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Posted By JimAustin on 14 Aug 2009 12:30 PM
Diagram 8. Rappeling
This device provides maximum
security for rappels up to 50 m.
Longer descents are not advised
(risk of device overheating).

Do you have any idea how far 50 meters is?  That is the full length of my 160 foot rope.  If you rappel that distance, using anything, it is gonna get hot.  You run that much rope quickly through a figure 8, or Air Traffic Controller, and they are also gonna get hot from the friction produced.  Here is a video example of that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj-E...MmHU 

You would compare that scenario to me walking rather slowly up and down the face of a roof.  If I fall-rappel 2 stories that is 20 feet, but in reality I would be "stopped" sooner than 20 feet, because of the "auto brake" action of the Petzl Gri-Gri.  So the 160 feet (50 meter) thing is not at all important to me.  I have never noticed my Gri-Gri even warm up.
 

Posted By JimAustin on 14 Aug 2009 12:30 PM
... I for one am gonna stay away from the GriGri when rapelling.

Adjusters actually do not rapel.  I do know one crazy guy who won't bring a big enough ladder, and is good with a rope.  He gets it over the roof somehow, "climbs" the rope (Ex-military).  And he does rappel down - but most of us use a ladder.

I realize that your instructor was probably very, very familiar with climbing, and gear.  Looks like he doesn't do roofs... 
With the diameter of rope I use, on a daily basis, I never need to hold the other end of the rope for the auto-brake to kick in.  Also keep in mind that people who go out in the wilderness and climb rocks almost always use DYNAMIC rope.  It looks the same as the rope rescue people use on the outside, both are encased with the "mantle" part of the kern-mantle rope.  That is what you see, the outer part. 

The fibers that are the true strength of the rope are protected inside, they are the "kern" of the rope.  Dynamic rope strands inside the "kern" are slightly "coiled" so that if someone falls off a rock, they are going to fall straight down until whatever point they last used to "tie-off".  when they hit the end of that - "Whacko" they get the jolt at the end of the rope.  so the little coils in the small fibers give them a bit of cushion, and they will have a few feet of extra movement rather than hitting the end of the whip. 

Here's a youtube.com video that shows climbing rope being made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDH...A and they describe the rope as "strong but stretchy".  Dynamic ropes have a different "feel" to them (more flexible) than the "static" line used in rescue work.  We use static line, because we don't want to fall off a roof and have the line "stretch" down to the ground. 

Our static rope tends to be more stiff, and it will behave different in a Gri-Gri that is very sensitive to the kind of rope run through it.  It's not gonna pull through the thing like a limp noodle, it is gonna kick that brake in when you lean back.  From his background and experience, your trainer is 100% correct.  From my experience with rope properly matched up to the Gri-Gri for ROOF inspection, I don't have any of the grief he is talking about.  Watch that video that Rich Jortberg links to at the top of this page.  The rope we should be using will not pull through the Gri-Gri that easily. 

Posted By DCave on 14 Aug 2009 10:10 AM
Not sure what the whole "I believe you are working for a GC now and not affiliated with US Staff" is all about. Why would that matter anyway?

I openly state I am not an expert.   The only reason I brought it up is some people may think you are coming from a place of active instruction in the field of Rope & Harness (as you had been, for a period of months).  I chose my words carefully to be polite.  When I read the following quote - I just had to laugh because I am using the Petzl Gri-Gri as a self-belay device frequently.  I am totally comfortable with it, and so is another member who has posted on this thread.  And the trainer to one of the largest group of 2 Story-Steep teams ever assembled (24 people, 12 teams of 2).  You are steering the comminity away from it because of some "climbing community" opinion.

Posted By DCave on 13 Aug 2009 12:28 PM
...No I wouldnt really want to use a figure eight on the ground, only an ATC, gri gri or similar. What I'm saying is that when belaying yourself down a roof, the gri gri is not viewed in the climbing community as a good self-belaying device, only the figure eight (which i also stated would not work for adjusters as it does not have an auto stop). Bottom line, use a rope grab.

I was on a 14/12 today, and would not have wanted to descend that thing using a Rope-Grab.  I have done it before, and know I'm not gonna fall off.  It's just a bit of an "all or nothing" when you push against the cam to release it.  I like them for moderately steep roofs, because they are so easy to control and fast to move rope in and out of.  Anything over 10/12 or spooky loose granules, and I will prefer the "hydraulic" feel and control that a Gri-Gri has when descending with stiff 11 mm rope.

When you say "climbing community" I would consider that to be rock climbers.  I have spoken with a number of them, they do some terrains similar to a roof, they rappel down vertical faces, they have issues that are similar but not the same as ours.

I realize you have done some instruction with the Gri-Gri, and used it personally.  I am not trying to force it on anyone. I do consider the quote mis-information for someone doing roof inspections.  Again just my opinion, as well as the vendor on-site manager for the 2 Story-Steep team I was deployed on that personally used the Gri-Gri for self belay.  To each his own.

to end on a happy note - I just read your Xactimate Sketch post to help another adjuster and DO respect your experience.  I also have been using Xm8 for a long time (16 years) and truly believe that you are gifted in that area. 

 

Posted By RJortberg on 14 Aug 2009 11:02 PM
...While my belayer worked with the tangled rope, a small loop of rope in the tangle snagged the Gri Gri's lever and released the Gri Gri's grip on the rope. Without either hand in a belay grip on the rope below the Gri Gri, my belayer dropped me to the ground in an uncontrolled fall.

I see.  That explains his fall - and as a side note we do not tend to have piles of tangled rope on a roof.  Typically I have it tied on opposite ends of the house, front and back yard, simply running up & over with 20 to 30 feet of slack so I can manuever around.

And he is also using 10mm rope which is the minimum size allowed for the Gri-Gri.
That site you linked to at the top of this page has a video that shows rope going in & out of the device MUCH faster than my 11mm rope, or even my 10.5 rope could possibly move through a Gri-Gri. 

The thing turns from a Rabit to a Turtle depending on the rope you use - keep that in mind folks.

We are not talking about the rope you might find at a hardware or building supply store. Check out this video on youtube.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WkO...I and if that link goes dead you can just go to youtube and do a search for "Sterling rope how its made".  Also this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDH...#160;which I linked to earlier. It has a generic title "how it's made - rope".

I went overboard and bought 6 lengths of it, 160' long each when I thought you had to use a 2 rope system, and considered multi-story height and how much rope I would need.  I was wrong, I believe a single rope is enough, commonly sold in 50 meter lengths (164 feet) or 60 meters (196' which is likely more than you will need). 

You can buy it by the foot in shorter lengths, but you will find situations where a 100' length is not enough.  I have not yet had to attach multiple lengths of rope.  As mentioned previously, the rope we should be using is the same as search & rescue folks use (static rope) and reputable brands include (not limited to) New England, PMI, and Sterling rope.

 

Posted By DCave on 17 Aug 2009 11:37 AM
...I completely understand why the gri gri is much more user friendly on the way down a steeper roof. Heres my question. When your going up the 14/12 are you still going to continue to use the ascender as a fall prevention device or have you changed your mind about that and decided to use the rope grab instead ...

I was trying to quote something from my last post, and managed to overwrite it.  Oh well.  For me personally, I will likely be just using the Gri-Gri for everything.  I did use it on that 14/12 the other day (once on the other side) to ascend back up, and manuever around. 

Here's an older photo of me on a 14/12 with a Gri-Gri that is mounted close to the harness with a caribiner.  To ascend, you pull yourself up on the rope then simply pull the slack through the Gri-Gri with the other hand.  It acts like a one-way valve if you have the right rope running through it.

Yesterday I connected the Gri-Gri at ground level for this simple 1 story 10/12 garage.  It wasn't that much work to pull the rope through the Gri-Gri as I climbed the ladder.  Usually I would pull rope more easily through a Petzl Ascender as I climb a ladder, but if I am going to use the Gri-Gri to manuever around once on the roof, may as well just connect one device rather than swap around.

There was an area of obvious missing tabs, but what you couldn't tell from the "eve level" was that the entire slope was compromised by force of wind lifting areas and pulling the fastener through the shingles.  I was noticing that it was like pulling on a blanket, several rows would seem to lift a bit from the deck when pulled on rather than everything staying down tight. 

This is one of the reasons why it helps to get close to see what is going on.

Posted By jesseb on 03 Sep 2009 07:26 PM
I wonder, what do you anchor off to if there is nothing on the ground?

There is always something.

I have yet to find a house that did not have at least one VERY substantial bush that I could wrap my webbing around the base several times (like you see here) and tie off to that.  

I visualize trying to yank the bush out of the ground by myself... and it is a very well established, substantial bush, I don't hesitate to tie off to them.  I will go for the big trees first, but I'd rather tie off to a bush than go up without a safety net.  At a casual glance the trimmed hedge may not look like much, but often you see 5" diameter base and very anchored to the ground. 

Similar to the rock climbers, you can anchor to multiple points and use several separate lengths of webbing so you aren't relying on just one.  I carry 6 pieces of webbing with me at all times. 10' lengths are about right for most applications and I keep some longer & some shorter ones.

You can also tie off to fence posts, and if they look questionable - rotten you may want to tie off to several of them to your rope.  You create the bowline-on-a-bight FIRST, then put the webbing through that loop and secure with a "water knot".  This photo shows overhand knots on either side of the water knot, but I have never seen one slip.

Well thank you Jim Gary for a good topic for labor day weekend. I thought this may stir up some action. I recommend some one take this from me and run with it. Find out who is purchasing the ground augers and follow these adjusters around and if they damaged the lawn, and they will be screwing this monster in the virgin soil with perfect ph contamined with zink from the galvinazation process, plus the surface scar.Encourage the Homeowner to  turn in a claim under the Homewners Policy for the loss. No deductible applies as this is additional insurance.

Then find out who the bore hogs general liability is with and file a liability claim against him/her. If the Homowners  carrier ask about the coverage its very straight foward in my opine under the HO-3 as a" risk of loss". No way was it" intended or expected from the stand point of the insured". If its a HO-2 fall back to" vandaliam or malicious mischief". If the Homeowners carrier subrogates against the General Liability carrier and both are members of AF (Arbitration Forums) recommend the respondent cross file as the cause was not correct in the applicants filing and should be dismissed with prejudice, because:

This claim should be filed under the adjusters vehicle coverage as this is a classic "loading and unloading" claim.

OK now we need all the old and new pundits not to make fun at my expense..... oops experience. Have a good weekend ever one, and you working folks take some time off and chime in also.

Aw Jim don,t be depressed. I will give you half the sredit for such a good topic. Darn it all the regular pundits seem to have started a long holiday. We need some of the adjuster school input.

Posted By BobH on 14 Aug 2009 09:21 PM

Adjusters actually do not rapel.  I do know one crazy guy who won't bring a big enough ladder, and is good with a rope.  He gets it over the roof somehow, "climbs" the rope (Ex-military).  And he does rappel down - but most of us use a ladder.

 

Sounds a bit like my experience with this stuff.    My former experience was military.    I usually bring a big enough ladder and anything over 9/12, i normally do a test area from the ladder-- i recently ran into a guy who wants me to check over his copper finials on a straight gable roof though -- roof is marginally totalled -with no perceptible damage on the guttering.  12/12 pitch

After 2 conversations with the guy, i am fuming mad -- (not overtly to the insured) ---  so i purchased a 50 meter Sterling rope , harness, Petzl ascender, figure 8 for descending (i do not intend to stop going down )   and a Tribloc as backup ascencion device, and a pair of Cougar Paws (which i have never felt a need to use before) .   I have 100 feet of parachute cord attached to a tennis ball that i throw over the ridge and then drag the rope up and over with that.     Compared to my military experience (including Air Assault school) - this stuff is NICE.  no more uncomfortable swiss seats .    And if you guys know what this stuff costs, you know all this gear was not a "light impulse purchase"   oh -- but unlike 17 years ago when i was in the Army,  i now weigh 265#

I played around on a 5/12 roof to get confidence in my bowlines and how the equipment works -- then i tackled my brother's 9 pitch 2 story roof -- and actually felt froggy enough to rappell down the gable end.   In all honesty, the cougar paws make short work out of a 9/12 roof on their own -- but at this stage of the game -- i am learning the equipment -

so today was my real test -- the  12/12  roof on my workshop. (photo below) straight gable design - no kickout - no place to stage -- just step off the ladder and haul yourself up -------  i couldn't do it.   I  would honestly rather rappell out of a Blackhawk than scale this roof-- and my insured's roof is similar (but with valley access on one slope)

I really need access to a 10/12 to work up to it a little more,  but i dont really have time - for the particular claim in question.  - i can see how that Petzl Ascender really will tear up the rope if you slip,  but from looking at my rope -- it looks like the ridge possibly does more damage.   I would probably feel safer on the ascent with a kinetic rope attached in a 2 rope system, but i would feel the need to tie a stop-knot every 10 feet or so.  

      I have no intention of pursuing a spot on a rope-harness team -- i just need the equipment and the confidence to use it for the occasional problem claim

 

Funny -- the roof doesn't look nearly as bad in this picture as it does from the top of the ladder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted By Doug on 07 Sep 2009 11:12 PM
what do you fellas do about the gutters?

Try setting your anchor out away from the home far enough where the rope does not roll up and over the gutter if possible, rather just parralells the roof pitch. Also if you are using the small Petzyl ascender, just a small metal saddle with a caribener to pinch the line, that does damage the rope. Try Ebay, there are several models that do not damage the rope, and are less expensive than the retail stores. Also google "arborists supply" for other options.

JWG

Posted By Doug on 07 Sep 2009 11:12 PM
Another note about this steep roof work --- what do you fellas do about the gutters? Do you just roll any gutter damage into the claim as a necessary part of the inspection , --- or is there something i'm missing --- in my previous post - i mentioned my "girth" -- and i can sometimes crush a gutter section just with the ladder -- i can only imagine the force put on them from a rope being used to support a 265 pounders roof top antics

I have had one of these "Ladder Max" for 2 years and love it.  Most "stand off's" are made for painters, to push against a wall.  This is made to connect with a roof, doesn't matter how steep.  You don't see it in my recent photos cuz I had to fly out with short notice, but I have worked with it & it is rock solid.  Kevin posted this on another thread, he also had one at a class I took this year.  They add some weight to the end of the ladder (if it's a long ladder) when staging, but they literally make your ladder behave like it has 4 legs rather than standing up on it's hind legs.  Very stable.

so today was my real test -- the  12/12  roof on my workshop. (photo below) straight gable design - no kickout - no place to stage -- just step off the ladder and haul yourself up -------  i couldn't do it. 

---------------------------

You need to CLAMP THE LADDER really well to the roof.  I use clamps to fascia, whatever (12" deep quick-clamps) and strap the ladder down TIGHT.  When you trust that it is solid, it's a whole different ball game stepping onto a steep pitch (assuming you are roped up - aren't gonna slip down to the ground).

I have also had one of these for a couple years, and it works well with the ladder max (both together)

You can order both the ladder max and the "walk through" at www.bigrocksupply.com or wherever you find them.

Jim Gary Said:
Try setting your anchor out away from the home far enough where the rope does not roll up and over the gutter if possible, rather just parralells the roof pitch.

---------------------------------

I agree with Jim.

If you anchor your rope to something that isn't "straight down" you won't touch the gutter. (also note the ladder is tied tight to a gutter nail, red webbing left side of photo).  That is black foam tape on the ladder, keeps from slipping, scraching gutter.

and pulling the rope over the ridge is NOT going to hurt your rope.  the outer wrap is just protection for the real strength of the rope inside (the "kern" of Kern-mantle rope).  See the links I posted a couple pages ago and watch how climbing rope is made.  You are just scuffing up the outer mantle, and getting some asphalt on it like the one in the photo I posted of a bowline tied to a porch in the last page.  Gives its some character, shows you've been around...