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I wonder if this above photo can be taken a bit out of context, Bob, because I know you like some slack behind you when you are on the climbing end of the roof. That is, if you are climbing up a slope, you want slackness below you so you can move around the roof. It also makes getting off the ladder easier because you can attach your ascender/ gri gri to the rope either before you climb up the ladder or part way when you feel you are getting exposed. The point is that when coming off the ladder onto the roof, I have full tension on the rope so that I know I'm fully supported at that point. Looking at the ladder and the tight nature of the rope in this picture, i wonder if you had pulled a lot of the slack up onto the roof with you? Or were you getting ready to go down the other side?

I also found that if I do not secure the ladder to the roof like Bob mentions, I have knocked the ladder over when I'm dragging the slack around to go to another part of the roof. Not a pretty site seeing the ladder tumble over, but at least I could use the rope to get all the way down.

Posted By RJortberg on 08 Sep 2009 10:31 PM

...Looking at the ladder and the tight nature of the rope in this picture...

It's just a photo - dunno what could be taken out of context... 
showing what Jim said about anchoring to something a bit further out so you don't pull the gutters with the rope.

I had already gone over the ridge and down the other side, away from my ladder.

That photo was taken as I pulled my way back up, near the ridge, using that tree as an anchor.  Rope secured to something on each end of the house. 

Example of similar view, showing the ridge

This whole BS about walking ever inch of a roof is just that BS. If the adjuster makes the right call, why does he have to carry a load of ladders like a chimney sweep. Most cities oin the US have a roof inspection service for a very nominal fee. Usally less than $200.00. I could settle 40-50 roof claims per day if I could do them from home. It sure would not cost $300-$400 per roof.

Posted By Ray Hall on 11 Sep 2009 09:37 PM
This whole BS about walking ever inch of a roof is just that BS.
.... Most cities oin the US have a roof inspection service for a very nominal fee. Usally less than $200.00

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I'm sure Doug appreciates your helpful suggestions on how to get his job done...

I am paid to inspect roofs, and would be embarrassed to call a "roof inspection service".

No one is saying to inspect every inch - and if you don't want to get on steep roofs you don't have to.
Your comment adds nothing to this thread.

Posted By okclarryd on 11 Sep 2009 06:16 PM
I am SO glad that you guys are willing to do this crap. But, I wonder if it is truly necessary? 

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I don't make that decision. The carrier I am working for is having me look at 2 roofs this weekend that were not inspected closely, and re-assigned to me after the measurements or scope by previous adjuster were disputed. 
Not every file will re-open, not every roof needs to be walked.
 

Posted By BennyBulger on 12 Sep 2009 12:08 AM 
... Otherwise you guys that want to do things the old way go ahead and the rest of us will leave you in the dust closing files.

And I will clean up the mess left by "run & gun" adjusting.  If you don't think there is some guesswork when peering at a roof from the eve, you haven't been doing this very long.

I live in a home with a 12/12 and I've been on it several times with no rope and harness, but I sure don't like it.

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I won't get on a 12/12 without a rope, and there is a reason why you "don't like it".  It isn't safe. 
That's the whole point of this thread.

Posted By Amart on 04 Aug 2009 08:23 PM
If the training you offer is half as good as the posts you make here, i do not expect many disappointed customers.

I think safety is one of the most overlooked things in this industry. I remember during Ike there were a few roofs i did not feel comfortable climbing and was very embarrassed by that, not wanting to call my claims manager i just decided to be a big boy and step up to the plate. One house was a 2-story on a slab, i put my ladder up by the valley and started my accent. I quickly ran up the valley and start walking the roof taking measurements. On the way back down however i decided it would be best to distribute my weight over both feet and hands. After arriving at the eave after a slow slide, i had tear in my pants and my hands were torn up and bleeding. I am not sure why but when i got to the eave and put my foot out ready to fall is when i stopped.

The next day after a long night of scrubbing my hands to get the particles out of my hand i decided i would get a pair of Cougar paws and not climb a roof i was not comfortable with. That day i had another roof about like the previous, i decided to call in a ladder assist. When i roofer arrived i was surprised to hear that he would not climb it either. So i got all my measurements via footprint and took my ladder around all the eaves to get a view of the damages.

Never again will i put my life on the line for a paycheck when i KNOW there IS A BETTER WAY, but was just too busy or lazy or whatever. When you fall off that roof and break something or worse, it will not make a difference to your injuries as to why you did not get training. They will not heal any faster or be any less severe because you were busy.

Well Said, if you like I have the calculations per pitch to use when measuring footprints, using these calculations I am always right there on actual Squares. I have the formulas available for anyone who desires them, Just email me, and ill reply my email is restes@claimsmg.com

Posted by Bob Harvey on 14 Aug 2009 
...I was on a 14/12 today, and would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  I have done it before, and know I'm not gonna fall off.  It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.  I like them for moderately steep roofs, because they are so easy to control and fast to move rope in and out of.  Anything over 10/12 or spooky loose granules, and I will prefer the "hydraulic" feel and control that a Gri-Gri has when descending with stiff 11 mm rope.

I recently made a discovery that I wanted to share with the community - but first lets look at some Rope-Grab photos

Here's a Gibbs rope grab demonstrated by Kevin Kramer during a class I attended.
I bought a Gibbs, liked it, but found I was using the Gri-Gri more.

Here's a Petzl Rescuescender. Very similar to the Gibbs, I like both of them.
I sold my Gibbs to an adjuster in need.  I bought this as a replacement grab to check out.

The Petzl Rescuescender is well made, and the release pin was designed to work with gloves on.
(see next post)

(continued)

Posted by Bob Harvey on 14 Aug 2009
...I would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  ...It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.

The "figure 8" has been around forever, it's job is to create friction - perfect for when you push against the Rope-Grab cam for descending a steep roof slope. 

If you are using a "figure 8" by itself, you are forced to constantly maintain control of the rope by holding the loose end.  The combination of a "figure 8" with a rope-grab will HALT you if hands are off the rope. 

Notice that it is on a SEPARATE CARABINER, allowing you to easily connect-disconnect the friction device.  You don't want the friction when climbing the slope.

Having a 2nd carabiner attached to your harness also makes it easier to tie-off for safety when you need to change the direction of the Rope-Grab for going down the other side of the roof (assuming your rope is tied to something on BOTH sides of the house, like to a tree front & back yard)

These photos were taken on "Bob's test hill" which is a great place to experiment and get comfortable with your gear.
Confucious say: "Falling on your ass - better than falling off roof"

Thanks Bob:

If a person likes to use a figure 8, they should consider using a rescue figure 8 instead. I have one like this, and it has ears on it that allow one to tie off their rope so that they can work hands free.  www.specialforces.com/store/catalog..._Ears.html
 

The devices like the Gri Gri still work better in my opinion.   There is another one out by Trango called the Cinch:

www.dynamicearth.net/index.php

This review link says that it is better than the Gri Gri because it feeds rope through better / easier.  I have not tried it, but for $60, it is worth a try in my mind. 

Posted By RJortberg on 01 Nov 2009 10:28 PM
...The devices like the Gri Gri still work better in my opinion.  

Yeah - and the only reason I started looking at the rope-grabs again is my rope is soooo stiff (Sterling 11mm static).   I like the Sterling rope because it has a tightly woven sheath that doesn't "fluff up" when pulled over asphalt shingles.  But it is a chore ascending & pulling it through the Gri-Gri. 

As I have mentioned before, my other static rope is very flexible (BlueWater static 10.5mm) but it started fraying right away when pulling it over a couple roofs.  I was at an REI a few weeks ago and they had a static rope made by PMI called "EZ Bend" 11mm that may be a good example of a rope that pulls more easily through the Gri-Gri.

If a person likes to use a figure 8, they should consider using a rescue figure 8 instead. I have one like this, and it has ears on it that allow one to tie off their rope so that they can work hands free.

That is what I was looking for when I had this idea of adding friction to a rope-grab for descending.  But I had limited time at my last deployment, and an REI down the street had the basic "8" for $14.95 and the other one was out of stock.

I would not personally want to use the "figure 8" by itself, but if you were using it alone - then yeah the ability to tie-off to the "ears" would be priceless.

My plan was to just add some control to descending when the rope grab is released.  On a 12/12 it is pucker-city when you push in the cam and feed the rope through your hands.  The "figure 8" added that bit of control I was looking for in that situation.

I did order one of these last week from Amazon.com and will let you know how I like it:

The Petzl Pirana Descender has a variety of ways to feed the rope for varying friction.

There is another one out by Trango called the Cinch:
www.dynamicearth.net/index.php  
This review link says that it is better than the Gri Gri because it feeds rope through better / easier. I have not tried it, but for $60, it is worth a try in my mind.

Thanks for posting that link - I was also curious about that device over the past few months. Just looked at the video, then the FAQ's where they say this:

Q: Can I use the Cinch with my static ropes?
A: We don’t recommend the use of the Cinch with static ropes. It does not release and
lower consistently and this use has been known to damage the release lever.

And the link to the pictorial instructions says this:

(..Dynamic Rope Only) ... Do not use the Cinch with static ropes.
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The video shows very flexible rope, looks like dynamic rope (typical for rock-climbers) which is more "stretchy" and flexible than the "static" rope that we use (and search-rescue people use).

Good review. I'll use some of the money saved not buying the Cinch to buy you lunch sometime. I do not use a static rope, but I might try one sometime.