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HAIL: The difference b/t a Hail Hit and a HAAG Hit...
Last Post 05/12/2012 6:45 PM by Jud G.. 28 Replies.
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Author Messages
Jud G.
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts:509


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09/28/2010 6:03 PM
    I sat through a vendor training seminar a few months back and walked away stunned at what I heard. 

    During the seminar, we were told that a hail hit on a composition roof had to penetrate the asphalt backing.  Close-up photos need to show a hole on the back side of a lifted shingle to confirm and justify the hits within a test square.

    Conditions not Qualifiying Hail Damage:
    1)  bruises where the black tar was now visible due to the removal of the granular ballast (gotta have a hole) or
    2)  a generallized condition of granular loss evidenced in the flashing, gutters, or paved areas below the eaves of the home.

    The carrier representative kept referring to HAAG as the ultimate resource that backed this up.  
     
    I have my own opinion about this subject, but have kept mum about it so as to ponder the significance of such a call.  I am also thinking about what may have led them to make this conclusion.
     
    In our humble corner of the adjusting world, I am curious to know what you all thought about what HAAG considers as a qualifying hail hit?
    jdacree
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:161


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    09/28/2010 6:43 PM
    Most of the roofs that I have worked, a circular type indention in the surface that is "mushy", is considered a hit. No hole through to the felt is needed. Also the gutters can be full of granuals and the carriers will not buy the roof. In addition to research of Hagg on line the above constitutes a hit in one of the carriers hail and wind guide.
    Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
    Leland
    Posts:742


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    09/28/2010 7:20 PM
    perhaps this might help:


    HAIL ADJUSTER DECISION FLOWCHART (copyrighted)


    1) If it is an all risk policy? If yes, go to question #3 (skip question #2)
    2) Was it hail?
    3) Is there direct physical damage?* If no, recommend denial. If yes, go to question #4
    4) What will it cost to fix correctly?


    * Many adjusters are curious to know if hail hits the shingle hard enough to knock of all the granules in one spot whether that should be considered "direct physical damage". Also some adjusters question whether a roof with hundreds of small round unsighlty black spots can be considered "damaged". These are deep philosophical questions far above the pay grade of the developers of this decision flowchart. Please consult your supervisor.
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    09/28/2010 8:54 PM
    The real old adjusters used the thunb on top and the forefinger on the bottom. You could lift up the shingle(before they were seal down]and either push the do nut hole down and through or make the do not hole move a little with two fingers. Today you can train your thumb to push and you can feel the impact, better than you can see it in some light conditions. If you have balls unseal a few shingles and try this test.
     
    Never get on the roof until you walk around the house. You will see splatter marks on oxidized paint on light meters, AC condemsers, bar b q etc. If its down their its also up their. ( this does not apply to hail up at the  top of a two story ladder, its all up on the ridge were the roofer is sitting), come on up old man.
     
    Why does Haag and xmate not have a code for hand sticking shingles , if they are the experts? Thats a very good question ? Can we get an answer from some of the carriers that hang with these two experts on storm damage and fair prices. How about the thumb rule makers we need some printed guide lines. Us old guys will have to be the 3rd adjuster, I guess.
    Leland
    Posts:742


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    09/28/2010 9:48 PM
    I was being sarcastic on my flowchart, if anybody didn't get my sense of humor.

    But seriously, if the roof looks ugly, doesn't that count as damage?

    Damage can be:

    1) loss of structural integrity

    and/or

    2) a bunch of ugliness from the hail hitting

    so if an engineer says there is no loss of structural integrity, ie. the shingle still functions great, but it looks bad, wouldn't that still be damage?

    I get the point that if the hail is real light it might not be damaged.

    but loss of structural integrity is not the only definition of damage- - if your roof has a bunch of spots on it that can also be damage

    just my two cents- maybe nobody agrees with me!

    And Ray has good advice here- if it puts a dent in the siding it probably hurt the shingles too. Not to mention ALL the damage needs to be estimated.
    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


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    09/28/2010 9:56 PM
    In an effort to understand what constitutes 'damaged' composition shingles: Why do manufacturers even apply the granular coat to begin with? What purpose does that serve- color? protection? If protection, then from what?

    Can anyone tell me the purpose of the black tar that you usually see in leak prone areas (the stuff you see applied incorrectly in valleys, around roof jacks, nails on top of shingles, etc.)? How long does that roof tar application last? What's the proper way to apply that stuff?
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Posts:1110


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    09/28/2010 10:32 PM
    The claims process is larger than what most roof jumpers consider. The claims process ends at a courthouse. The "lifted shingle" losses with TWIA demonstrate this. The subject of a class action suit could just as easily be roof coverings that are simply "ugly" after a wide spread covered loss. The instant loss does not have to be large, just a loss and lots of the same type. The losses are denied and a plaintiff's attorney files suit and a class is certified.
    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    jdacree
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:161


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    09/28/2010 11:42 PM
    The granular surface serves 2 purposes, a) to protect the mat from UV damage, b) to provide the different colors that homeowners want. Hagg had a good study on line about granular loss about a year back that showed that granular loss in itself did not contribute to the loss of function of the roof covering.

    A roof with lots of ugly spots may be blistering, and is not covered as this is a function of bad manufacture or improper ventilation in the attic causing too much heat. Light hail will not damage the shingle in the way that Ray described above, so the roof is still functional, no coverage.

    The roofing tar is to seal irregular areas and should be applied to a clean dry surface in a consistant coating thickness, the life of the tar is until it starts to crack providng a leak path for water. And the comment above is correct, it is usually applied incorrectly.

    And yes you should review all damage. I have seen light weight hail that just sandblasted the paint off of surfaces, handled correctly this was admitted as reason for repainting. Not replacement of the shingles or the wood, or metal surfaces affected. A good look at the gutters, ac condensor, or roof vents will be the first clue if there is severe damage to the shingle. If there are dents of a large size in any of the soft metal there usually will be damage to the shingles if the are not fairly new.

    The wind lift problem,which would cost about $700.00 for a 20 square roof, will not be settled until it becomes a no deductible operation, that can be paid to the homeowner with supplement for shingles that are then broken during the reseal process. The roofing companies are not going to reseal, they do not want this business, will not provide warrenty, nor want to replace at thier cost the shingles broken in the reseal process.

    Just mt 2 cents
    Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
    Leland
    Posts:742


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    09/29/2010 12:25 AM
    The black tar is called mastic, at least in California. It requires maintenance- it needs to be touched up every few years. If a flat roof has no wind damage, but the "penetrations" such as pipe jacks have cracked mastic, that can be a source of leaks. I always try to photograph cracked mastic.

    As for warranties, I can understand why a roofer would not want to give a warranty on a repair. If a roof needs repair, it is probably 1) not new and 2) already having problems. If a roofer did a very nice quality repair for $300.00 the homeowner might be calling them 2 years later asking them to fix a different part of the roof and some interior water damage at no cost.

    One of the arguments often brought up is that a repair without a warranty is not "like kind quality" compared to the other shingles that still have a warranty. Some carriers solve this problem by providing their own warranty to repairs done by the roofer. Adjusters are instructed to provide a warranty document to insureds that get a repair, or maybe just the insureds that ask for one. A very large carrier in Katrina was doing this but I don't remember all the details.
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    09/29/2010 5:36 AM
    Insurance claims are not simple unless the damage is very straight foward. Roof claims are really rather simple, Did an insured peril damage the roof ? Yes -No. If its yes can it be repaired without total replacementof 100% of the roof membrane. This is the question that must be investigated by the carrier. I think the carriers should not get into warranty work on a house, but they can not let the restoration people call all the shots. This will require sticking the neck out and reapiring real damage on dwellings  more along the lines of auto collision repairs, and workers compesation claims on injured workers.
     
    Total replacement of a roof with several years left is insane thinking. But then this rather simple job is not simple anymore
     
    An inexpensive solution to conflicts between insureds/others and insurors is NOT the the obsolete appraisal provisions in most contracts.
    Goldust
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:305


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    09/29/2010 8:59 AM
    Here is my opinion! Take it for what it's worth.
     
       if the hail Compromises the shingles Life expectancy ,that is damage. You can push on those blemishes and you can feel that the hail compromised the integrity of the shingle it's that simple. If you have ever seen older hail hits they can & will grow in size as the elements take their natural toll on the shingles. The wind, rain , cold & heat are expected elements that are considered when the shingle is built.
     
        Make them whole again nothing more nothing less!!
    JERRY TAYLOR
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Posts:1110


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    09/29/2010 11:44 AM
    The least expensive way to handle roof claims is to be lenient in the definition of damage and to replace the roof membrane. TWIA's problems with "lifted" shingles proves that.

    Deny claims with "lifted" tabs and then settle with a plaintiff's attorney for $189 million.
    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    09/29/2010 4:45 PM
    Chuck TWIA put out a book, thats what cooked them, but we had 50 other carriers who were singing the same old song. We need to stop this run away train, but I "thinK" the carriers will get their rate  increase "AND"  I think thats the plan. Underwriting profit "too low" when you pay billions you don,t owe it does screw up the figs.
    Medulus
    Moderator
    Posts:785


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    09/29/2010 5:56 PM
    Yeah, what Leland said! Good analysis from start to finish. Also what Chuck and Ray said. And the rest of you, too. I am the Amen corner here.
    Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

    "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
    WILLIS
    Member
    Member
    Posts:97


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    09/29/2010 7:56 PM
    Roof claims be those wind or hail in origin bring forth a plethora of issues.  I have been an adjuster both staff and IA for almost 40 years. It still amazes me how inept many so called adjusters remain in determining what is a covered in a wind or hail claim, especially with all the support and technical advancements available , like HAAG.  TWIA and their "wind lift issues"  are a result of again ineptness agreeing to pay for something that is not supported by the techincal experts.  Attorneys file suit alleging wind caused the shingles to lift, but the reseal issue arises;  is that wind or age.  Sadly,  defense attorneys who are all rah-rah when hired by the carriers quickly cave in when faced with actaully defending the issue in court, where good law just might solve the problem. 
     
    Money always wins out in the end.  Defense attorneys opine the cost to defend is more that a single claim is worth, and that has merit, but alot is their own inability or worse public fear of losing that spurs action.   So, after the entire gambit is run from the field adjuster doing his job saying this is not covered, to carriers who bend over due to cost, here we are.
     
    My two cents would be this:  If you have a widespread wind event such as tornado or hurricane or hail then do not fight the issue of replacing the roof.  Just do it.  Pay the insured a fair ACV, holdback what you can, if allowed by state law, then pay the full cost when the roof is replaced.  Use an accepted service like Eagleview to generate an accurate roof measurement coupled with Xactimate or Simsol or DDS or whatever is the current going rate.  Put the burden on the insured to stop any further interior or exterior damage.   If he fails to comply then defend with the policy condition  of failure to mitigate his damages to prevent further loss.  
     
    Considering the legal climate and how much money carriers have been legally forced to pay, expect carriers to seek not only short term rate increases, but eventually, altered policies that drastically limit wind or hail damages, placing a dollar cap of the most they will pay.  This would be similar to water damage and mold caps seen in policies now, that did not exist prior to the exhorbitant payouts forced on carriers a few years back by the dreaded "mold issue".
     
    If you are outside a wide, accepted loss event, you might have to fall back to evaluating that loss on its individual merits.   
     
    Stop all the rhetoric with experts lined up on both sides claiming they are right. 
    Ryan in Houston
    Member
    Member
    Posts:16


    --
    09/29/2010 11:07 PM
    My Haag manual says...



    "Functional damage to composition shingles is defined as a reduction of water shedding ability or expected service life"

    It also describes hail damage as "punctures" or "bruises"

    Simple enough...
    claims_ray
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:293


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    10/01/2010 4:47 PM
    Posted By WILLIS on 29 Sep 2010 07:56 PM
    My two cents would be this:  If you have a widespread wind event such as tornado or hurricane or hail then do not fight the issue of replacing the roof.  Just do it.  Pay the insured a fair ACV, holdback what you can, if allowed by state law, then pay the full cost when the roof is replaced.  Use an accepted service like Eagleview to generate an accurate roof measurement coupled with Xactimate or Simsol or DDS or whatever is the current going rate.  Put the burden on the insured to stop any further interior or exterior damage.   If he fails to comply then defend with the policy condition  of failure to mitigate his damages to prevent further loss.  
     
     

     
    Based on what is occurring in the Houston/Beaumont area after Ike I would maybe agree with you however I believe that you would just open up a big ol' can of liable worms over additional damage (to the interior) with the full replacement of a roof. Specifically without an inspection as it seems that you are suggesting.  The Lord and every adjuster also know that even though someone may originally state that there is no other damage to something that they can and will find additional damage after any initial phone conversation.
     
    Who decides the boundaries where the roofs should be replaced?  I would hate to be the one on the stand explaining why the house across the street fell outside of the boundary.
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    10/01/2010 5:57 PM
    I don,t think one adjuster who was trained as a property adjuster by an insurance company would ever start this slope talk and all the crap that the cat. adjuster world has heard in schools, bar stools and the internet. When a claim is reported it requires a good investigation, this can be done in a matter of time that it takes.... a 1/4 hour, day or month and it has to be done. Some people just do not know what each loss needs.
    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


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    11/29/2010 1:39 PM
    Posted By jdacree on 28 Sep 2010 11:42 PM
    The granular surface serves 2 purposes, a) to protect the mat from UV damage, b) to provide the different colors that homeowners want. Hagg had a good study on line about granular loss about a year back that showed that granular loss in itself did not contribute to the loss of function of the roof covering.

    Good post and I agree with the definition of the functional purpose of the granules.  However, my concern is the approach to defining the functional purpose of the roof's shingles. A roof functions when it lasts as long as the advertised warranty (20 yr, 25 yr, 30 yr, etc).

    The roof functions when it has all of its granules fastened to the black mastic underlayment.  When the granules are gone, the shingles no longer function to protect the home and will succumb to cracking- usually within a 2-5 year period.  Sure, it may shed water right after the storm, but the roof itself looses its functionality when it will not last for its advertised warranty.

    If light amounts of granules are lost in a generalized fashion without any black mastic showing, then the roof still functions.  This is why I can justify calling this issue as not acceptable for roof replacement.  Conversely, I can understand why others would disagree, but I'd still see this as not a qualified justification for replacement.

    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


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    11/29/2010 1:47 PM

    Hi Ryan,

    I wish it were that simple.  I've applied the definition you provided for the past ten (10) years.  I've always cruised on through hail claims under that general principle.  I wished it did not have to change.

    However, some carriers are wanting adjusters to get the HAAG certification.  With it, their approved adjusters will then approach hail claims based on the definition provided in my initial post.  Perhaps the definition is still the same, but its the carrier that chooses an alternative interpretation- kind of hard to do that unless you actually edit the words you provided.

    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    11/29/2010 3:19 PM

    This topic in a nutshell is described in Willis post about the the "amount of damage from wind hail. This is the real world of adjusting, as long as carriers can keep getting more money for hazard insurance determined only  by paid losses to settle all claims, even those disputed claims at the lowest level of the claim tree(roof claims); cost of defense will always win out.

    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


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    11/29/2010 3:20 PM

    This topic in a nutshell is described in Willis post about the the "amount of damage from wind hail. This is the real world of adjusting, as long as carriers can keep getting more money for hazard insurance determined only by paid losses to settle all claims, even those disputed claims at the lowest level of the claim tree(roof claims); cost of defense will always win out.

    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


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    12/03/2010 1:23 PM

    Ray, you've got a run on sentence even without the phrase after the semicolon. Are you saying that when the pressure is on, carriers will fold like a cheap suit to settle their claims?

    That thinking infers that some carriers may adjust their claims in the absence of sound principles just so they can save a buck.

    My approach: use sound principles on the front end by taking your time, stick to the facts and avoid a bean counter approach. I've seen too many supplements and those that enter Appraisal because the adjuster wanted to rush his inspection or the paperwork only to have the carrier nickel and dime their way through a loss they didn’t inspect.

    The reasons for rushing involve anything from crappy fee schedules to unscrupulous principles like requiring 'torn backing' in order to consider repair/replacement for hail damage.
     

    Shotgun1053
    Guest
    Guest
    Posts:3


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    12/20/2011 12:15 PM

    I am a staff adjuster of more than 13 yrs.  I could not agree mre with your comments.  Our company used HAAG for many years, but due to litigation involving claims, our position is changed to utilize a number of different firms.  The HAAG studies from years ago remain solid and provide a good starting point.  I have always maintained that we should defend our position in court, however that requires solid investigating and good communication with the customer, best accomplished at the time of inspection.  It always amazes me when a contractor that the homeowner knows nothing about, has more influence than the adjuster.  The company I work for has NEVER suggested that we NOT pay for the damages we find.  Therein may be some of the problem.  There is no substitute for experience!  Getting to that point can often be an uncomfortable journey.   

    Roy Estes
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:150


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    04/02/2012 3:33 PM

    There are carriers who are resorting to using "Engineers" to perform roof inspections. I have inspected behind several engineers and for a g-note they tell the carriers what an experienced Adjuster should have already told them, the problem is the carriers lower their fee bills and expect to get GA's when the only one's who will work are newbies. And when that happens you get what you pay for. And then the IA Firms are trying to pay 60% I hear. I told one engineer he didn't know the difference between a blister, and a hail hit, and Another one on a Commercial built up roof, called a blistered roof a "Severely hail damaged roof" when the Dude should know that when the built up is hot mopped on, and there is moisture you will get blisters it is that simple.

     

    "Each of us as human beings has a responsibility to reach out to help our brothers and sisters affected by disasters. One day it may be us or our loved ones needing someone to reach out and help." RC ESTES
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