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Randyc

It appears that Mr. Taylor's elderly lady neighbor neglectfully failed to shovel off her roof when the noise of the first cracking rafter was sounded.  HMMM I will have to chew on that scenario for a little while prior to denying insurance coverage for her neglect.

William S Cook

PA

Randyc

I read on,  Section 1 A 2 b that the damage to the neighbors rafter damage you describe is excluded as collapse.  Collapse is defined in the policy.

William S Cook

PA

The Ho-3 last revision will cover collapse of  a roof from acumilation of snow  to the building and contents. This is is unexpected and unfore seen; UNLESS  the deferred maintainace items are present (but do not have to be known). All the C coverage language only applies to C, not A coverage.

This was a very bad TX case many years ago on "foundation claims" was the bases of the verdict when the jury was given the C language insterad of the A language.

I have had some decks attached to the house(house on a steephill) when the 2x12 band  caused the water to funnel down into the interior and rot out the entire load bearing wall for 20 feet. (the contractor contended the insured was un aware the house had been leaking for 20 years until they got into the wall cavity when the sink screwed up and the found all the rot) This was in Atlanta in 1994.

Ray

I agree with you that the latest HO-3 insurance will pay for collapse.  The policy even goes so far as to define what is the condition of collapse so that cracking of rafters is not included in the definition of collapse.   Recall that collpase is an excluded peril under the policy terms and is brought back within coverage by specified perils meeeting specified condtions.  I can make a case that the roof was ok with the accumulated snow until a falling object (the last snowflake to land) prior to and suddenly and accidentally caused a rafter to crack.

I also see a posssible exclusion under section 1 A c 2 b

I am unwilling to invest my time on a claim that has so many adversities to bring it to a favorable conclusion.  So far Team CADO has not shown by policy reference where the damage of cracked rafters are covered.  Coverage will apply if the structure does collapse and coverage will apply for personal property if the weight of ice and snow is the proximate cause of damage within the structure, but structure damage will not be covered unless the policy definitions of collapse are met. 

William S Cook

PA

 You know we have had some similar discussions in the past;

For Example this one on Winter Storms posted in December of 1999,  http://www.catadjuster.org/discus/m...3/210.html

And this question was posted to a discussion in 2001.

"The question is: Is there coverage for removal of the ice and snow off of the roof. Assume that there is no damage to the roof. The intial response in no coverage as there is no direct physical damage to the roof. "

http://www.catadjuster.org/discus/m.../3028.html

And there are others.

It was great to read these old post. All of this is good advise new people. This is off topic, but many of us who were staff adjusters for years have spent most of our working time  on working accidental water losses. This is probably the most costly losses under the HO-3 that are not weather related. Most of the Fire-Water Remediation Contrtactors make 90% of their income on water sucking and remediation protocals. Carriers keep records on these type losses and do not renew if the house has more than 3-4 in its lifetime. Put another way about 50% smell odd; but 99.9% or paid becuase no witness or smoking gun is found and is not even looked for, just pay and close.

Thanks Roy for reminding all of us for the unique value of the archives.

The top of this thread posted in red is the true value of the forum group.  I sincerely appreciate what you have done with your web site for our industry and it's members.  I am sure that the education that is available within can not be matched anywhere on the internet.  It is a credit to your patience and wisdom that has allowed it to become the go to place for Cat Adjusters to hone their skills.  Thanks for allowing me to contribute and participate.

William S Cook

PA

It is really great how much discussion we generate thru questions we post on this forum.  Mr. Cook and others have shown us the importance of disecting the coverage or lack of thru reading the policy in depth. This is a good example of what every adjuster must do in order to find or deny coverage for the insured.

 This was my goal to show what is part of our job as adjusters to the insured ,the carier and everyone involved in the claim process.

That being said I must explain our area in western Montana. This is a well kept secret to keep people from wanting to move here. In the winter time we are affected by many snow storms in some years. We do not have the wind you read about or see on the weather channel. We are located in a long wide valley

with a 28 mile long lake ,known as Flathead Lake that has a different effect also on our weather. When we get snow many times it is a heavy wet snow. That can build up for several days or weeks. We also have a light continuous wind that can show up at any time, they refer to as Chinook wind. You can get a variation of 40+ degrees upward when this wind blows thru. There has been times when there is a substantial amount of ice back up damage in the area.

It is hard for people to understand the weather we have here as we are nestled in this valley with mountains to the west & east of us. These in a way shelter us from winds that you hear about in eastern Montana. When we moved here I drove my wife nutso because I would be out taking photos of snow buildup on fence posts that measured in excess of 12". The weather changes a lot here and there are extremes most people are not use to .Some years the mountains have enough snow that snowmobilers and skiers can still be enjoying their hobby as late as April and May. I have been standing knee deep in snow on 4th of July getting bitten by misquitos by a mountain lake fishing in cut offs and hiking boots. The valley here can have green grass growing and being mowed twice a week while there is still tons of snow in the mountains.

Enough on the rambling here but I had to describe some of the adversities of the weather here we enjoy the majority of the time.

I than k you all for your input on these questions we each pose to help each other to stay sharp and informed in the industry we share.

The best part is that nobody's mother was dragged into the conversation !!!!!!!!!!

LOL

In my earlier post I did comment that my neighbor ladie's carrier did cover her claim. They went into the attic braced all the rafters back into place and fish plated them w/ new supports on both sides of each rafter. when we talk about collapse does it include partial collapse , I would think so. If there is a collapse of any kind it would fall under collapse from weight of ice and snow. A roof and framing is covered if a tree damages a roof and it is partially collapsed. remember all perils.

When dealing with a "risk of Loss" policy think like the underwriters who have revised the language many times in the last 55 years. First think of the named perils(about 95% of property losses are in these 14-16 named perils or as few as 9-10). Now think of unexpected ,  unenteded or not anticapated from the standpoint of the insuror  or the insured and you probably have a risk of loss claim for direct physical damage to "insured property".Do not rush too "if its not excluded, its covered" this is poor advise, just the read the exclusions that all property policies have and you may get the intent of the definition of risk. Just remember  "a risk" can be fortuitous; but, it can not be inevitable.

This was pounded into my brain over 50 years ago and I have had to repeat this lesson many times.  A few times times in the witness box.

*** Please do not confuse life styles of certain insured.s, as: "insured propery" and remember direct physical damage is visable and can be repaired by a man***

**** New people please note****

Remember "all perils" unless excluded by policy language or included because Insurance comissioner said to "pay it"

If growing tree roots cause the roof and  framing to partially collapse...no coverage will apply

Posted By William S Cook on 09 Dec 2010 10:17 PM

Remember "all perils" unless excluded by policy language or included because Insurance comissioner said to "pay it"

If growing tree roots cause the roof and  framing to partially collapse...no coverage will apply, a tree in and of itsef is not a peril, partial collapse is excluded in the provided policy