Ray Hall Senior Member Posts:2443  
| 11/24/2008 5:12 PM |
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This person will make it.... thats what it takes a lot of rejected files that keep getting better each time you send them in... that is the only way you can learn this business.... why does some of these schools not furnish you with a hundred closed files that you can read from home... we all the answer to that question... you will not pay $125.00 per day to read files for 10 days... I suspect is the answer. Thats why many people drop out of law school they do not like to read and many can not learn by reading. It seems the top 10% are always reading.
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HuskerCat Veteran Member Posts:762
| 11/24/2008 9:33 PM |
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Kudos on test 1, and getting some extra cleanup work! Now be aware when they toss you something new. If your claims have all been homeowner, and a commercial loss falls into the mix.......STOP! Make sure they intended to give it to you, and if so...make them (MAKE THEM) give you some coverage information & pitfalls (exclusions/limitations) that you need to be aware of. The run of the mill little loss might not make a difference in most cases, but don't throw yourself under the bus because you were so glad to get another assignment and it doesn't turn out favorably.
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okclarrydVeteran Member Posts:954
| 11/24/2008 10:26 PM |
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One statement, Jamie, that says it all.
"you just have to be willing to do whatever it takes."
You are, and will continue to be, successful.
Larry D Hardin
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MedulusModerator Veteran Member Posts:786
| 11/25/2008 11:18 AM |
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It seems you have made a better than average start, Jamie. As you said, you had some related work experience on which to draw and seem to have a good attitude about asking for help when you need it.
Adding to what Mike said --
Also, don't be afraid of the commercial claims. If you can read English, you can figure out the policies. Just make sure you have the policies to read. Assume nothing with regard to coverage.
I had a situation a few years back where I had been brought in as a commercial adjuster and was handed the claim for the city of Hampton, VA. The policy insured 68 of their 84 buildings. I called my wife and told her I didn't think I was up to handling this claim because I had never handled such a large claim before. She gave me some good advice. She told me to think of it as 68 claims with one building each. And actually the policy had a separate percentage deductible for each building so it sort of was like 68 separate claims. As I thought about it I realized that I had lots of experience in being handed 68 new claims at once, so I salllied forth to begin my 68 inspections. It turned out to be a great adventure. When I was done, the claim file filled the biggest three ring binder I could find. I got to adjust the 40 story city hall, walk on the roof of their domed sports stadium (lots of people go inside such stadiums, but how many get to walk on the roof?), calculate the roof area of the air and space museum which was a dome comprised of interlocking equilateral triangles set at various angles, estimate the damage to the quonset transportation sheds, and several other challenges. I mounted, if memory serves, about 750 photos, drew 68 roof diagrams, and wrote 68 estimates. Then I pulled all the information into a statement of loss and narrative report. It turned out to be a lot of fun as I worked on nothing else but this 15 or more hours a day for three weeks straight. The fee bill was sizable, as you might imagine, and the carrier paid it all without reduction. It was really because of handling this claim and others like it that I have the staff position I have today.
I have a bit of advice, as well. Find a couple good contacts here on CADO, people that seem to know what they are doing. Develop an email relationship with them. When you have questions that you can't answer, you might want to contact some of these people to help you out. Having some contacts like this might help you seem more knowledgeable to the vendors and carriers who employ you. Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM
"With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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| 11/25/2008 9:11 PM |
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Thanks guys,appreciate the advise and good words. And I will watch out for the ones that I don't know about the policies-I think reading and comprehending policy language may be one of the toughest things for me-like most instruction-set up manuels-they seem to be translated from some foreign language. Oh, wait-mostly guys here and you'all don't read those. :)
Anyways-Thks I got my first 6 reinspects today-so lots of files to read.
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| 12/05/2008 5:53 PM |
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For Ike, the first firm I worked for for Ike deployed 25 people to a fairly remote area and sent 3 (that I know about, there were probably others) home in the first 5 days. They yanked all their assignments, including the ones they had seen but not yet submitted. About half of the remaining were allowed to finish their initial batch of 20 or so files and sent home. The vendor was using any little thing to send people home - one complaint call, closing less than 3 or more than 5 in a single day, not dropping everything and relocating to another part of the country on request. I got 70 files and was, relative to my peers, thrilled with the outcome.
I knew several of the people who were sent home. They all took it very personally, but I think that there are a lot of things that go on between your firm's and the carrier's respective managements that have little/nothing to do with your performance but that can directly impact how many files you receive. Not really sure if I want to stay IA because of this problem.
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 12/05/2008 6:23 PM |
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Why don,t you give the vendors name and the president can give his reply in this forum. However, if these were new people they should have been sent home as they were not qualified to do the work they were sent out to do. New people should never be given more than 10 files, but 10 x25 is 250 phone calls someone has to answer this is an old trick used by the carriers, vendors, sub vendors etc. stop the phone calls. Give the policyholder a name and a phone number.
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| 12/05/2008 8:54 PM |
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Ray, might I ask why the new people should have been sent home? I have to disagree with you on this one. By the way Ray has helped me out a time or two during this storm so I want to say thank you to him and to the others that have helped me when I needed some guidance. I believe if your hired to do a job and the employer knows that you are new and have never worked claims then they should be willing to give you the help necessary to be successful within reason that is.
I have had a great experience for my first storm, I have learned more then I could have ever imagined about what is required in this career and I love it. I have closed well over 100 files not that they have all been easy. I thought I knew what I was doing when I started and I ran out and inspected my back side off. I took good notes and took about 100 pictures of every house. But when it came time to actually turn my notes and photos into an estimate I realized that sometimes the inspecting is the easy part of this job. I want to thank the folks at CJW, Bob, John, Dianne and several others that have patiently told me what I was doing wrong and how to correct my errors. I have taken a lot in and still have a lot to learn but the opportunity that they gave me will not soon be forgotten, I believe this experience has been invaluable to my future career in this industry. I am still on the ground here in Houston and working with no plans of going home anytime soon. Ray, recommended a book that he thought I should read and unfortunately I cant remember the name of the book right now I found it extremely helpful. Ray if your read this maybe you can post it for the other new folks to read. Once again thanks to all for your help and I hope that someday when I have the experience that many of you do I can pay it forward.
Happy Holidays to you all,
Jason Wells |
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 12/05/2008 11:26 PM |
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Jason I never had any doubts about you. You are one of the people who will not be defeated or overwhelmed by a task. Many people will. My post was really about vendors who send people out as "fodder" with a name and phone number to stall for time. many of these people will bring in the diagrams and photos. The vendor knows they will fail and will not let them learn as you did. I have known vendors who are in business today that ran job fairs in 04. Assigned 750 files to poor newbies on their own dime and pulled 90 % in 10 days and assigned to the Calvery who closed the 675 losses with the notes and photos. This is my last cat. I will leave it to the new people who can work circles around me and only need to be told something one time. No I will not post the vendor, but my phone works.
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MedulusModerator Veteran Member Posts:786
| 12/06/2008 12:23 PM |
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I've been thinking about this thread. It took more than a little bit of courage for Adjuster TN to tell us about his first CAT. I would not have done that after my first one. But, then, my first CAT as an independent was back in 1998. I believe the true story can probably be told now without any repercussions. Therefore, I've decided to tell my story as well. Obviously I am much more cowardly than Adjuster TN, because I waited nearly eleven years to tell the story. I would also love to hear the stories of people like Ray Hall, Tom Toll, and Dave Hood about their first experiences if they are comfortable doing so.
Here's my story.
I had a couple things going for me when I went independent. I had seven years experience as an adjuster for two major carriers. The experience was primarily as an auto adjuster. I had worked both the property damage and the liability side of the fence. I had been through the State Farm staff CAT training three times at State Farm's expense. I had worked CATs on staff for both State Farm and Nationwide. I, therefore, knew what State Farm required in a CAT file. I had been through claim school with both carriers. As far as non-claim education, I already had a Masters degree and was generally highly educated. I have always been a very quick learner. On the down side, I knew next to nothing about construction and had always written my estimates by hand. I did not know how to use Xactimate or any other computerized estimating system. I had taken four of the State Farm CAT certification tests. I failed the State Farm earthquake test. It was the only test I have ever failed in my life. I failed it because much of it was about concrete construction, a subject of which I knew nothing.
I had given up "the day job" with Nationwide a month earlier to become an independent CAT adjuster. I had gone to great lengths to set myself up as an independent, but had not yet had any nibbles. Then I failed the earthquake test, which hit me very hard since it was the first time I had ever failed a test. I drank a bit too much that night. I also stayed up until 5AM playing with my computer and wondering if I had made a huge mistake by going independent. I had gotten 2 hours sleep when the phone rang. It was the director of Crawford CAT operations asking me if I could be in Florida tomorrow. I snapped to attention, pretended I did not have a hangover and told him, "Yes!!!!!".
I spent the day rounding up financing to buy a laptop (I only had a desktop) and a ladder. When evening came I took a cab to the train station to get to Cleveland, then took a flight to Fort Lauderdale, rented a car, checked in with a friend who was putting me up in Florida, and got a couple more hours sleep. The next morning I reported to the State Farm CAT office with massive sleep deprivation and was handed 109 files. I was told I had 24 hours to call everyone and set up appointments. Over the course of the next couple days, I called all the insureds, bought a laptop, printer and ladder that would fit in the trunk of the rental car, and also took a three hour tutorial in how to use Xactimate. I was in my forties at the time, but it feels like I was a much younger man then than I am now. I was able to handle physical stress much better and run on much less sleep. The headache went away after about three days.
I initially had an expectation that I would close ten files a day. I did not yet understand the difference between handling hail claims and tornado claims (which is what this CAT was about). I could never get close to the ten a day. Three to six seemed to be typical. Over the course of the next five weeks I closed the 109 claims. The file requirements were more onerous for State Farm than for most carriers in 1998, but somehow I got through the claims by working 15 to 17 hours a day. I was boning up on construction techniques as much as I could along the way. Apparently, I handled my claims sufficiently well that I was called out on a second CAT four days after I got home.
The market for independents was very different in 1998 than it is now. The difference between what I personally know today and what I knew then is vast. If I were entering the field today with the level of knowledge I had then, I might not make the grade. Now I know so much more about handling claims and about construction that I am the one who reviews the independents who work for our company. I'm not sure I would have allowed my 1998 work through today. When I assign a claim to an independent I expect far more when the report comes in. I also never forget that I too had to start somewhere. So I usually counsel an adjuster who hands in work that does not meet my expectations to correct the work and teach them the right way to do the work in order to meet those expectations. It's only the hopelessly substandard work that I pull and give to someone else. If, for instance, someone adds Overhead and Profit to the Business Income Loss or doesn't write their own estimate after being instructed to do so repeatedly, the file will be yanked.
I developed some practices that led to considerable success for several years as an independent. First, I never saw working a CAT as comparable to normal mundane life. I suspended all normal life to work a CAT. I never went in with the expectation of working less than 15 hours a day seven days a week. There were several months in 2001 when I worked until three in the morning and started again at 8 in the morning. I also hired someone to work with me that year. He sat across the table from me and also worked until 3 am and started again at 8 am.
A second practice that helped considerably is that I developed a network of people with whom I could consult. I had people I could call with questions of coverage, people I could call with construction questions, and people I could call about other matters like licensing and software. I did that networking through CADO. I met most of my most important contacts in the industry in this forum.
I also never forgot that being successful required considerable marketing of myself as well as how well I could close a claim.
And, finally, I never stopped learning and growing. I took advantage of continuing ed whenever I thought it would help me be a better adjuster. In fact, I am going to end this post right here because I need to study for the last test in my AIC course tomorrow (CPCU 551). I would hate to add a second failure to my repertoire. Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM
"With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 12/06/2008 2:09 PM |
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Good read Steve. I was an auto casualty adjuster for Firemans Fund in Houston. FF was my second employer and you could make about $200.00 a month more salary back in the 50's by making a change after about 1.5 years. I had about 3 years and FF thought I had what it took to be a property adjuster. this was in the days when people skills were thought to be paramount requirement for a "first party property adjuster". The training was one week in the Dallas regional office and then one week back in Houston working property claims that I thought I could work. My bosses kinda like me jump off in the deep water then call them. This lasted 3 months.
In the Dallas office we had several thousand hail losses in Arkansas that GAB was working (the recognized best property independant adjusters at the time) An other trainee and myself reviewed all these files for approval along with a Sr General Adjuster 2 desk away. Tne best training in the world. The files did not have to be changed corrected AND we learned by reading. We also had two hours reading the Texas Standard Fire Insurance Policy, the IM Personal Property Floater and all of the other commercial fire forms and inland marine forms that we would encounter from cotten gin forms to oil & gas properties.
While I was in Dallas a Tornado hit Oak Cliff and jumped over to West Dallas and my first field experience was holding the end of a 100 tape for an old General adjuster on low value total losses and have the customers come into our office the next afternoon and pick up their checks for the policy limits and the unearned premium calculated in the loss draft with the words "policy canceled" in the body.
After 3 month training in property a hurricane hit Cameron , Louisiana (Audry 1957 over 500 drowned). I was sent over to work a hunting lodge in the swamp that was owned by a very wealthy Texan. The PPF covered Personal Property for "risk of loss" any were in the world. The surge left two side walls and took all the antique furnishings. I was razzed for years by the Inland Marine Underwriting Depatment for settling this claim with one of the wealthiest men in Texas with Sears & Roebuck Catalog.
One more . As a staff adjuster I had to assign losses and review, write checks to all the IA's in the Houston Area. We had a large book of business in Beaumont, Victoria, Austin, College Station and I suppervised the IA's who were appointed by the Dallas office. The IA was not appointed but kinda jammed down FF throat. (Rathercommon still today). A small hurricane hit Beaumont and my bosses said I only want you to handle the --------------- family estate who had about 250 rent houses on a schedule, all low value 10,20.30 K range, some with 45# felt roof membrane. All had a $50. windstorm Ded.
The contact(son) and I inspected ever house. I took photos and massive notes and told the insured I would return when I got all the fig's worked up and come back and present the position of Firemans Fund on the inspected loss assessment to him.
I came back in due course with all 250 files written up and filled in proof of losses just awating a signiture and I could close out my "own little catastrophe.
Mr. ------ did not say a word for about 20 min. and I began to use words like "this is just like so and so and the ACV does not exceed the $50.00 Ded; therefore FF will not pay any amount on this house" Seems like more than an hour and when I had finished and waited to a response I heard these words for the first time in my life.......Unacceptable"...... All of the air was sucked out of my 24 year old lungs..... I stammed some response and he repeated "its an unacceptable offer and your company will have to be more rational in further dealing with us"
I left, got to the near pay phone to call my boss, almost in tears and told him what a complete failure I was on this important loss and to take it away from me and give it to one of the old General Adjusters in the area with more experience than I had. Ole Rube Ard was his kool self and said no he wanted me to keep the files. I ask him "how am I going to close these losses". His replay was well you will figure out a way, dont worry about it, just back to Houston and do your usual good job.
About 2 years later in a large meeting about the new "Homeowers Policy" I brought this subject up at dinner. The Veep of Claims and Rube smiled and said.
"We trained you, you were trained well and we trusted you and knew you could do better job than we could thats why we gave it to you". I can't remember how I did it, but I closed all 250 losses with this insured.
Don,t give up new people you will have stories to tell like this in 50 years from now. |
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| 12/06/2008 6:58 PM |
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Ray and Steve your storys brought a smile to my face today. I should point out that my days have been like yours in your early days 15-17 hours 7 days a week. I dont mind however the school that I went to certainly did not prepare me for these hours, and guess what not everyone is making 50-100K a month. I wish the instructors of these classes would tell the new people that are coming into this industry as to what reality really is. The money can be great but certainly not easy. You work for every penny that your recieve. But as with all things as you gain knowledge things become easier. Ray, I am sorry to hear that you will be done after this storm are you going to work inside or just hang it up for good? Dont forget I still owe you dinner.
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 12/06/2008 7:56 PM |
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I will get out of Homeowner claims (regular) about $50.00 per hour my part, when I can get work. Or just do liability work, pre trial, etc. and give the puters to all you roof thumpers. |
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| 12/16/2008 7:20 PM |
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Outstanding string! This gives me a sence of I am not alone in my new career. Although, I am trying to get day claims while waiting for the "Next Call". Thank you AG for having the guts to share your experience, and thanks to all the veterans for sharing their insights. In my down time, I am securing the Licenses from other states that I am told to have from my Independent Firm, and what an ordeal that has been, but it is moving slowly. Thanks again for the great sting and valuable input from others.
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HuskerCatVeteran Member Posts:762
| 12/16/2008 8:10 PM |
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Posted By Chip Carter on 16 Dec 2008 07:20 PM
Outstanding string! This gives me a sence of I am not alone in my new career. Although, I am trying to get day claims while waiting for the "Next Call". Thank you AG for having the guts to share your experience, and thanks to all the veterans for sharing their insights. In my down time, I am securing the Licenses from other states that I am told to have from my Independent Firm, and what an ordeal that has been, but it is moving slowly. Thanks again for the great sting and valuable input from others.
Glad to hear your successes Chip, and wish you future work. As for the "sting"...or "sence", you've been "stung" (or, is it stinged?).  Sometimes we just don't have anything better to do than coach in front of an audience.
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| 03/16/2009 9:11 AM |
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I went back and re-read your original post and while it’s obvious you were very frustrated with the experience of your first Cat assignment I didn’t read anything that, in my opinion, should keep you from ever working in this industry again. If anything the detailing of your frustrations likely caused some embarrassment to not only the IA firm who hired you but State Farm as well because they share some of the blame.
A bad thing has happened to our industry over the past few years and many of us share in the blame….the carriers, the states regulating adjuster licensing, the adjusting firms, and new adjusters just to name a few. We all know our society’s desire for instant gratification over the last few years created much of the economic trouble we find ourselves in today and to a degree the same thing has occurred in cat adjusting. When I first became an independent catastrophe adjuster I already had a couple of years under my belt with a major carrier. Even with some adjusting experience I spent the first seven weeks of Cat adjusting carrying a ladder and taking photos for an experienced adjuster. After that I spent another three weeks doing the same thing for three other experienced adjusters. Then it took a couple more years before I wasn’t considered the “new guy” that needed to be watched closely. Numerous folks responded to your original post and rightly stated that in order to succeed in this business you need to take the time to get experienced and you need some mentoring. I’m guessing that those replies probably frustrated you even more since there is no real system in place to train cat adjusters and to allow for the couple of years that is needed to grow into the job. I got lucky and knew the right people. I also came into the business at a time when it took a little longer to get things done because when I started computerized estimating was the latest greatest thing and many adjusters were still hand writing estimates. Many wanting to get into cat adjusting today are licensed too fast, trained to operate an estimating system too fast, taught how to read a policy too fast (if at all), and sent out to adjust claims too fast. The ones that don’t sink or go down in a flaming ball of fire might get to stick around long enough to learn the ropes and become a competent cat adjuster.
First and foremost get yourself healthy again. This business can take a drastic toll on your health if you’re not careful. Then decide if you really want to do this or not. If the answer is still yes then please understand you may not make enough money to live off of for the first couple of years until you’ve gained the experience and relationships needed to be a successful cat adjuster. I’ve rambled on long enough and need to jump off of this soap box but feel that one more point needs to be made. All of the folks I’ve met that are successful in this business work at it full time. Contrary to popular belief cat adjusting is not a part time job. Even when you’re not deployed to a storm you need to be working at furthering your career by further educating yourself and going to claims related events such as conferences and workshops where you’ll meet others that may help you advance your ambitions.
Take care of yourself and I wish you the best of luck in whatever you choose to do.
Mark C. Moore
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MedulusModerator Veteran Member Posts:786
| 03/16/2009 10:31 AM |
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Very sorry to hear about your health problems, A.G. I applaud your return to educating yourself while you work out the physical problems. Being blacklisted by State Farm really is not the end of the world. Trust me on this one. They may have lost more than you did on the deal.
Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM
"With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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| 03/16/2009 1:16 PM |
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I think you misunderstood my statement about cat adjusting being full time. I said the folks I know that are successful in this business "work at it full time" meaning even when there are no claims they still have their head in the game and they're working at improving their craft. You're correct about the periods of time off between storms which is one of things most of us find attractive about the job. Anyway it sounds to me like you're doing everything right. Also I couldn't agree with Steve Ebner more. I fired myself from State Farm in 1995 and it didn't hurt one bit.
Mark
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| 03/16/2009 5:33 PM |
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And, one more cognizant point, if you please. All should be mindful that many eyes view this forum, some of them with not so good intent. Some of them don't like an independent opinion. Some of them don't like the truth.
Please, be mindful of this in your posts and take careful steps to protect or shield youself from them. Ol' Ghost does care about you guys out there, even if you're just fresh meat on the platter.
Ol'Ghost
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Tom TollModerator & Life Member Senior Member Posts:1865 
| 03/16/2009 6:01 PM |
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Posted By Ol' Ghost on 16 Mar 2009 05:33 PM
And, one more cognizant point, if you please. All should be mindful that many eyes view this forum, some of them with not so good intent. Some of them don't like an independent opinion. Some of them don't like the truth.
Please, be mindful of this in your posts and take careful steps to protect or shield youself from them. Ol' Ghost does care about you guys out there, even if you're just fresh meat on the platter.
Ol'Ghost
Ol Ghost is right on with his posting. Insurance companies and vendors look at this site all the time. Best to keep some things to yourself or send PM's to those you wish to know.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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