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Last Post 07/09/2008 10:01 PM by  okclarryd
What happened to this roof?
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swink_d
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05/27/2008 2:37 PM

    Attached photo is from a 6 year old roof , which sustained minimal hail damage.  This condition is not present throughout the entire structure. The structure is in Nebraska

     

     

     

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    Florida Boy
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    05/27/2008 5:37 PM
    It looks like the shingles in that picture may have been defective.
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    magnoliaadj
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    05/27/2008 6:03 PM

    The first appears to be a combination of shingle seconds and lack of ventilation.  The second is wear to the lower side of a valley.

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    magnoliaadj
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    05/27/2008 6:22 PM

    I am still searching for the hail damage?

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    Medulus
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    05/27/2008 6:44 PM
    First, I'm pretty sure it's a second or third layer of roofing, possibly two layers of comp over wood shakes. That might account for the waviness of the roof and the more rapid than usual deteriorated. It is also likely a southern exposure to maximize the weathering. But, I'm still don't believe all those factors could make a six year roof look 25 years old. There would have to be a defect in the shingle manufacture as well.
    Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

    "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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    swink_d
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    05/27/2008 6:50 PM

    Heres and additional photo

    Its on a 99 doublewide

    No shakes and a single layer. Its a mutual and they have a pix immediately after after install for the RC

    and  Jim ...  I didn't ask you to find the hail damage  now did I?

    see why I quit posting on these forums

     

     

     

     

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    HCofPA
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    05/27/2008 6:52 PM
    Given that this is in Nebraska, it is possible that someone has shoveled the roof to prevent ice daming. Unfortunately it caused physical damage. I've seen this here in PA.
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    swink_d
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    05/27/2008 7:01 PM
    Posted By Rodger Zeiders on 05/27/2008 6:52 PM
    Given that this is in Nebraska, it is possible that someone has shoveled the roof to prevent ice daming. Unfortunately it caused physical damage. I've seen this here in PA.

     

    Thanks

    That makes sense.

    Especially for the valley

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    Ray Hall
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    05/27/2008 7:10 PM

    I these shingles are older than 6 years. Extreme heat has has caused the swelling and cupping of the shingles. I think it was hit by hail at least 3-4 years before this photo and I think a lot of foot fall was in this laced valley.

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    HCofPA
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    05/27/2008 7:21 PM
    Look carefully at the corners of the tabs, they are still square. Aged tabs round off as weather erodes the edges. The aggragate is still pretty solid in the undamaged areas indicating that they are not older. And the damaged areas appear to be chipped, less at the top of the roof and more dense at the lower sections. Heat build up concentrates at the peak. I still believe this to be owner induced possibly by what is called a snow rake. It has a telescopic handle that is used from the ground. You throw or push it up and drag the snow off.
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    HuskerCat
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    05/27/2008 9:35 PM

    Your 2nd photo on initial post looks like that is a laced valley (no metal), but it must be a very minimal valley area.  Laced valleys will always show some hail damage when the rest of the roof looks fine, but this roof really doesn't look "fine" anywhere.  Have to agree with most here, poor insulation in the attic along with some defective shingles as evidenced by the bad bundle or two that are in that one area.  And some of those edges do look like foot traffic, or a bundle or two that got dropped on edge before they were installed.  Might have looked OK the first year or two but then the sun do take its toll.  Is that area above a laundry room?

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    swink_d
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    05/28/2008 1:34 AM

     

    In this pic , you can see that the same damage runs the length of the mobile home, so no its not just over a laundry room.

     

    The claim has been settled per the carriers instructions,  I originally thought it was an aged roof  over 6 years old, but the carrier GMA inspected the roof for RCV purposes when it was installed.  I am leaning to defective shingles, although I can't explain how  they  go up the slope, condition improves steadily to the point the top 10 rows  do look 6 years old.

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    Russ
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    05/28/2008 8:33 AM
    If the roof is only six years old, the shingles must be defective. I have seen a lot of defective shingles in all parts of the country and in Wichita, KS I had a number of roofs with bad shingles. They were specific bundles and all the shingles in the bundles were bad. They curled up like in the photo and I met with a roofer and we found out the shingles were all from the same manufacturer. We denied the roofs and I beleive the manufacturer bought the most of the roofs.
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    Ray Hall
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    05/28/2008 12:40 PM

    Is it possible the photo of the laced valley and the long shot of a single wide are not one and the same ? The long shot shingles look blueish and the valley shingle look grey/white blend of slate. The long shots looks like 2.5 pitch and the laced valley taken from close up(wrong angle) appear to be on a 4.5 pitch or a 5.5 pitch, but it may be the angle. The colors are differant and on the left slope of the long shot all of the lower shingles are 2nds or something damaged the shingles (snow rake). Why dont you show the diagram and all the roof photos  and we can see if this MH had a Gable on the front and we can see the pitch.

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    swink_d
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    05/28/2008 1:46 PM
    Posted By Ray Hall on 05/28/2008 12:40 PM

    Is it possible the photo of the laced valley and the long shot of a single wide are not one and the same ? The long shot shingles look blueish and the valley shingle look grey/white blend of slate. The long shots looks like 2.5 pitch and the laced valley taken from close up(wrong angle) appear to be on a 4.5 pitch or a 5.5 pitch, but it may be the angle. The colors are differant and on the left slope of the long shot all of the lower shingles are 2nds or something damaged the shingles (snow rake). Why dont you show the diagram and all the roof photos  and we can see if this MH had a Gable on the front and we can see the pitch.

    Jeeez Trader  

    Rolling my eyes at these absurb notions

    It has a gable on front  Its not a single  wide  ( You  need glasses ??) and its all from the same roof

    Heres a few more .... No risk photo for you, as it has the name & address ... but  here is  one of the gable on the East and a different view up the west slope.

    and the difference in color you are seeing is due to evening shadows

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    magnoliaadj
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    05/28/2008 2:09 PM

    Mobile home roofs are typically 3 1/2 pitch and this one appears no different.  The additional photos comfirm my first diagnosis.  The upper protion gets minimal ventilation form the vents.  There is no way the ventilation gets to the lower level and note the excessive wear begins about 1/2 way down.  The valley is just wear from channelling the runofff.  With this said, It is also obvious this roof is either over 6 years old or defective or both.

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    magnoliaadj
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    05/28/2008 2:15 PM

    Oh yeah. You show only photos of the south or west slope.  Is the problem evident on the north or east slope?  I would wager it is not evident at all or if so not nearly as pronounced

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    Ray Hall
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    05/28/2008 4:20 PM

    Well Mr. Swink you will be the first person that I have insulted since I have been posting. Sounds like the examiner took a chunk of your butt on this one.

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    swink_d
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    05/28/2008 4:54 PM
    Posted By Ray Hall on 05/28/2008 4:20 PM

    Well Mr. Swink you will be the first person that I have insulted since I have been posting. Sounds like the examiner took a chunk of your butt on this one.


     Wrong again....

    No issues with this claim as far as closing it. As soon as I requested the prior claim , I was given specific instructions

     

    The claim was turned in and paid before i asked on CADO

     

    I asked here so I could figure out WHAT iS DEFECTIVE WITH THE SHINGLES.... obviously tthey are defective regardless of the  searing Nebraska heat

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    Leland
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    05/28/2008 7:22 PM
    Could these be organic shingles as opposed to fiberglass ? (asphalt comp generally means asphalt with little fiberglass hairs for reinforcement, like most shingles used today. The organic shingles lose granuales in patchy spots and are thicker and get worn on edges, curl up etc. I admittedly don't know as much as most of y'all about roofs but the shingles in this photo look kind of like the ones I saw the other day that the roof inspection company guy told me were organic.
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    Organic shingles

    The organic based, mat based shingles are very heavy and their finish is not as smooth as fiber based shingles. The mat of the organic based shingles is made from asphalt and felt paper. They become heavier because in a fiber glass shingle, less asphalt is used whereas in organic shingles more asphalt is used, and asphalt makes them heavy. On the other hand organic based shingles are more flexible but they are more water absorbing in nature and thus have a tendency to wrap after a certain period. Because of these reasons, fiberglass shingles are more popular in the central and southern parts of the USA. The organic shingles are more popular in the northern part of the USA.

    If you are using organic shingles for your home then you must take the precaution that they comply with the ASTM D 3452 standards and also notice that they comply with ASTM D 225 standards too. It is becoming increasingly mandatory by municipalities that the shingles meet these compliances. Hence you should read the label on the shingles and check that these standards are met with. The shingles, both fiberglass and organic can be anywhere in the price range of $25 and $ 80 per square.

    Fiberglass shingles

    Fiber glass shingles are light weight. They appear thinner too. It is so because their backing has been made from fiberglass which is a light and thin martial. A typical asphalt shingle bundle can weigh anything between 70 to 140lbs. There are usually 3 bundles of shingles for each square, i.e. 100 sq feet of each square. Thus the lightweight fiberglass shingles are easier for the roofer to carry up the ladder. Another added benefit is that they are more fire resistant and the warranty offered is also for a longer period as compared to organic shingles.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Professional Roofing Magazine

    Which asphalt shingle is better?

    by Tom Bollnow

    Q: Which type of asphalt shingle is better for a steep-slope roof system—organic or fiberglass?

    A: Asphalt shingle material performance depends on the quality, quantity and compatibility of asphalt, fillers, reinforcement and surfacing granules. Both organic- and fiberglass-reinforced asphalt shingles can be manufactured to provide the necessary qualities to achieve their design service lives. There is no definitive answer as to which type is better—both have documented performance records. Preference is based on performance attributes and generally depends on climatic regions.

    Reinforcement

    Fiberglass shingles have been produced using fiberglass mats varying from 1.35 pounds to 2.5 pounds per 100 square feet (65.9 g/m2 to 122.8 g/m2). Fiberglass shingle strength and toughness generally increase with a mat's mass. Fiberglass mats are more fire- and moisture-resistant than mats used for organic shingles, and the quality of the back coating on a fiberglass mat helps increase resistance to low-temperature thermal contraction. The top surface asphalt coating of a fiberglass mat includes a filler content of about 60 percent to 65 percent, which adds strength to shingle strips and tabs.

    Organic shingles are produced with organic mats principally composed of defibrated wood fibers. A heavy back coating of asphalt on an organic mat is critical to preventing moisture intrusion, which can cause curling and cupping of shingles. Although organic asphalt coatings use less filler than fiberglass coatings, organic shingles generally have better tear strength and fastener pull-through resistance.

    Fiberglass shingles

    Fiberglass shingles' advantages include resistance to fire spread, moisture intrusion and surface degradation (e.g., mildew). In addition, fiberglass shingles carry Underwriters Laboratories' (UL) Class A fire-resistance classifications. Fiberglass shingles' moisture-resistance abilities also result in less curling and cupping of shingle strips and tabs.

    However, the nature, amount and shape of a fiberglass shingle's self-seal strip affect wind-uplift strength and resistance to cracking and splitting. Roofing professionals should note that combining a lightweight mat and seal-strip bond strength that is greater than tear strength can cause cracking and splitting of fiberglass shingles.

    Organic shingles

    Organic shingles' advantages include good wind resistance, tear strength and rigidity. In addition, organic shingles telescope fewer underlayment irregularities on new and overlay applications, and they carry UL Class C fire-resistance classifications. Organic shingles' toughness also provides better cold-weather pliability, and their stiffness provides better performance in heat.

    Failure of organic shingles begins with surface crazing of an asphalt coating and increases as moisture moves to the organic mat. Curling, cupping and buckling also can occur as a result of moisture intrusion into the edges of an organic shingle's strip or tabs.

    Availability and use

    The 1999 NRCA Steep-Slope Roofing Materials Guide lists 15 asphalt shingle manufacturers. (Roofing professionals should note that the guide was published before several roofing products manufacturer consolidations occurred.) According to the guide, seven produce only fiberglass shingles; six produce fiberglass and organic shingles; one produces fiberglass and modified bitumen shingles; and one produces organic, fiberglass and modified bitumen shingles. Of the 169 shingles listed, 121 are fiberglass, 43 are organic, and five are modified bitumen.

    Generally, roofing professionals in warm, humid areas almost always select fiberglass shingles, which often are enhanced with algae and fungus inhibitors. Roofing professionals in cooler climates are more evenly divided in their preferences for organic or fiberglass shingles.

    Conclusion

    Asphalt shingle selection is related to preference for application-handling characteristics, UL fire-rating classifications and life-cycle expectancy. Various surface colors, styles (e.g., three tab, laminated) and algae-resistant products are available for fiberglass and organic shingles.

    Asphalt shingles should be specified by weight, manufacturer, and compliance with American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) standards and applicable building codes. ASTM standards include ASTM D 225, "Standard Specification for Asphalt Shingles (Organic Felt) Surfaced With Mineral Granules," and ASTM D 3462, "Standard Specification for Asphalt Shingles Made from Glass Felt and Surfaced with Mineral Granules."

    When selecting asphalt shingles, roofing professionals should avoid mistaking problems associated with ventilation, underlayment, substrate, attachment or color shading with the physical properties of fiberglass or organic shingles.
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    HuskerCat
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    05/28/2008 10:30 PM

    Jim S. made an interesting observation about the curling appearing to be the worst on the lower half of the slope, and the ventiliation problem likely being a concurrent causation with the defective shingles.  I see the vents along the ridge which appear to be fairly far apart, but it is a little hard to judge distance unless I strain real hard & count those tabs!!

    One thing I've noticed is that those modular/double-wide mfr's often neglect to install the proper amount (if any at all) of soffit vents or the gable end vents to accomodate true full ventilation.  The end result is what you see here, and what you also find in the winter time with ice dams in the gutters or the rake in the absence of gutters.  Do you recall if this house had any soffit vents?  

    By the way, please send some of that searing Nebraska heat back home that you referred to.  We've been a little short on spring & heat here of late.  No shortage of rain though.   

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    HuskerCat
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    05/28/2008 10:42 PM

    Just another note regarding Leland's excellent comparison of organic vs. fiberglass.  I always noticed that the organic shingles tended to "crumble" on the edges much easier when you were walking a roof during an inspection.  An older organic shingle surface generally shows more edge damage after a minor/moderate hail storm, compared to the fiberglass, even though neither product may exhibit any penetrations or hits on the main surfaces of the tabs.  Makes for interesting adjusting when you have a mix in the same neighborhood.....totals vs. no-damager's. 

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    Ryuras
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    05/29/2008 5:09 PM
    One idea that I haven't seen yet discussed. If this is the original roof, it means it traveled down the free way at 60+mph. I have seen several 3-tab mobile's have this problem. The shingle will bend up slightly during transportation, because the shingles are not sealed (due to the mobile coming out of the factory). The bend or curl can be just enough to not re-seal. I have also replaced a few roofs like this that had the corners curled due to the packaging the materials were delievered in. The packages were not perfectly flat when palletized, thus causing some lower bundles to have defects. Regardless, they'll be getting a new roof
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    okclarryd
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    05/29/2008 7:29 PM
    The area that is discolored and is different from the rest of the roof is simply a bad batch or bundle. There is some damage from ice removal by whomever and foot traffic.

    I would bet I could find some hail damage up there somewhere if there was, in fact, a hail storm in the area. Ya gotta get on your knees and really, really look sometimes.

    And, ................ I think I see some damage from "blue ice".

    Happy Trails
    Larry D Hardin
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    swink_d
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    05/29/2008 8:39 PM

    What is "blue ice"?

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