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Last Post 04/29/2014 8:47 AM by  Catsvstrained
Safest "REAL" Rope & Harness Training SE Coast recommendations please
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Banyan Rider
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03/11/2014 4:11 PM

    Can anyone provide me a list of REAL Rope & Harness Training places where I can get certified, most likely FL, GA or South East?
    All the courses seem to be in TX or further. I've searched REI, SPRAT, AITECH in GA, other IA companies that offer "rope training," but which certification is the one OSCHA or rope professionals would agree will help me save my life on steep roofs?

    The followed a link I read here on Cado:  http://catastrophecareerspecialties...nbsp;which caused me to rethink where I was going to be trained. I believe I was about to pay upwards of $1000 for the whole trip (hotels, gas, course, etc), for which this post commented on, teaches improper techniques. I've worked with some adjusters who use the improper Gri-Gri techniques, hands-free standing, and knot tying that this post mentioned as "improper." 

    I'm a bit confused but wish to get trained on steep roofs before I become "that guy" who wishes he had taken the safety courses because he fell. I've been climbing roofs for years without incident but something inside me is saying to get more information and proper training. 
    Thanks!

    pondman
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    03/11/2014 4:29 PM

    Just outside Atlanta Georgia. You will not pay an arm or leg either.

    http://www.aitechinstitute.com/rope...arness.htm

    Uh, uh wait a minute......so this Texas Rope and Harness says the "gri-gri" no hands standing as you call it is improper. I've seen their advertisements also and did my own research and homework. The company I referred you to uses a national trainer that goes into caves, and caverns for rescues. I think he knows a thing or two about the "gri- gri" and "no hands " technique you mention. Ever see these rescue guys with no hands as they heave an unconcious body up a 200 ft cliff. Pretty safe, huh............

    What you are referring to is called the "fall arrest" technique. Google it, do some research and reading, look what OSHA says and make your own opinion. It is call the fall aresst because it is not just for repelling, but it keeps you from  falling no matter what happens when done correctly. The so called "gri-gri" that you speak of allows you to descend or ascened. 

    I myself trained in this and use it on two-story steep roofs and it has primary and secondary "fall arrest" systems so you will not fall even if you trip and let go and stumble. You are only as good as your equipment and training.

     

    Give them what they want, when they want it, and how they want it !
    Banyan Rider
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    03/11/2014 5:33 PM
    Thank you for the reply. I had that web page tabbed during my research here at CADO. It looked good and I saw it recommended elsewhere here too. It's a positive to read another favorable opinion about this place. I like what you wrote.

    I don't know about such things but it read like the sort of things I wish to know. Like the "fall arrest" system, as in when you're on a 10+/12 2-story with walk-out basement declined grade (now a 3-story) and you can't see the ground at all over the eave but you got to take pic of those lifted edge shingles .... Yea, I want "fall arrest" system knowledge because right now walking slowly with controlled breathing just doesn't seem the safest way anymore.

    Thank you again!
    pondman
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    03/13/2014 8:37 AM

    Funny thing. I can always use someone elses comments or advertising to boost my company. I did this with construction products in my homes. I learned how to spin things to your advantage and make people think for themselves long ago. 

    You mention a company (I know which one) uses tactics like improper roping techniques and adjusters useing the "no hands" with a grigri rigging. Funny thing is , if you look at their training video they have two Adjusters with their hands up in the air as to say "look Ma...no hands' while climbing a mock roof using rope and harness techniques.

    They also sell the "grigri" on their website. Things that make you wonder.

    Give them what they want, when they want it, and how they want it !
    Catsvstrained
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    03/20/2014 11:18 AM

    It appears as though a few assumptions are being made here and I wanted to provide the straight and skinny for all you “free thinkers” out there who are interested in locating a “Rope & Harness” program that will yield the greatest return on your investment.

    To begin,

    the very first thing that you should know about the worldwide Rope Access Community is that they began to get organized in the late 80’s with the founding of IRATA (the Industrial Rope Access Trade Association). IRATA started out as a rope access resource in the UK for the offshore Oil & Gas Industry however since then has merged into the mainstream of most all industries who struggle on a daily basis with work that is difficult to access.

    1996 marked the emergence of SPRAT (the Society of Professional Rope Access Technicians)a North American group of rope access professionals who were tired of getting hassled by OSHA for using rope access equipment and techniques  on the job site that would have otherwise required massive amounts of scaffolding to complete.

    Please Note:  Rope Access is a relatively new concept that has only been around for a couple of decades now and NOT YET recognized by OSHA 1926.500 standards for fall protection.

     

    However, since 1996, SPRAT has successfully taken on OSHA by educating them and getting them to agree to what is called a “variance” for rope access as a valid form of fall protection.  However, however…, in order to qualify for this so called “variance” employers must comply with what is written in SPRAT’s signature standards document; “Safe Practices for Rope Access Work”.

    Hint: Google and read “Safe Practices for Rope Access Work”, I promise that it will yield you information that is waaaaaaayyyyyy  more valuable than “ the “fall arrest” technique”  that  our  pondman  has referred us to.

    SPRAT’s “Safe Practices for Rope Access Work” is THE North American Rope Access Worker’s bible. It is the most valid assembly of rope access information based on the consensus of the leaders of the North American Rope Access Industry.   It is also very similar to that which is documented in IRATA’s “International Code of Practice”.

    Moving right along, it would now be appropriately pertinent to introduce ANSI (American National Standards Institute) yet another major player on the field of fall protection standards. ANSI was started over 100 years ago when they began assembling a system of voluntary safety standards based on science and fact. Today, ANSI is recognized as the most professional and valid North American safety standards organization AND they have established standards for Fall Protection as well / ANSI Z359. When it comes to the topic of Fall Protection, ANSI safety standards are considered so valid that OSHA in fact will often simply copy and paste them into their own 1926.500 updates.

    Please Note:  Rope Access is not yet formally recognized by ANSI under their “Fall Protection” code HOWEVER…….and I love this part…… ANSI has announced that Z359 will be updated this year to include Z359.8 Rope Access Systems,  which will finally sanction the use of Rope Access as a form of Fall protection as it is outlined in SPRAT’s “Safe Practices for Rope Access Work”.

    Is everyone following me so far??? Does anyone need a break???...... OK then I guess it is time to move along to this nasty little debate over who’s opinion matters the most when it comes to the proper use of a “Grigri”.

    ANSWER: THE MANUFACTURER!

    Why Would The Manufacturer Know More About Their Own Product Than Let’s Say pondman or anyone else for that matter Would? : (A bit rhetorical in nature but ok…lets go there) The manufacturer is the one that (through their team of engineers) created this product and has the very best perspective on the product’s capabilities and limitations.

    What Does The Grigri’s Manufacturer Have To Say About Proper Use?:  Petzl is the manufacturer of the grigri and they categorize it as a “belay device / descender” used by one person to secure the climb of another. Petzl does not sanction its use by a single person to secure their own rope access system. A grigri’s  ability to lock onto a single point along a lifeline is dependent on a spring loaded cam that rests in the open / unlocked position, it lacks any locking feature that provides the redundancy required to complete rope access work in a hands-free manner. If a rope access worker were to use  a grigri as a primary belay device in a hands-free manner, (like we would to inspect a roof when it came time to run a tape measure, write on a clip board, complete a test square etc…) and unintentionally introduced slack into their lifeline system, the grigri’s spring loaded cam would pop open and unfortunately allow our old nemesis Gravity to have its way with us. A Petzl “Rig” or a Petzl “ID” (a rig w/ training wheels as most call it because it incorporates additional safety features that prevents failure when loaded backwards and an overzealous descending hand) is a much better choice for a rope access descender because they include lockable handles that allows us the security of hands-free work with the blessing of the manufacturer. Yea for us!!!

    OK Then Smarty Pants, What does OSHA, ANSI, SPRAT & IRATA Have To Say About This?:  All of these organizations agree that workers should NEVER, deviate from the manufacturer’s instructions for use, care and retirement.  ANY person or organization who would knowingly or unknowingly encourage, train or advise others to use ANY safety equipment in ANY manner other than that which it was engineered is courting disastrous consequences.   

    In Closing: I would state that “Rope & Harness” / Rope Access certification is a very valuable tool for Property Claims Adjusters AND one of the hottest topics at this year’s PLRB conference (the nation’s largest Insurance claims education & exhibition event that took place on Mon & Tue of this week).

    Choose Your Rope Access Certification Vendor Wisely: Do not select a rope access training company that does not base their program on the foundation of what has been established by IRATA or SPRAT.  ACRABAT (The Association for Certified Rope Access Building Assessment Technicians) is currently the only professional association dedicated to developing guidelines for rope access on “Pitched Roof” systems that operates within the SPRAT standards for “Safe Practices for Rope Access Work”. ACRABAT currently holds the lead seat in SPRAT’s committee for developing pitched roof rope access guidelines under the category of “Buildings and Urban Environments”. Pitched roof specific rope access guidelines will establish much needed criteria for equipment, worker management, standard operating procedures and training , slated to be available sometime in 2014.

    PS - I believe the picture you were referring to was that of  some rope access trainees using a Petzl "Rig" descender that was backed up with a 6.5 mm prusik cord, not a "Grigri"

      "Look Ma No Hands"!

    CatSvs Trained
    Jud G.
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    03/20/2014 6:06 PM
    I was once told,

    "There's two types of adjusters, those that have fallen off roofs and those that will."
    mbradbury
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    04/13/2014 1:35 PM
    Good show, good show!
    I do it because I want to provide a better life for my family than my parents could provide for me.
    Roy Estes
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    04/18/2014 6:11 PM
    The best training for rope and harness is GET A ROOFER.... and YES make him HAAG certified.
    "Each of us as human beings has a responsibility to reach out to help our brothers and sisters affected by disasters. One day it may be us or our loved ones needing someone to reach out and help." RC ESTES
    Roy Estes
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    04/18/2014 6:13 PM

    Posted By Jud G. on 03/20/2014 6:06 PM

    I was once told,



    "There's two types of adjusters, those that have fallen off roofs and those that will."

     

    True story Jud. LOL





    "Each of us as human beings has a responsibility to reach out to help our brothers and sisters affected by disasters. One day it may be us or our loved ones needing someone to reach out and help." RC ESTES
    Catsvstrained
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    04/20/2014 8:50 AM
    Posted By Catsvstrained on 04/20/2014 8:50 AM

     "Get a Roofer" ?

     I am sorry Roy but I am a little confused with what you are trying to say here.

    Did you mean:

    "Get a Roofer...after all they are in fact the only ones who can determine what real roof damage within the context of an insurance policy looks like?"

    or

    "Get a Roofer...after all they are in fact the only ones truly impervious to effects of gravity?"

    or

    "Get a Roofer....after all the neighborhoods are infested with them and who really cares if we lose a couple?"

    or

    "Get a Roofer...after all those guys will do anything to sell a roof job?"

    or

    "Get a Roofer...after all the company that pays me to handle their claims did not actually hire me because of my experience and training?" 

    or

    "Get a Roofer...after all I am a claims adjuster and have better things to do than look at some silly roof?"

    or

    "Get a Roofer... after all, it is about time I show my employer that they choose the wrong person to complete this job?"

    .......................

    No offence Roy, In all probability, what you really meant with your statement was: "Get a Roofer...after all NO roof inspection is worth an injury".

    and I respect that:)

    -

    I suppose that I have run this assumption you present out there far enough to make my point. It is true that not all adjusters are created equal and you are correct if your comment is a suggestion that many of them do not belong on aggressive roofing systems. However, I believe the biggest misconceptions about risk managed pitched roof access comes from those who have the least exposure to it.

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    For all you new adjusters out there, don't be fooled into the belief that the claims industry is equal and fair to all who enter. Real fortune in this industry will always belong to those who bring the most to the table. Insurance employers do not hire you for your ability to outsource opinion.

    -

    Remember Folks, good Claims Adjusters are Good Sales People. You should always be selling your customers / policyholders  and employers on the merits of your decisions, NOT the decisions of someone else. Those who outsource will ultimately get outsourced.

    CatSvs Trained
    CatAdjusterX
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    04/22/2014 5:03 AM

    Hi Kevin,

    would you shoot me an email at:

    Robby@FOATA.net

    We discussed putting some of my members through your course and then writing a review about it.

     

    Talk soon my friend...

    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    AcceleratedAdjuster
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    04/22/2014 6:36 AM

    I am torn about these types of "certifications". They are not recognized or "official" certifications. Much like a "Certified General Adjuster" or "Registered General Adjuster" certification, they mean little and are not really recognized by anyone, the exception being that you actually learn something from rope handling courses. I grew up rock climbing, and thus never bothered to take a course to learn rope handling, but I guess I could see the benefit. That said, one can easily go to their local REI, Bass Pro Shop or anywhere else that sells gear and has a climbing wall and learn how to use the equipment properly (as well as how to tie knots). Learning to tie a proper knot and to use the equipment is not exactly rocket science and I have known countless adjusters who, in the process of purchasing their ropes and peripherals have had the sales rep toss a rope over the red iron and teach them right there, on the spot, how to use the ropes, tie a proper knot, how to properly wear assorted harnesses and how to properly use the Petzl Rigs. They did not have to pay a grand and travel to Texas or Georgia to figure it out, and with the exception of a couple of carriers that have specific classes that they want people to take (and I have no idea of the one advertised in this thread is one of them), their ability to use ropes is generally not questioned by the vendors that hire them. (If I hire a contractor, while it may be incorrect to do so, a certain amount of proficiency with the tools of the trade is presumed).

     

    www.acceleratedadjusting.com www.acceleratedadjustingisrael.com
    BobH
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    04/24/2014 12:34 AM
    Posted By Banyan Rider on 03/11/2014 4:11 PM

    ... I believe I was about to pay upwards of $1000 for the whole trip (hotels, gas, course, etc),

    I paid that much 4 years ago to do Kevin's course in Texas - Catsvstrained (I flew out from California). His course was a fraction of my cost, most of it was flying out, renting a car, hotel.

    It was the best career move I ever made. I had about 20 years claim experience at that point, so I knew what I was doing - but not on steep roofs that were beyond Cougar Paws. At this point I have been on a lot of pucker-city roofs and am totally confident. 

    Actually I have done 3 rope & harness courses now, because some vendors will not recognize anything but "their" class for liability reasons. And that is fine. I always learn something.

    It's kind of like Xactimate certifications, they really don't mean a thing. What matters is if you can get the product.

    And if you are on a bad-ass roof, there is only one thing that matters. If you have the basics and confidence that starts with some professional guidance.

    Posted By AcceleratedAdjuster on 04/22/2014 6:36 AM 

    I am torn about these types of "certifications". They are not recognized or "official" certifications. Much like a "Certified General Adjuster" or "Registered General Adjuster" certification, they mean little and are not really recognized by anyone, the exception being that you actually learn something from rope handling courses. 

    Right, I think there is some truth to that. At the end of the day, you just need to be able to get the job done, on any roof no matter how spooky.

    One of the issues that don't get addressed by standard rock-climbing training is how to get the rope over a large 2 story house - it can be quite a distance. People that specialize in adjuster roof safety will walk you through the unavoidable grief that is specific to this trade. It is kind of unique, it is a "work positioning" as opposed to straight-down fall-arrest. So the attachment point is going to be at the front, someone who is working off a tall scaffold will need attachment at the rear shoulder area. There are some unique aspects to it.

    Bob H
    pondman
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    04/24/2014 3:30 AM

    If I was in France in the earlier years, I would believe you just took your gloves off and slapped me in the face there my good man. Did I step of your toes? Do we need to grab "ascenders" and "static line" and walk 20 paces and commence to have a climb off.  Ha Ha ! 

    Funny thing is, my entire comments and safe climbing teachings are based on SPRAT. Thanks for continuing to shed knowledge on that.

    Grab your "grigri" ooops my fault....your "Petzi" rig and let's secure a 250 ft. line over a 2 story 12/12 pitch to secure anchors and use an "ascender" with the "Petzi" and while we are clipped in take the belay lever off the lock position and see if we fly off that roof or as you say gravity have its way. If you are using your equipment correctly you will no go sliding down the rope like a "seal team from a helicopter drop".

    Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Safe climbing guys.

    P.S. my 300 ft. rope, ascender, Petzl Grigri, anchor lines are all coming in handy these last two weeks on these Dallas Texas roofs. Nothing like a straight up two story onto a 12/12 pitch hip all the way around.

    Good day Mates.

    Give them what they want, when they want it, and how they want it !
    BobH
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    04/24/2014 10:31 AM
    WTF?
    Anyway... I have used the Gri-Gri quite a bit, however my choice for the last few years has been a simple rope grab.
    I wore out a Gibbs rope grab, and am now using a Petzl rescuscender (not to be confused with the Petzl ascender - which I do not like at all).

    I am sure there are multiple instructors out there who can do a good job - and I am not picking sides.

    When I did my training there were not a lot of choices. Just don't be too quick to pass judgement on Kevin's class in Texas if you haven't done it personally - he does have extensive experience in this field and knows what he is doing.
    Bob H
    Jud G.
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    04/24/2014 11:09 AM

    Great posts Bob and AA. Both are very insightful.

    Bob, glad to see you back. You always set an example with such informative posts that address the issue and remain diplomatic.  I like how you remain open to new certifications and consider how they can help you open new doors.  If you are still doing State Farm work, this is usually a world involving large carriers who favor numerous certifications and designations.

    My IA background is in a world similar to AA whereas many certifications are indeed useless.  This world welcomes adjusters who may be low on the certification side, but demonstrate that they are pro-solution (I am not in anyway indicating you are not, because it is clear that you are).  This world is characterized with carriers who issue manuscript policies and have a strong correlation that's absent the expectation of certifications.  For example, I was once told by a manager issuing claims with high-end GA rates that adjusters who focus on numerous carrier certifications, NFIP, rope-harness, etc. are irrelevant and, in some cases, can be detrimental.

    BobH
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    04/24/2014 5:43 PM

    Thanks Jud.

    Here's the rope grab that I have been using lately. (Rescucender)

    I really liked the Gibb's rope grab but after a few years the pin failed. The Gibbs has 2 small ball bearings that are supposed to prevent the pin from coming out on it's own (spring loaded). Well one of the little balls fell out, and the pin would just pull out on it's own. That was after mucho use - but still you don't expect that.

    The Petzl rescucender has a super-simple method to secure the pin and I do trust it with my life.

    Bob H
    CatAdjusterX
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    04/24/2014 11:26 PM
    I think for the most part (there are always exceptions), it used to be one who was certified infers that individual is an expert in said discipline. Today? Whomever has the money (again there are exceptions)
    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    Catsvstrained
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    04/29/2014 8:47 AM
    I would be very cautious about comparing Rock Climbing to Rope Access.
    -
    Quote from Accelerated Adjusting:
    “I grew up rock climbing, and thus never bothered to take a course to learn rope handling, but I guess I could see the benefit. That said, one can easily go to their local REI, Bass Pro Shop or anywhere else that sells gear and has a climbing wall and learn how to use the equipment properly (as well as how to tie knots). Learning to tie a proper knot and to use the equipment is not exactly rocket science and I have known countless adjusters who, in the process of purchasing their ropes and peripherals have had the sales rep toss a rope over the red iron and teach them right there, on the spot, how to use the ropes, tie a proper knot, how to properly wear assorted harnesses and how to properly use the Petzl Rigs.”
    -
    REI is a Sporting Goods Retailer and a trip there:
    • will not yield you the information on how to build and use a "First Man Up" Fall Protection System from the safety of the ground w/o damaging your lifeline equipment and burning a hole through the ridge cap.
    • will not necessarily yield you any equipment. REI in most cases will not sell sport climbing equipment to those who freely admit that they have no knowledge on how to use it. They simply do not wish to invite the liability.
    -
    Most adjusters are not aware of the fact that of the six IA companies committed to reporting incidents, injuries and fatalities to our professional association, seven fatalities were logged on Hurricane Sandy claims alone. These companies do not telegraph this fact because they are not proud of it but they are at least committed to providing the injury narratives on them in order to be a part of the solution.
    -
    The moral high ground here is to encourage IA companies to get away from an “Acceptable Loss” strategy for managing risk. Remember that an IA company can absorb a couple fatalities and a couple dozen injuries and still turn a profit at the end of the year BUT YOU CAN’T. IA companies might even be able to keep a clear conscious with the notion that:
    “If I hire a contractor, while it may be incorrect to do so, a certain amount of proficiency with the tools of the trade is presumed”
    There is no physical injury that can be considered acceptable on an individual level.
    -
    “Desperate times call for desperate measures” A statement that surrounds our careers as IAs:
    A storm hits and the insurance carrier is desperate to deploy enough workers to handle the claims. If those workers are not properly trained and a few bodies will be lost as a result of the claims handling process then so be it as this is simply the cost of doing business.
    -
    Remember:
    People have always been willing to put themselves at great risks in order to feed their families and it is easy for employers to exploit this tendency. This in a nutshell is the fuel that fires US governmental regulation to protect workers.
    CatSvs Trained
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