PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 10/01/2010 11:38 AM by  Ray Hall
Is the Independent Adjuster Fast Becoming Obsolete?
 36 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Author Messages
CatAdjusterX
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts:964


--
09/24/2010 3:26 PM

    I have written  more than few times about with Satellite roof technology , the fact that Xactimate is now fully integrated with EagleView and with Sketch , once the adjuster enters the sketch properties, that building is forever archived and future measurements are but a few keystrokes away from a desk adjuster's viewing.

    Are we in someway the architects of our own demise ? I mean think about , every home we diagram today is one less home that will need an adjuster to physically measure its dimensions should said property befall any future perils tomorrow.

    The genius of the suits at Xactware headquarters is in the details as we as adjusters are paying them (Xactware) a monthly fee to document these homes dimensions and essentially working ourselves out of a job.

    Someone has said recently that those claim documents including measurements cannot be used by Xactware because they  are owned by the vendors and carriers and NOT by Xactware as claim information is proprietary.

    The particulars of a specific claim are proprietary, but the dimensions of said property is in fact public domain( hence fly over (satellites and small planes) and this public domain extends to interior dimensions as well.

    So it doesn't take a genius to figure out at some point that Xactware will include fully integrated claim service from A to Z and many claims can be handled over the phone.

    Below is a little tidbit of information on a recent Xactware developement:

    Xactimate Express is an online application that lets desk adjusters efficiently gather loss information, create detailed estimates, and settle small claims over the phone. “We built Xactimate Express with ease of use in mind to optimize the claims experience for both insurers and policyholders,” said Jim Loveland, Xactware’s president and CEO. “With just a minimal amount of training, anyone from new users to seasoned pros can generate the comprehensive estimates needed to settle small claims swiftly.”

    Xactimate Express contains an intuitive dashboard and many features that help adjusters quickly estimate replacement costs for structural and contents items, reduce claims cycle times, and improve customer satisfaction, while keeping training needs and technical questions to a minimum.

    For example, if a burglar breaks into a home and steals personal belongings, an adjuster can immediately discuss the loss with the policyholder over the phone. As the policyholder describes the loss, the adjuster can compile a list of structural repair items, such as replacing broken glass, repairing drywall, and painting. Up-to-date local construction costs are used to calculate the cost of repairs. At the same time, the adjuster can enter replacements for stolen property, such as an iPod or a Sony VAIO laptop. Xactimate Express provides the adjuster with costs for these stolen items based on prices charged by major retailers. If an item is obsolete, Xactimate Express will suggest similar items with the same features.

    “Xactimate Express is a huge step forward for the insurance industry,” said Loveland. “Policyholders will be pleased to receive immediate settlements based on current local costs. Insurers will see significantly improved efficiency from their desk adjusters, and they will be able to adjust more losses over the phone without having to deploy adjusters to the field.”

     

    Well, what do y'all think ?

    Robby Robinson

     

     

    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    Tags: On The Job
    0
    StormSupport
    Gold Member
    Member
    Member
    Posts:203


    --
    09/24/2010 4:13 PM

    The exact (or is that Xact?) Date and time Skynet became self aware was......

     

    Do the right thing, ALWAYS
    ~Meg~
    0
    CatAdjusterX
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:964


    --
    09/24/2010 10:41 PM
    Posted By Meg on 24 Sep 2010 04:13 PM

    The exact (or is that Xact?) Date and time Skynet became self aware was......

     

    Terminator right ?

     

    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    0
    StormSupport
    Gold Member
    Member
    Member
    Posts:203


    --
    09/24/2010 11:07 PM

    LOL , yeah, amazing how some of those sci-fi stories are frighteningly like predictions, eh?   

    Do the right thing, ALWAYS
    ~Meg~
    0
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:1110


    --
    09/25/2010 10:09 AM
    Technology will never replace boots on the ground. If anything technology will increase the role of experienced adjusters "experts".
    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/25/2010 10:29 AM

    The precise answer is no. The history of IA,s is long one. Just think back to about WWII. A lot of staff adjusters were now in the armed forces and the claims still had to be worked. This is probably when some older staff adjusters saw an opertunity to open an office in a small town in America and get all the claims he could say grace over from the carriers in for away lands like NY, Chicago, San Francisco.

    When I started in 1955 GAB was the largest property IA in the USA, Crawford & Co, was the largest casualty firm, but both had property & casualty departments. In a large city like Houston we had 3 to 5 person I office that worked for mutual carriers only and same with the stock carriers. IA,s have always lived off of "Overflow" work and always will. What put your best adjuster out in the field on a large fire loss that that will take 40-50 hours of work, give it to an IA who will do a great job and our great adjuster will close30 to 40 claims in the same time frame. The anser is still no., But why hire any one to go out in the field, to settle losses when you can get all the information needed to "document the fille requirements" and close more from the office.

    Just think how hard it was for us old auto/casualty adjusters to adapt to telephone recorded statements, instead of face to face type writer statements. I recall about 30 of us were trained in one  8 hours day and lost our company car and gas card.

    0
    StormSupport
    Gold Member
    Member
    Member
    Posts:203


    --
    09/25/2010 6:24 PM
    Posted By ChuckDeaton on 25 Sep 2010 10:09 AM
    Technology will never replace boots on the ground. If anything technology will increase the role of experienced adjusters "experts".



     

    That was basically my first thought too, Chuck, when I first read Robby's post.  I thought, just because they have measurements, it doesn't validate or inspect the loss.  If all claims could be handled from the desk we'd have no purpose, but thankfully, that's not the case.  I feel quite certain that for losses over a certain value, there will always be the need for an adjuster to inspect.  If that weren't the case how would potential fraud be controlled?  I suppose adjusters will always be a necessary player in the mix of insureds, contractors and adjuster (company eyes & ears).

    Do the right thing, ALWAYS
    ~Meg~
    0
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:1110


    --
    09/25/2010 8:14 PM

    "That was basically my first thought too, Chuck, when I first read Robby's post. I thought, just because they have measurements, it doesn't validate or inspect the loss. If all claims could be handled from the desk we'd have no purpose, but thankfully, that's not the case. I feel quite certain that for losses over a certain value, there will always be the need for an adjuster to inspect. If that weren't the case how would potential fraud be controlled? I suppose adjusters will always be a necessary player in the mix of insureds, contractors and adjuster (company eyes & ears)."  Stormcrow

    I expect what you say is true, but there is another angle that storm adjusters either don't see or just don't pay attention to and that is what happened with TWIA and the "lifted shingle". You know that TWIA would not pay for "lifted tabs" that is unsealed tabs on a three tab composition shingle roof. Once again the Mostyn Law Firm has proved that trial lawyers are the ultimate police. My point is that every loss and especially similar losses that are wide spread have to be properly inspected otherwise an instant class action law suit is created. Should a class action make it to court someone has to testify both as a "fact" witness and as an "expert" witness.

    The penalty for screwing up the process is enormous. The Mostyn Law Firm settled one case for $189 million.

    Boots on the ground adjusters will never go away and the opportunity to work as an "Expert" expands every year. Plaintiffs attorneys already rail at Xactimate and its use. I was just involved in a Katrina loss where the "newbie" adjuster did not download the proper price list and did not adjust for post Katrina pricing. The case was force in to settlement because of this. Can you imagine what would happen if an admitted company never set foot on an insured's property, just denied the claim or underpaid it, or several thousand, based on satelitte imagery?


    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    0
    CatAdjusterX
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:964


    --
    09/25/2010 9:35 PM
    Posted By ChuckDeaton on 25 Sep 2010 08:14 PM

    "That was basically my first thought too, Chuck, when I first read Robby's post. I thought, just because they have measurements, it doesn't validate or inspect the loss. If all claims could be handled from the desk we'd have no purpose, but thankfully, that's not the case. I feel quite certain that for losses over a certain value, there will always be the need for an adjuster to inspect. If that weren't the case how would potential fraud be controlled? I suppose adjusters will always be a necessary player in the mix of insureds, contractors and adjuster (company eyes & ears)."  Stormcrow

    I expect what you say is true, but there is another angle that storm adjusters either don't see or just don't pay attention to and that is what happened with TWIA and the "lifted shingle". You know that TWIA would not pay for "lifted tabs" that is unsealed tabs on a three tab composition shingle roof. Once again the Mostyn Law Firm has proved that trial lawyers are the ultimate police. My point is that every loss and especially similar losses that are wide spread have to be properly inspected otherwise an instant class action law suit is created. Should a class action make it to court someone has to testify both as a "fact" witness and as an "expert" witness.

    The penalty for screwing up the process is enormous. The Mostyn Law Firm settled one case for $189 million.

    Boots on the ground adjusters will never go away and the opportunity to work as an "Expert" expands every year. Plaintiffs attorneys already rail at Xactimate and its use. I was just involved in a Katrina loss where the "newbie" adjuster did not download the proper price list and did not adjust for post Katrina pricing. The case was force in to settlement because of this. Can you imagine what would happen if an admitted company never set foot on an insured's property, just denied the claim or underpaid it, or several thousand, based on satelitte imagery?


    I sure hope you are right Chuck, you and Meg have grand arguments against our demise, I just know that sometimes the powers that be don't always follow logic.

     

    Robby Robinson

     

    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 9:15 AM

    I for one who has been looking at wind losses for over 50 years, have seen somthing in Texas that goes to three legs of the claim stool that is et up in the barn on uneven ground and very poor conditions. Leg one is the inpectiong adjuster, leg two is the estimationg program and leg three is the insurace industry rules, guide lines, manuals and so forth. The unhappy policy holder anly needs to (green stick)  crack one of the legs, and the all the evidence sitting on the stool falls backwards in the cow dung.

    The only leg that has real strencth is if the working adjuster is out of state(get the case in federal court).The allegation of  run and gun, the  only software, guidelines is prima facia evidence AND the carriers know this. The biggies is the plaintiff,s know these cases will never go to trial.

    Look for policys to go to ACV on roof membrane.s just like fences. Nothing else will keep the premium affordable. I look for the large windstorm deductible to be considered as co -insurace by the courts, which is not permitted on dwellings or contents therin by the fire insurance conventions.

    Chuck is correct the top 10% will always work.

    0
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:1110


    --
    09/26/2010 10:58 AM

    "I sure hope you are right Chuck, you and Meg have grand arguments against our demise, I just know that sometimes the powers that be don't always follow logic." Robby Robinson

    All will agree when I say that the global insurance market has many segments and sub segments. Sure there are segments, primarily the mutual and stock, admitted companies that dominate the homeowners market, who use integrate satelite technology and will eventually come to depend on that use. Those companies will be able to scan zip codes, measuring residential risks. Yes, any competent company will database the measurements, I suspect that USAA is already doing this, and at some time a technology will emerge that will identify hail hits. There will be storms that are severe enough to justify scanning and paying for all identified, insured loss as a total loss, in a zip code. That is essentially what was done with flood losses in NOLA in 2005. The methods were different, but the result was the same. Inside adjusters paid losses to the limit of coverage based on a list of factors. And there have been other instances where this has been accomplished. A smart company would data base images and compare before and after.

    But my previous comment stands, law firms, such as the Florida based Merlin firm and the Texas based Mostyn firm are the police and will keep the independent adjuster in the game. Each insured has a contract, that is skewed against the insurance company, and the various states have reams of consumer based insurance law that is skewed against the insurance company.  The coastal states moved to protect the consumer, at the expense of the insurance carrier, but even inland Arkansas has a Fair Claims Practices act. The defacto fines are the settlements and judgements acheived in class action. Just let that satelite go haywire and provide inaccurate measurements for thousands of claims. Mostyn and Merlin will be all over, advertising and representing.

    To my mind there is no question that independent adjusters are here to stay. The field will change as it has already changed. The warlocks on this site remember the old GAB form 109 and how claims were handled using it. I used it, a pencil, a carpenters rule and a rotary calculator to handle thousands of claims. We moved from doing everything with a pencil to where we are now, but the trade did not go away.

    The trade may be like the railroad industry which moved from steam to diesel electromotive and computers and in the process the work force declined from millions to a little over a hundred thousand, but the railroads handle more freight than ever.

    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    0
    Ol' Ghost
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:279


    --
    09/26/2010 11:55 AM
    "TOOT! TOOT!, said the Little Engine That Could. Oh my, the trestle bridge is out, but yet the computer image from yesterdays satellite scan says it's still there. Never mind, I always place my faith in technology." "Toot! Toot! Tootsie, good-by!"

    Ol' Ghost
    0
    Bobabooey
    Member
    Member
    Posts:140


    --
    09/26/2010 5:29 PM
    If roof measurements were that crucial to the carrier then they could simply buy an eagle view before insuring the home.
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 5:52 PM

    While we are on tec. have all you wind/flood adjusters ever wondered why the industry does lease out the best system for the 24 hour expected land fall to record which came first wind-water? on a tidal wave and high winds in a cat. 1,2.3 or 4. I say forget 5, because its a 50/50 or 100% if just one policy is pne the property. Back to the low value homes in MOLA in Katrina. It would take someone with balls like FEMA to come up with a $750 fee bill on a house with 7 foot of water inside. It would also take some very bad management decisions by a lot of carriers to say all the slabs in MS. was all water and put the light weights on the most difficult and complex claims .

    If it was not from greed of one large law firm in MS this would have been the 10 times more costly than it was. in MS. If Texas does not go ACV on roof losses and we get another cane and the 80 year old appraisal cluse is not modified to give the carrier a 50/50 chance all 4 GOM and about 1/2 of the Atlantic states will become uninsurable for windstorm under the HO.

    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 6:09 PM
    If I was the shot caller on a baseball size hail with straight down hail. I would send 4 adjusters into town within hours and find the starting and stopping point of the hail the zip codes run, pull the data and wait for the phones to start ringing. I would use all the measuring devices available and have adjusters standing by their HOME phone and expect each adjuster to contact and settle 20 per day from home @ $50.00 each. I would have 10 people in the area to work clean up with no charge backs.
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 6:12 PM

    This is not trying to get rid of cat. adjusters it,s just a more cost effective way of doing what needs to be done, settle losses in a fair manner. This would make cat. adjusting a second job for many, and yearly part time work for many and also give the seekers of good people a smaller; but better pool to select from.

    Why do you think vendors love retired militay people, because most of them are excellant adjusters.

    0
    ChuckDeaton
    Life Member
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:1110


    --
    09/26/2010 7:06 PM
    While it may be cost effective on the front end, considering that anyone could or would settle claims over the phone, after Hurricane Gustav a million people left South Louisiana and they overloaded the phone system, the overall cost of claims and the cost of claims handling is considered by any company. TWIA is paying out another $189 million because of poor claims handling and there were boots on the ground. Imagine what trial attorneys would be able to do if each claim had not been investigated, that is the roof climbed, measured and inspected. Without a "fact" witnesses to testify and violation of a Fair Claims Practices Act, trial attorneys would bankrupt an insurance company.

    No, IA's are here to stay.
    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
    0
    Goldust
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:306


    --
    09/26/2010 10:30 PM

     

       We are the carrier's insurance against fraud . There is no way that can be replaced. They would have to raise deductibles above the price of roof replacement.

     

    No matter how you feel, get up, dress up and show up

    JERRY TAYLOR
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 10:41 PM

    If the right hand does not get you the left will. You you send out the best adjuster in the world to settle a hurricane loss, that would be great. But if this person could be cloned enough times to settle all losses. They are not really settled until you get a contract from the insured saying. I have gotten enough and they have over 2 years to do this. The attorneys do not want cases in the first month are two. This gives the homeowner time to build their case. They use the adjusters words and evidence to make their case. Better still is the "advance payment" thats the carriers estimate and check, that is all thats needed.

    When the attorneys get involved the adjusters estimate is the first document looked at. When the lawyers get their experts estimate its a couple hundred thousand more than the best adjuster in the world,s "first advance payment". The carrier will always have defense attorneys file and answer, and try to get the vendor and the adjuster non suited (and they always will)

    Now the legal justive system is full bloom, the judge in each county in charge of all the hurricane lawsuits demans mediation to help the courts backlog of lawsuits. Defense lawyers and adjusters are begging for "appraisal provisions, before the default date and the standard answer is "I will take it under advisement". Defense attorney and carrier gets cold feet and files answer and begins to attend mediation which is still in the wild blue younder range, its thrrow back in the pot and settled the 2 nd mediation for well over $125,000 plus  defense lawyers cost. I don, think ONE Ike case has been tried in Harris, Galveston, Jefferson or Orange County, Tx.

    I don,t hink one expert witness for the defense has been called in all of TX. I don,t know one insurance adjuster, nor have I heard of one who has been hauled into court or give a deposition. I work for two small carriers and they do not know of any either. If 10,000 cases are filed  in TX. How many How many hundred years would it take to get a jury trial. I will bet all the Tx. Ike cases will be settled in the next year.The lasuits were never ment to be tried to jury.

    It seems strange to me that I have been on the stand only one time in my life on a claim I was the  adjuster on, if they use adjusters as fact witnesses.

    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/26/2010 10:51 PM

    I think 95% of all policy holders are very loyal to their insuror, its the other % that cost so much. The appraisal clause has to be changed to give both side,s an inexpensive way to settle disputes.

    0
    CatAdjusterX
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:964


    --
    09/26/2010 10:57 PM
    Posted By Ray Hall on 26 Sep 2010 06:12 PM

    This is not trying to get rid of cat. adjusters it,s just a more cost effective way of doing what needs to be done, settle losses in a fair manner. This would make cat. adjusting a second job for many, and yearly part time work for many and also give the seekers of good people a smaller; but better pool to select from.

    Why do you think vendors love retired militay people, because most of them are excellant adjusters.


    Well there you go then, I always thougtht I was destined for CAT adjusting because I was born on the same day that Camille made landfall

    (August 18, 1969) along the Gulfcoast, power out , no dr. just a midwife and a few candles for light.
     

    Now maybe , just maybe the reason I even got a shot to run with the heavies was because I am in fact retired military and the powers that be took a chance. ( I was medically retired from injuries sustained during Operation Desert Storm Jan. 1991)

     

    Robby Robinson

     

    "A good leader leads..... ..... but a great leader is followed !!" CatAdjusterX@gmail.com
    0
    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


    --
    09/28/2010 5:00 PM
    Posted By ChuckDeaton on 25 Sep 2010 10:09 AM
    Technology will never replace boots on the ground. If anything technology will increase the role of experienced adjusters "experts".
    Chuck's statement above needs to be restated in light of its validity; simple and true.  He may have different reasons for coming to this conclusion, but below I describe mine.

    I am a daily adjuster and will work a cat if my work is slow and it is a one or two week assignment.  The other condition is if the cat is major and there is a justifiable reason to deploy my large loss team.
     
    From my standpoint, I've seen a resurgence of contractor-connection and fast track (cat or daily) programs that eliminate the need to pay an adjuster to work routine, no-nonsense claims.  The daily claims that I continue to see are large losses and those that involve tricky coverage issues.  These scenarios are not the place for a 'profit' minded contractor who is not astute with the policy and coverage issues (or even one that is too versed).  These claims will always require the use of the even tempered, diplomatic adjuster who is skilled in construction, communication, etc. 
     
    Catastrophe assignments will continue to decrease proportionately to the amount of useful technology out there.  You tend to see a decrease in contractor connection type assignments, but an uptick of computerized estimates, fast track adjustments, and a reliance on satellite and aerial assistance.  The change here will do the same as in the daily realm- the experienced large loss adjusters who communicate their construction and coverage expertise without binding coverage prior to carrier approval.
     
    The team approach is not a novel concept and has been used for years.  The adjuster benefits so they can pave his/her way through the complexities of adjusting the claim.  During this time, his team is deployed to the rather mundane and repitious tasks of collecting data and recording it into a document that we call an estimate.  This is also done by property appraisal firms for homeowner claims whereby chicken scratch scope sheets are emailed along with photographs to the vendor who compiles them into professional reports.
     
    As I ruminate over this subject, this is nothing more than the result of a wonderful capitalistic empire that has used the concept of manufacturing at its best.  The ones who will survive are those with the right attitude- willing to learn new tricks.  Chuck's always amazed me at his willingness to be one of the first to try out new technology without being afraid or cynical of the fact the approach may not work.
    0
    linhoch
    Member
    Member
    Posts:33


    --
    09/28/2010 5:06 PM
    "In times of change, learners inherit the Earth," wrote philosopher Eric Hoffer, "while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists."

    Just happened upon this quote and thought it may be relevant to this thread.
    0
    Jud G.
    Senior Member
    Senior Member
    Posts:509


    --
    09/28/2010 5:16 PM
    Posted By CatAdjusterX on 26 Sep 2010 10:57 PM
    Posted By Ray Hall on 26 Sep 2010 06:12 PM

    This is not trying to get rid of cat. adjusters it,s just a more cost effective way of doing what needs to be done, settle losses in a fair manner. This would make cat. adjusting a second job for many, and yearly part time work for many and also give the seekers of good people a smaller; but better pool to select from.

    Why do you think vendors love retired militay people, because most of them are excellant adjusters.


    Well there you go then, I always thougtht I was destined for CAT adjusting because I was born on the same day that Camille made landfall

    (August 18, 1969) along the Gulfcoast, power out , no dr. just a midwife and a few candles for light.
     

    Now maybe , just maybe the reason I even got a shot to run with the heavies was because I am in fact retired military and the powers that be took a chance. ( I was medically retired from injuries sustained during Operation Desert Storm Jan. 1991)

     

    Robby Robinson

     
    The reason why is because military people have been to boot camp and taught manners; how to take orders when you're tired, how to take orders when you think the superior is an idiot, how to keep working even when you're tired, etc.  This supports my point above about having the right attitude.
     
    Cat adjusting does not require unique or technical skills, but having a military or sports background certainly tells recruiters that the prospective employee is likely very well groomed.
    0
    Ray Hall
    Posts:2443


    --
    09/28/2010 8:30 PM
    I meet roofers all the time at the risk. I call the insured and ask for an appointment time that day or the next. 80% state they will have to call me back, that means a door knocker stirred up another wind lift claim. I do a lot of ACV only on roofs over 10 years, but most are pro/rata from date the application shows.
     
    I have never met a roofer on wind lift that agreed the shingle   could be resealed by a workman . They are all R &R 100% or the court house. I expect TX. to change their HO coverage in some manner on roofs. I also expect carriers will have to stop sending out 2-3 adjusters, until the roof is totaled. This is bad faith when it had to have 3 adjusters to total out a roof that was a minimum  repair before IKE.
     
    No more maximun depreciation of 50%. Thats bad faith in writing
    0
    You are not authorized to post a reply.
    Page 1 of 212 > >>


    These Forums are dedicated to discussion of Claims Adjusting.

    For the benefit of the community and to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, please observe the following posting guidelines: 
    • No Advertising. 
    • No vendor trolling / poaching. If someone posts about a vendor issue, allow the vendor or others to respond. Any post that looks like trolling / poaching will be removed.
    • No Flaming or Trolling.
    • No Profanity, Racism, or Prejudice.
    • Terms of Use Apply

      Site Moderators have the final word on approving / removing a thread or post or comment.