this roofs problems. This roof is in need of replacement and not due to wind but age and deterioration. The carriers I provide repair estimates to pay for what is damaged by the wind ,which is what I write up with photos, etc showing the condition of the roof and to why a repair can not be done with my recomendation that the roof /slope needs replacement due to age and deterioration. There is no way I would or could repair this roof and stand behind my work and do not. The insured's are told by the adjustor here is what the damaged costs would be to repair this roof if it was in a serviceable condtion. The adjustor tells them they need a new roof or slope due to age and they should apply part of the repair costs to a new roof/slope.
    Estimating is living on the edge between greed and fear
    0
    moco
    Member
    Member
    Posts:122


    --
    07/04/2008 1:23 AM

    Posted By David Dickerson on 07/04/2008 1:05 AM

    The wind damage is a small part of this roofs problems.

     Agreed, but the wind damage is there (not going to post all photos to prove). And as i stated previously i started out writing only for damages related to the peril that caused the loss, until told otherwise by an examiner. Is he right??? Don't know, however he and the carrier he works for does is the ones paying, and if they feel as though this roof needs to be replaced to properly indeminfy the 2-3 squares damaged, great, more for me come payday. I agree with you guys, and know what you are saying, but maybe because i have been working with this insurer from the beginning i have kinda started seeing eye to eye with them and know what they want!! This roof is suffering from every exclusion from a-z but there view is; Well, the wind damage is there and the deterioration is right in the heart of it, can't work around it in this condition.

    0
    You are not authorized to post a reply.
    Page 1 of 212 > >>


    These Forums are dedicated to discussion of Claims Adjusting.

    For the benefit of the community and to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, please observe the following posting guidelines: 
    • No Advertising. 
    • No vendor trolling / poaching. If someone posts about a vendor issue, allow the vendor or others to respond. Any post that looks like trolling / poaching will be removed.
    • No Flaming or Trolling.
    • No Profanity, Racism, or Prejudice.
    • Terms of Use Apply

      Site Moderators have the final word on approving / removing a thread or post or comment.