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Mr. Valjean,

Construction practices evolve and change over the years and the insurance policy is NOT required to replace the decking with the EXACT same thing that was used in the original construction. LQK does not necessarily mean that wording. The sheating under the shingles can be replaced with 3/4" CDX plywood as that is the normal construction practices TODAY to match up with 3/4" 1x8. IF the 1x8's were milled 50-70 years ago, they might be a full 1" thick. The policy is NOT required to have 1" thick boards milled to replace the damaged ones. A thin filler can be used on the rafters and the 3/4" plywood used.

An insurance policy is NOT required to replace an old item with another OLD item. If that was the case, you would be paying for an RCV policy for nothing. There are NO 60 year old decking pieces laying around so you get what is available IN THE MARKETPLACE TODAY.

That's life.

I am in agreement with Kevin.  You haven't told us what kind of roof you had...was it woodshake or cedar shingles over spaced board decking?.. or was it asphalt/comp shingles over the top of shakes?...how many layers?

If it's any of the above--and the roof decking is 60+ years old--you surely need new decking with a nailable surface.  Now, if it were me, I wouldn't want 1x8's regardless of the quality.  Too many courses of shingles/nails hitting the cracks & so on.  Most building codes will require 5/8" & up for decking, again depending on where you live.  Ice/water shield, again, depending on where you live.  But I'd go with the CDX plywood, not the waferboard.

If your neighborhood covenant requires that you go back with woodshake/cedar shingles, then the spaced board decking might be an option but there are new procedures now days for the breathing necessary on shake roofs.

You haven't told us what kind of roof you are going back with, nor why the decking has to be replaced.  I suspect the adjuster put in decking just for the purpose of providing a nailable surface, or maybe the old boards were rotted.  And if that's the case, you got a gift.

   

 

We have a claim where the roof was comp shingles and we discovered that beneath that was slate. We paid for the comp shingle and slate replacement, but depreciated the slate 90%. There was extensive interior water damage as a result of the roof damage. The insured is not happy because the city is requiring him to replace the slate roof, because the home is in an historical district. The depreciation of the slate (underlayment) represents $1000's of dollars. How would you resolve this issue with the insured.

Also, what is the method of applying comp shingles over slate, without doing alot of damage to the slate.

I think I missed something. Your paying to replace two different layers of roofing?

Our management view is that when roof shingles are damaged by a covered cause of loss, it is sometimes necessary to remove several layers of old roof shingles. If the removal of the old shingles is required to properly install the new roof, the cost of removing the old shingles will be considered part of the covered loss, this goes for underlayment as well.

How do you install a comp roof over slate?

As an owner, I have renovated many houses in historic districts including the re-roofing, and did one house that had slate roof as a contractor about 24 years ago.  First of all, there there is no way to install comp shingles over slate without tearing up the slate.  That is probably why there was water damage in the house.  The local and federal regulations on the exterior of houses in the historic districts generally allow for composition roofs to be put on these days.  However, if the house is a "declared historic house", the rules change and probably would have to have a new roof that "looks like" the original slate.  There are some imitation slates available.  I have always gotten approval to put laminate shingles on in the historic districts because that is the prevailing type of roof in the Dallas area.

As an adjuster, I would look at the circumstances before depreciating the slate.  Slate can last forever.  I have seen roofs over 100 years old with the original slate.  What was the reason it was re-roofed with composition and was it covered under insurance when it was done?  Is there a possibility of subrogation against the roofer who installed the composition?   If the comp was put on due to storm damage, the layover should never have been approved.  The one slate roof I took off was due to hurricane damage in Galveston where debris broke a lot of the slate and lifted a lot of them pulling nails out.  We removed all of the slate then installed the composition roof.  At that time there was no replacement for the slate so the insurance just paid for a normal re-roof.  We were able to sell the slate to other contractors who used it to repair other roofs that did not require a re-roof.

Not knowing how old the composition roof was on your claim, I would guess that someone owes the homeowner a new slate or similar roof to meet the historic requirement.  This is not an upgrade since the slate is still on the house. If statute of limitations is not up, the roofer might even get sued for destroying the slate. Also, how did anyone get approval to overlay with comp in the historic district?  Check for permits or CA.  A CA (certificate of acceptability ) must be issued by the landmark commision before any exterior work can be done in a historic district.  These rules have been around for many years.  If the comp was put on before the area was declared historic then it is grandfathered in at its current condition and should be able to go with composition.

If you have more specific details, post them here along with what city the property is in, and I will answer any questions about the historic requirements that I can.

This is a response to the original topic, decking material.  Most older homes (pre-1940) have tongue and groove 1" pine decking and would have to be replaced with such.  Up at least to 1930 in the Southwest, the roof structures were usaually framed with 2x4's and the houses were balloon framed.  The decking, which sometimes was shiplap instead of t&g, held the structure together.  Even newer houses with cedar used 1x material to hold the rafters in place.  These can not be torn off without risking a roof collapse or shifting of the roof and walls.  With 1x, you lay the decking over and nail to the 1x4's.

The procedure is to tear off any rotted decking and splice in decking of matching thickness.  Sometimes you have to price in 1" material purchased from salvage yards.  There are a number of yards in dallas where I buy used shiplap, t&g pine, and old hardwood flooring.  If the decking is so bad that it all has to come off, or the 1x4 strips are bad, they have to be removed as the 4x8 decking is installed to keep the rafters and walls plumb and square.  This requires a higher cost for tear off and replacement labor on the claim report.

While I am at it, I will add one more item that most adjusters would not spot if they have never worked on a balloon framed house.  If the damage is due to fire or tornado and rafters are also damaged, the cost can go up dramatically.  On a traditonal framed house (1930's and up), the rafters are notched and sit on the top plate of the wall.  On a baloon framed house, there is no top plate.  The ceiling joists, which are usually 2x4's with shiplap run crosswise, are nailed to the outside end of the ceiling joist which is resting on the shiplap wall and suspended above the attic floor., putting weight on the cantilevered ceiling joists which extend out about 30" creating the soffit.

I had a fire in one and the structural engineer's report said to brace up the walls from the outside and inside before removing the rafters that burned because a spring effect would cause the walls to move and become wavey with no way to straighten them back up.

Depending on the extent of the damage, you may need to allow for an architects drawing to rebuild a roof structure to todays code since 2x4's are not acceptable for ceiling joists or rafters.  It also requires modification of the existing wall to build in a top plate for the replacement roof structure.

Rick,
Thanks for the excellent posts...........

Joe L

Balloon framing

Balloon framing is a method of wood construction used primarily in Scandinavia, Canada and the United States. In the U.S., this method was introduced by Augustine Taylor (1796-1891) in Chicago. It utilizes long continuous framing members (studs) that run from sill to eave line with intermediate floor structures nailed to them. Once popular when long lumber was plentiful, balloon framing has been largely replaced by platform framing.

The curious name of this framing technique was originally a derisive one. As Taylor was constructing his first such building, St. Mary's Church, in 1833, skilled carpenters looked on at the comparatively thin framing members, all held together with nails, and declared this method of construction to be no more substantial than a balloon. It would surely blow over in the next wind! Though the criticism proved baseless, the name stuck.

Although lumber was plentiful in 19th century America, skilled labor was not. The advent of cheap machine-made nails, along with water-powered sawmills, in the early 19th century made balloon framing highly attractive, because it did not require highly-skilled carpenters, as did the dovetail joints, mortises and tenons required by post-and-beam construction. For the first time, any farmer could build his own buildings without a time-consuming learning curve.

It has been said that balloon framing populated the western United States and the western provinces of Canada. Without it, western boomtowns certainly could not have blossomed overnight. It is also a fair certainty that, by radically reducing construction costs, balloon framing improved the shelter options of poorer North Americans.

The main difference between platform and balloon framing is at the floor lines. The balloon wall studs extend from the sill of the first story all the way to the top plate or end rafter of the second story. The platform-framed wall, on the other hand, is independent for each floor.

Balloon framing has several disadvantages as a construction method:

• The first is the creation of a path for fire to readily travel from floor to floor. This is mitigated with the use of firestops at each floor level.

• Second is the lack of a working platform for work on upper floors. Whereas workers can readily reach the top of the walls being erected with platform framing, balloon construction requires scaffolding to reach the tops of the walls (which are often two or three stories above the working platform).

• The requirement for long framing members is a third disadvantage.

• A fourth disadvantage, in certain larger buildings, is a noticeable down-slope of floors towards central walls, caused by the differential shrinkage of the wood framing members at the perimeter versus central walls. Larger balloon-framed buildings will have central bearing walls which are actually platform framed and thus will have horizontal sill and top plates at each floor level, plus the intervening floor joists, at these central walls. Wood will shrink much more across its grain than along the grain. Therefore, the cumulative shrinkage in the center of such a building is considerably more than the shrinkage at the perimeter where there are much fewer horizontal members. Of course, this problem, unlike the first three, takes time to develop and become noticeable.

Balloon framing has been outlawed by building codes in many areas because of the fire danger that it poses.

Balloon framing is growing in popularity again in light gauge steel stud construction. For light gauge steel, long framing members are not as much of an issue. Balloon framing provides a more direct load path down to the foundation. Some electricians like working in balloon frame buildings, because the lack of fire blocking makes it much easier to add circuits.

 

Platform framing

Platform framing is a light-frame construction system and the most common method of constructing the frame for houses and small apartment buildings as well as some small commercial buildings in Canada and the United States.

The framed structure sits atop a concrete (most common) or treated wood foundation. A Sill-Plate is anchored, usually with 'J' bolts to the foundation wall. Generally these plates must be pressure treated to keep from rotting. The bottom of the sill-plate is raised a minimum 6 inches above the finished grade by the foundation. This again is to prevent the sill-plate from rotting as well as providing a termite barrier.

The floors, walls and roof of a framed structure are created by assembling (using nails) consistently sized framing elements of dimensional lumber (2×4, 2×6, etc.) at regular spacings (12″, 16″, and 24″ on center), forming stud-bays (wall) or joist-bays (floor). The floors, walls and roof are typically made torsionally stable with the installation of a plywood or composite wood “skin” referred to as sheathing. Sheathing has very specific nailing requirements (such as size and spacing); these measures allow a known amount of shear force to be resisted by the element. Spacing the framing members properly allows them to align with the edges of standard sheathing. In the past, tongue and groove planks installed diagonally were used as sheathing. Occasionally, wooden or galvanized steel braces are used instead of sheathing. Two examples of such steel frames are Simpson Steel Strong-Walls, and Hardy Frames.

The floor, or the platform of the name, is made up of joists (usually 2x6, 2×8, 2×10 or 2×12, depending on the span) that sit on supporting walls, beams or girders. The floor joists are spaced at (12″, 16″, and 24″ on center) and covered with a plywood subfloor. In the past, 1x planks set at 45-degrees to the joists were used for the subfloor.

Where the design calls for a framed floor, the resulting platform is where the framer will construct and stand that floor’s walls (interior and exterior load bearing walls and space-dividing, non-load bearing “partitions&rdquo. Additional framed floors and their walls may then be erected to a general maximum of four in wood framed construction. There will be no framed floor in the case of a single-level structure with a concrete floor known as a “slab on grade”.

Stairs between floors are framed by installing stepped “stringers” and then placing the horizontal “treads” and vertical “risers”.

A framed roof is an assembly of rafters and wall-ties supported by the top story’s walls. Prefabricated and site-built trussed rafters are also used along with the more common stick framing method. “Trusses” are engineered to redistribute tension away from wall-tie members and the ceiling members. The roof members are covered with sheathing or strapping to form the roof deck for the finish roofing material.

Floor joists can be engineered lumber(trussed, i-beam, etc.), conserving resources with increased rigidity and value. They allow access for runs of plumbing, HVAC, etc. and some forms are pre-manufactured.

Tom,

That is the best documentation of the two types of structures that I have seen.  Where did you find it?  Although most of the houses I renovated did not have top plates like the drawing, that is a very good representation of balloon framing.  I am going to save that info in case I ever need it for a dispute.  I have replaced the foundation on several of these types of houses and had one buyer dissatisfied with how level the house was upon completion even though we had an engineer's report confirming the job.  We had to stop jacking but got the floor within tolerance.  If we had kept jacking we would have busted some roof rafters which I attributed to the house being built un-level.  I had never thought about shrinkage having anything to do with it.

The first house like this we restored leaned to the southeast.  When dropping a plumb line from the 10' ceiling of the first floor it was out of plumb everywhere by about  4".  We finally concluded that when the house was framed a storm probably blew in from from the northwest before the shiplap had been nailed on the walls causing it to lean.  They had no way to straighten the frame back up so they completed the house with it leaning.  The buyers considered it as part of the character of the house.

 

Tom,
Thanks...a picture is worth a thousand words....I appreciate the claification...I also thought that there was no upper sill plate in balloon framing...........

Thanks,
Joe

Advice please. 2400 S.F. balloon framed home, circa 1905. The entire rim joist around the perimeter has to be replaced and 75% of the floor joists, all due to termite damage. One would say, "WAIT! - termite damage is not covered". It is when you are handling this as a warranty claim from one of the major pest control companies. We had one contractor come out and give a cursory bid of $40,000 - $60,000, but when he reinspected and discovered it was balloon framing he withdrew his bid and said he would not attempt repairs at any price. What are your thoughts on these repairs with the exception of,

#1. Throw your estimating software out the window.

Tim,

I sent an email to you with a lot of questions.  I can discuss it on the phone and tell you what is involved after learning the details about the house.  This type of job would be very expensive, but being baloon framed actually should simplify the job, not make it more difficult.  The reason is that the walls should not be sitting on the floor and not  placing any load on the floor joists if it is a true balloon framed house.  The walls should be framed all the way to the beam, although sometimes the floor joists are nailed into the side of the studs, but not usually on the 1st floor.

I suspect that what you think is a rim joist is probably a wood beam that is approximately a 6x8 cedar beam.  However, if it is eaten up by termites, it is probably fir or pine.  There is a special technique required to replace that beam that is difficult on a 1 story house, and very difficult on a 2 story if the stud wall is nailed directly to that beam, as it should be if it is a true balloon structure.  It is also a somewhat dangerous job that can result in a collapse.  If have done this on a heavy 2 story structure but came up with a system to do the job and had a structural engineer sign off on it before I attempted it.  It required building a temporary structure in side and jacking against the concrete foundation after taking out the flooring. It requires lifting the wall completely off of the wood beam after cutting the nails in the studs from the beam.  After getting the wall up, I cut off the studs enough to slide in a steel H-beam with 2x's nailed to both sides of the H-beam, then set the wall back down. The most dangerous part is the wall tries to swing out away from the house because of the weight from the 2nd story and tall roof.  I had to rig spring steel on the outside of the wall with steel cable passed through the wall and bolted through the spring steel, then tied the cable around the brick piers under the center of the house, and pull it tight with a come-along.  Then we used porta-jacks on the outside wedged against trees and jacked against the wall to help prevent moving while we jacked it up on the inside.

 

Anyway, this is just an example of one type of repair to a baloon framed building.  I can give you other examples. But call me, and we can discuss the exact house you are dealing with. 

 

This is a very informational series of posts. Tim- whatever happened with this claim?