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I  am trying not to be full of hate; however, I would estimate less than 5% of all catastrohe adjusters have the tools and training to be qualified to call themselves qualified. We need the ole red hand button on this topic. I also think part of this 5% had been picked up in the last 90 days, but I love coverage questions as I always lean some thing new.

I've been adjusting for almost 5 years and was thinking about the 2 story steep team...just as another way to stay working.  I have a friend working SF claims and they went to a seminar/show on a product called a Gris Gris.  Now he is his own 2 story steep team.   Never has to turn a claim back for not being able to get on the roof, and it adds 150 to his claims.  I think the Gris Gris costs about $75.  I would really be interested in having the demo and learning how to do it.  I also think if you say you can get on a steep roof, you'll be allowed to try!  Don't think anyone is going to hold a body back from that.  It is just a personal decision and comfort level.  I personally do not want to do any double pulls and never have.  I have been on the roof of a 2 story condo that was on pier and beams.  I carried my ladder through the house to the upstairs balcony.  It was  thrill to be up there, but hind sight being 20/20, I don't think it was too smart! 

Hey Bob, I too would like to know where you got the pitch guage.  I'm in the market for a new one.

Posted By RJortberg on 13 Aug 2009 11:47 AM
Bob- where did you get that pitch gauge? It's great that is has a level in the center. Makes it clear the pitch is measured right.

....For example, a friend of mine was dropped on a fall when the belayer was not diligent passing the rope through the gri gri. The belayer thought that a quick amount of rope going through the device would trigger the cam lock to hold the climber in place, so he was not holding onto the loose end of the rope. My friend fell to the ground, but fortunately, he was not too high up when he went down. 

1. Put this in your internet search: Tajima pitch gauge
I bought mine at a large specialty tool store in California for about $30 and love it.  When I just did a search, it looks like you can get it from Sears online and Ace online http://www.acetoolonline.com/Produc...200M  I also use the Craftsman Digital one (about $35) because the numbers photo better.

2. The guy likely had the rope running backwards in the Gri-Gri.  If you are using proper diameter rope (the device has stamping on the metal to only use rope between 10mm and 11mm) it WILL auto brake. 

The only time I have attention on holding the loose end of the rope is when I am descending down a roof, and using the "LEVER" to ease the "brake" from pinching the rope.  I will hold the loose end, to control the flow of rope through the device and make sure I know were the loose rope is so I don't step on it. 

I took these photos earlier in the day today, cuz we were focused on this topic.  Here you can see the rope I usually use (and yes it has some asphalt on it from USE).  This is 11mm line, and is the max size you can put in the Gri-Gri per the markings I am pointing to with my pen.  Folks, when I lean back on a steep roof with this stiff 11mm Static rope, the Gri-Gri will stop you in your tracks and you do NOT have to hold the other end of the line. 

You can go to a rock-climbing store and try the various rope, connect the gri-gri to it, and give it a "tug" while the Gri-Gri is attached you your belt with a caribiner.  The really flexible 10.5 mm rope will pull a foot or so through before it auto-brakes.  My 10.5 mm Static line is made by Bluewater.  the 11mm Rope rated for rescue work (Static, not Dynamic) will behave differently and stop on a dime when you tug on it.  Trusted brands include New England rope, PMI, and Sterling rope.  Climbing shops don't typically stock those rescue ropes.

Today I was on this ridge, and took this photo of the "changing of the guards" as you run the rope the other direction on the device.  I have this rope tied off at both ends of the house.  I pull out the slack for the direction I am going to, and give the line a "tug" to make sure it is threaded right through the Gri-Gri (you can visually "see" it auto-brake, and feel it stop you).  

The idea that you have to hold the loose end of the rope is totally false - if you have rope that is at the upper end of the allowable size for this device (11mm and rather stiff).  This is why you CAN use the device as a "self-belay" when you are by yourself on a roof inspection.

Posted By Tim_Johnson on 13 Aug 2009 04:11 PM
Why are the tennis shoes on the roof?

Cuz I changed into my Cougar Paws, left my other shoes on the roof.  I usually do that on the ground, but that flat roof was the place I staged.

Posted By DCave on 13 Aug 2009 12:28 PM

No I wouldnt really want to use a figure eight on the ground, only an ATC, gri gri or similar. What I'm saying is that when belaying yourself down a roof, the gri gri is not viewed in the climbing community as a good self-belaying device, only the figure eight (which i also stated would not work for adjusters as it does not have an auto stop). Bottom line, use a rope grab.

I respect your right to have an opinion, but totally disagree with you.
I realize that you no longer work for US Staffing, so i am just talking to you as a fellow human being, who has experience as an adjuster,  who I believe is now going back to working as a General Contractor (per your earlier post).  We all have an opinion, and I don't want what I say to come across as "fact".  It is my opinion.

I can tell you that I sat in a large room of people who had been doing 2-Story-Steep for a few weeks, and a trainer from the vendor I was working for came in from out of town because he had looked at 1000's of roofs (literally) on 2-Story-Steep.  Guess what - he advocated using the Gri-Gri as a self-belay device, and having the "ground person" be the ANCHOR for holding the rope (to a harness, rock-solid) but "you" adjust your movement on the roof by yourself, with the Gri-Gri. That is something we discussed on this other thread: http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx

When the trainer said that, it totally blew me away.  I really liked the idea of self-belay, and had done it with a rope-grab but never with a Gri-Gri even though I had brought one with me (but hadn't been using it up to that point).

I started using it, and did so every day for the next 2 months on that deployment.  I will never go back, it is my weapon of choice.  Today I used it when ascending, and descending.  I hooked it up right at the eve, before getting off the ladder (I don't always use the Petzl Ascender - but I do if I am going up a 32' ladder for sure - I will connect up at the ground level).

You don't have to use a Gri-Gri for self-belay, and that's fine.  To say it is not viewed as a good self belay device by the climbing comunity - well - I don't know where you are doing your research.  But I wouldn't care if a group of rock climbers had that exact quote, it wouldn't change a thing that I do.

Posted By Ray Hall on 13 Aug 2009 05:16 PM

... I would estimate less than 5% of all catastrohe adjusters have the tools and training to be qualified to call themselves qualified. We need the ole red hand button on this topic. I also think part of this 5% had been picked up in the last 90 days, but I love coverage questions as I always lean some thing new.

Ray, I know you are a very good adjuster.  And that you don't climb steep roofs, and that is fine with me - and your clients.

Lot's of people get up on roofs that they shouldn't.  Some of them fall. 
Our focus here is to give them an alternative to "braving it" without a safety net.

I view the climbing gear as the solution to a huge problem.  I embrace it as a good thing.  We can squabble about what device, and airing that stuff out is good because that's how I learn about a device I never heard of before - or someone else hasn't.

This is the roof I looked at today (yes Tim, I bought it) and I assure you this would not show show up on photos taken from the eve.  Maybe you could sort of see it from where you are standing, but the photos won't show the damage well.  These shingles were blown off near the ridge 25' up, and the roof was so deteriorated the whole roof just looked like garbage. 

These photos, and my wide angle photos showing where I had marked in chalk will make the file stand on it's own.  I don't have to convince someone that waaaay up there there were some covered damage shingles but you can't see them in the photo I send with my report.  Sometimes you can see them, and what I am saying is sometimes you have to get closer.

And sometimes you have to get up on the roof to properly measure it - when it is really cut up with multi level eves, multi-story sections (architect on drugs).

I'm still in Clare, waiting for the go ahead as a grounds person Bob. To sweeten the deal i can promise my teacher lunch that day.

Any day, from dusk till dawn i'm ready.

I thought about you today- once I pulled up to that house. I really didn't know I was going to have to rope up on it untill I pulled up. It had main slopes that were 9/12 and these wicked 12/12 extensions:

I did not see this missing tab on this "non-repairable" right side of that extension until I got up there.  This justified buying the roof, I was able to find damage on all slopes.

I tied off front and back, working alone today.

Bowline on a Bight, you tie that first, THEN run the webbing through.

As I learned from Kevin, the webbing knot is called a water knot, and mountain climbers trust their lives with it.  I have overhand knots tied on either side of the water-knot, just as a backup but have NEVER seen a water-knot slip.  and it is easy to untie, like the bowline. 

Bob:

The hand on the loose end of the rope comment about the gri gri is in reference to the ground belayer- not the climber.

When belaying, Petzl is explicit in their instructions for use and in their video that hands be on both sides of the rope as it feeds through the gri gri. The following link is Petzl's website about the gri gri:

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/bel...s-0/grigri

When the gri gri is on your harness when on the roof, I agree you do not need to have hands on the loose end of the rope. It locks out harder the more you lean against the rope. Then you unweight and release the tension, and off you go, moving the gi gri up the rope.

I do not know if my friend's belayer had the rope going in the gri gri in the wrong direction. I do know that the belayer was not holding the loose end of the rope, and my friend (a very experienced climber) blames his belayer's  not holding the loose end of the rope for the fall.  Maybe its different with a smaller diameter sport climbing rope.  I don't know what the cause, but Petzl issued a new video to address the proper way to belay with the device - using two hands.

It seems to me the last thing the ground person should do would be to let the rope run free through the gri gri without holding the loose end of the rope.  In any case, I think we are both agreeing how great the device is. I'm going to try it against a rope grab for comparison purposes.

Thanks also about the pitch gauge. That's a good tip.

Rich



 

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 12:38 AM

Bob:

The hand on the loose end of the rope comment about the gri gri is in reference to the ground belayer- not the climber.

When belaying, Petzl is explicit in their instructions for use and in their video that hands be on both sides of the rope as it feeds through the gri gri. The following link is Petzl's website about the gri gri: 
 

Gotcha, and that makes sense.  I did some training with Kevin (of K-Squared, now known as Catastrophe Career Specialties) as a ground person and can relate to that.  When you are standing on the ground, your total focus is controling that rope (with both hands).  You take in the slack as the guy is coming toward the ridge on the other side, and you let out rope when they need it.

Again just my opinion - the Gri-Gri is a lousy tool for THAT job.  It's not what it was designed to do really - I mean it sort of is - but a roof is a lot different than someone climbing one of those indoor sport wall things.  We are not gradually workinig our way up some difficult climb, with a helper on the ground gradually pulling in the slack on the rope.  We need to move around, looking for hail hits or other damage, measuring "how long is that ventilated ridge" (there was one under that blue tarp yesterday).

Kevin's weapon of choice for the ground belay person is the Air Traffic Controller.  Again, with 2 hands, it makes perfect sense.  You control that rope, and it moves in and out of the ATC much faster than it will through the Gri-Gri.  That is important when you are standing on the roof and you tell the guy on the ground that you need him to pull in about 10 feet of slack cuz it's time for you to move up closer to the ridge now. 

Here's a clickable link: http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/bel...s-0/grigri

When I watched that video, I could see how the rope they are using FLIES through the device compared to the fat-stiff rope I typically use.  It's like they have a shoe-lace going through it compared to 11mm rescue (Static) rope.  I have to really work to get the rope pulled through as I walk up a slope, to take in the slack.  When I pause and lean back, it does exactly what they say here: 

• Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 12:38 AM

I do not know if my friend's belayer had the rope going in the gri gri in the wrong direction. I do know that the belayer was not holding the loose end of the rope, and my friend (a very experienced climber) blames his belayer's  not holding the loose end of the rope for the fall.  Maybe its different with a smaller diameter sport climbing rope.  I don't know what the cause, but Petzl issued a new video to address the proper way to belay with the device - using two hands. 
 

Let's look at the photo I took of the Gri-Gri "opened up" on the previous page.  everything is nice and "rounded" inside.  No hard edges.  It is almost like a pulley-wheel inside.

One of the sides of the Gri-Gri has a smooth rounded "lip" along one edge that you can see in the photos.  That is where you place the rope against as you control the movement of the rope (if you want to).

My point...  when you are up on a roof using this device for self-belay,  the ONLY friction that the Gri-Gri is going to provide is if the ROPE is the proper diameter and CAUSES the spring loaded pivot to MOVE and thus PINCH on the rope, to CONTROL it's movement.

Just the small difference between my 11mm rope and 10.5 milimeter rope is HUGE in terms of how fast the spring loaded arm moves and causes the movement of the rope to be halted.  Any rope much smaller than my 10.5 is going to run through that thing like Sh*t throgh a goose.

If you have ever worked with an ATC you know that the free hand will pull the "slack" side of the rope at 90 degrees to the device, and the friction created against the edge of the device will halt the rope.  Pronto.  The diameter of the rope does not affect that process, but it will make a huge difference in the Gri-Gri.

People who have not worked with these devices will be sort of "spinning" reading this...  but think of it in terms of putting a 22 caliber bullet in a 25 caliber gun barrel.  It's just a little too small.  The diameter of rope is critical to how this device behaves, and you will be able to test it and get a good feel for it on the ground.  You give that rope a tug, and as the quote above says, the Gri-Gri self braking thing should happen.

From my limited experience - you can hold the "loose end" of the smaller diameter rope and slow it down a bit.  That WILL cause the spring-loaded arm thing on the Gri-Gri to move and "pinch" on the rope to slow or stop its movement.  Personally I would never want to rely on that when I am doing a self-belay on a roof.  So maybe this thread will help out the next guy who is choosing his gear.

I am not an expert at this, but have been "shown the way" by people who know what they are doing.  The people who climb rocks use "dynamic" rope, that will "give" a little if you fall a long distance, then hit the end of the rope.  We should be using what the rescue people use, "static" rope.  It tends to be more stiff.  Brands vary from one to another as well, in terms of how stiff the rope is, and how it behaves through these devices.  I can visualize non-static rope, that is at the smaller end of the acceptable diameter going through that Gri-Gri for your friend, and yes, the other guy better have his hand on the loose end to CREATE THAT TENSION that the device needs in order to function.

 

Bob:

I have an email out to my friend for more detail about how the fall happened w/ the gri gri, and I'll post what he says when I get a return. I have not used the ATC, but I do know what you mean about the friction moving the rope through the gri gri. Since climbers are ascending much more slowly than we are walking, the friction is probably not as big of a deal to the belayer, and I can see how the ITC would be the better tool for the grounds person for adjusting. Thanks also for the good pics.

Rich