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Last Post 09/12/2009 7:30 PM by  dnjsdad
What is this roof?
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dnjsdad
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09/10/2009 12:48 PM

    Please look at the photo and let me know what kind of roof you think this is.

     

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    chipolariverman
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    09/10/2009 1:52 PM
    It is a barrel roof that has standing seam metal on it. I guess that is what you were asking.
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    Ray Hall
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    09/10/2009 1:57 PM
    Its painted metal. Probably made by 20 factory's that has turned out metal roof in the last 30 years
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    dnjsdad
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    09/10/2009 3:03 PM

    Insured is stating that it is a copper roof standing seam roof with a replacement cost of almost $164K per the bid that they provided.  This pricing puts it at $2000.00 a square.  I thought it looked like a normal metal roof, how do I tell for sure if it is copper, any help would be appreciated.  The roof isnt painted, and is somewhat iridescent.  Could this be copper?

     

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    linhoch
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    09/10/2009 3:33 PM

    Taste it.  If it taste likes a penny it's copper.  On the other hand real copper usually turns green with age. 

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    Ray Hall
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    09/10/2009 4:11 PM

    He is pulling your leg.I haen a few copper roofs, but I have never seen one painted. They turn green from the weathering effect. Get some brass polish and polish a small sample and see if the green color comes up. Take some paint remover and try to remove the paint. Were is the damage and what caused the damage. Get in the attic and look at the bottom and if its the same as the top, its not copper. This looks like a motel roof to me I have seen them in this color, green, rust, and beige. royal blue etc.

    I I do noy see any damage in this shot from any source. This is paint, probably baked on enamel. Oxidation of the paint has taken place. Just spit on it and rub hard and you will se for yourself.Why not print out all the photos and you will get 10 good opines to help you.


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    ddreisbach
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    09/10/2009 4:16 PM
    I'd put a deep scratch in it, in an inconspicuous location of course. That should tell you if it's solid copper.
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    chipolariverman
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    09/10/2009 4:56 PM

    I just done a quick search on the web and copper roofs do turn green!!! I would think if he had this roof installed he would have the original invoice if for nothing else for warranty purpose. Here is the link to what I found.

    http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320533...r-roof.htm  

    But I am with Ray, where is the damage at and from what? If it is hail, I know that there are some endorsements out there that deals with an apperance allownace kinda thing when it comes to metal roofs and hail damage, or in my case in FL flying debris from hurricanes.

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    chipolariverman
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    09/10/2009 4:58 PM
    By the way just done a quick search in Xact and depending on the thickness if it is copper it's about $1300/sq for R&R a standing seam copper roof.
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    sbeau4014
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    09/10/2009 7:32 PM
    As stated by others, copper roofs do yurn green when they oxidize, and you would probably see evidence of that color in the gutters also. Scratching or using a copper polish in a spot that won't be noticed will show the real copper if it is one, and even taking water and a stiff rag will probably do the trick.. I would also think that they would have the original invoicing on it if it had that type of value. If it turns to be a true copper roof, it would be prudent to get some solid bid figures on it as there will be huge differences in the pricing. And finally, you will get a huge salvage value to the materials, and it is worth taking the salvage, or getting a bid and taking the credit. If it is a hail claim and a standing seam roof, it takes some pretty good size hail to dent it, but copper may be a softer material then steel.
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    RJortberg
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    09/10/2009 8:21 PM

    I have seen copper roofs in the mountains, and the color of the roof in this picture is very uniform. I'd venture to guess its a powder coat, but pics can be deceiving.

    The insured can prove it's a copper roof with the invoice, but he/she can also prove it w/ just a dab of polish to take off the patina in a non-exposed area... No need to scratch it, and you may need a bit more than just a scratch for pics anyway. Good point about salvage value. Here's something from a website:

    "To remove tarnish from copper pots, rub with lemon halves dipped in salt.... Tarnished Copper: Polish with a commercial polish for copper following directions on the container. Polish can be made at home by moistening salt with vinegar or lemon juice to make a paste for a bright finish or a paste of rotten-stone and olive oil for a dull finish. After polishing decorative items, spray with lacquer to preserve color if desired.

    http://www.doityourself.com/stry/copper

     

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    ddreisbach
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    09/10/2009 8:43 PM

    It struck me that the green copper patina shown in the picture was too even - almost painted on.  Then I remembered that the patina can be pre-applied to speed up the process.  Revere Copper Products does it:  www.reverecopper.com/evergreen2.html

    You can also buy aluminum coil stock coated with a faux copper patina.  So you have to get through the green to the base metal to be sure what you've got. 

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    Leland
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    09/10/2009 8:53 PM
    it's painted in my opinion. the tarnished green color of copper isn't that light. Tarnished copper is more of a sea foam green (bluish green). You can add a patina to copper gutters by spritzing them with any kind of acid like vinegar or diluted muriatic acid (for pools). It is a different green color and variegated (splotchy or uneven). If it ages naturally it won't be so uneven. You can also fake a copper look by spraypainting a copper color and then daubing sea foam green on it. This of course would be an example of a "faux" finish (Faux is french for fake). This is just a painted roof that has faded in the sun a bit, the way it looks in the photos.

    As far as this roof goes just look at the metal ridge pieces. They are trimmed to fit at the end. You will be able to see on the edge where it is cut that they are not copper.

    Very fine steel wool or autobody sand paper would also polish up a small hidden spot and reveal if it is copper. If its not you would need to spot prime and paint that spot so it doesn't rust. You could remove that little cap at the intersection of the ridges to find a hidden spot. Kind of like the TV show "mythbusters" where they do experiments to see if what people believe is really true.

    If you really wanted to you could do a "forensic" examination. One of the ridge pieces could be unscrewed, examined, and put back. If the insured is claiming copper, which might be $50,000 extra, you could even pay a metallurgist or physics professor or some other kind of super expert to look at it. Or a roofer would study it for free.

    By the way, does a magnet stick to it? Copper is not magnetic. Galvanized steel is. Aluminum is not.

    Have some empathy for the insured- maybe the roofer or the seller of the building told him it was copper!
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    dnjsdad
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    09/10/2009 10:01 PM

    Insured stated that the roof was that color when he purchased it, he will not provide an original reciept, we have requested it several times.  The roof is 2-3 years old and has hail damage to it.  The owner is a GC and this is a spec house.  Here are some additional photos.

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    dnjsdad
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    09/10/2009 10:33 PM

    I found the roof, the insured has it in there real estate listing as galv alum.   Thank you for all of your input.  Any futher information that you might find helpful would be appreciated.  Such as,  How would you approach this situation?

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    Leland
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    09/10/2009 11:07 PM
    you can forward photos to a roofing supply company. I've done that before with good results.

    you can also ask the insured to put it in writing that it is copper. If an an insured tells a story that they know is not true and they do it in a letter many carriers would deny the whole claim, not just the part they lied about.

    you can pull copies of the building permit which will have information about cost and materials and probably the name of the roofer. Depending on the city the permit would still be in their files after only two years. People often understate the cost on the permit to save money on the permit fees or avoid code upgrade rules, but many times the permitee must state the dollar value of the project.

    check out the policy- here's an example from a policy that is similar to an HO3

    "Your duties after loss....

    d. prepare an inventory of the loss to the building and damaged personal property showing the quantity, description and amount of loss. Attach all bills, receipts and related documents that justify the figures ...

    e. as often as we reasonably require;

    1) exhibit the damaged property;
    2) provide us with records and documents we request and permit us to make copies...


    If the insured refuses to show the receipt he is violating his duties in the policy especially if you request it from him in writing.

    You as an adjuster need to perform a thorough investigation, and if you determine its copper you should pay accordingly even if the insured is uncooperative. But if you really can't verify it and the insured is blocking your investigation you could pay for the value of a non-copper metal roof and make it an "undisputed amount". Then you could send a partial denial letter for the extra value of copper, and explain that the insured hasn't proven his loss or followed the duties or both. You could specifically state that once the old roof is removed he can "exhibit" one of the panels for inspection so that you can continue with the adjustment.

    You can also advise him that if it is copper the insurance company has the right to the salvage value.

    One more idea on checking it is to look from inside the attic. Lots of flooring has the factory name and codes on the underside, I don't think sheet metal does but it might be a good idea to look. Also the color of the metal might reveal that it's not copper.

    But the easiest thing is just to scratch it with a pocket knife and be done with all this complication. I wouldn't worry about scratching a roof that you already agree needs replacement.

    You can ask the insured- are you going to replace this roof? Are you sure? You're going to tear it off and start over? When he answers YES, YES, YES then cut a piece off or scratch it real good.

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    Leland
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    09/10/2009 11:17 PM
    I wrote my answer before your last post re galv. alum.

    Deny the copper. Put a copy of the real estate listing in your file. You can still cut a piece from an inconspicuous area. Photograph the area you cut it from. Put the piece in a baggie. Seal the baggie with tape. Write the name and the date over the tape. Photograph it and email the photograph to yourself. Write a note to yourself regarding what you did. Sign and date the note. Mention everything in your report.

    Your evidence will be bulletproof if you do what I say.

    If you don't believe me its because you haven't been deposed about how you collected evidence.

    Anyone else know the best way to establish a chain of custody feel free to chime in, I'm not an expert.
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    dnjsdad
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    09/10/2009 11:56 PM

    Thank you, I really appreciate all the input.  The insured stated during the original inspection that he was not going to replace the roof until he had a buyer for the home, so cutting a piece of the roof my not work, any other suggestions.  I have my file well documented up to this point on what I have done, but anything that you veterans do that might be wise and prudent in this situation would be well appreciated.

    Thanks again,

    Jason

     

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    Leland
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    09/11/2009 2:25 AM
    If it was me I would really look hard to find a hidden place to cut a little piece off or at least rub or scratch a hidden area. Usually these kind of roofs are held down with self tapping screws that have kind of a washer area and a rubber washer under the head. They have a hex head. At the very top of the roof you could loosen or remove a small piece of ridge cap and expose an edge that is normally under another piece. Get a roofer to go up there with you, have him do it. He can also document that he didn't hurt anything.

    I just think if there's a situation where the insured is stubbornly insisting its copper and there's a lot of money involved the adjuster needs to go the extra mile to really document the truth.

    How much money is the difference?

    Here's what I might do: If it's $20,000.00 I might ask a roofer to stop by and eyeball it. If it's a $50,000.00 difference I will get on the roof with the roofer and video tape our investigation. If it's $100,000.00 I'm going to ask the carrier which forensic engineer they want me to send out.

    I can guarantee you that if its a $100,000.00 difference the carrier will be happy to pay an outside expert and they won't question my fee bill when I bill for 2 hours to go to city hall and pull a copy of the building permit.

    If this goes to appraisal or trial you will be glad you did as thorough an investigation as you could because it will be much harder and more expensive to investigate once it gets that far, plus its good faith and professional to thoroughly investigate especially when there is a dispute.

    Another possible thing I would do is email photos to roof supply companies like I mentioned before.

    What does your boss or the file examiner tell you to do?

    Is this a daily claim or cat claim? If its a cat is someone else going to follow behind you and deal with this?

    Who is going to write the (partial) denial letter ?

    Another thing you can do is ask the insured (in writing) to have a a meeting between you and him, your roofer and his roofer.

    If this really is not copper I wonder if you have really tried to reach agreement with the insured and why the insured appears to be digging in his heels- is he really serious? Is he trying to commit fraud? Is he honestly misinformed about his roof? Maybe it really is copper but it doesn't look like it to me. Have you tried to discuss it diplomatically?

    There is no reason to accuse the insured of lying, this is not the US Congress. Just explain to him that your investigation reveals that it is not copper, or that he has not proven that it is copper, or maybe you want to say your investigation reveals that it IS aluminum. Maybe he will finally agree and then instead of a partial denial you can send a letter which states that it is your understanding that he now agrees it is not copper, and he should notify you ASAP if your understanding is incorrect, and that you are recommending payment based on aluminum.

    If you did a recorded interview it might be interesting.

    There are a million different things you could do, mostly I think you need guidance from whoever is paying your bill, use common sense and do what you can reasonably do to investigate without running up the bill unneccesarily but at the same time making sure that you are paying what's fair and protecting the carrier's interest.

    Why are you up so late? I'm in California. This claim has got you staying up all night?
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    Leland
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    09/11/2009 2:41 AM
    For that much money the carrier would agree to have you solicit bids from 2 or 3 roofers. Ask the roofers to comment on what the existing material is. Base your adjustment of the claim on the roofers' bids. Send copies of the bids to the insured.

    If three roofers tell you its aluminum you can deny the claim for copper and you can do it in good faith.

    And if it goes to trial the carrier will have 3 expert witnesses to call on.

    Probably what I would do is just call a professional roof inspector. I use a really good one that charges about $500.00 Their reports are really detailed and they have years of experience going to court. Most times the professional roof inspector has the same conclusion that I did but they have more credibility because they are super EXPERTS with tons and tons of specialized experience.
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