| 07/05/2009 2:32 AM |
|
|
That article really cuts to the chase. Both of you guys offer top notch advice. Thanks. The GriGri makes most sense given our comparatively low slope work, less than full load, its lower cost, and its lighter weight. The stabilizer / info is also great. This will help on some mansard roofs that I have had trouble with in the past, where there is an uncomfortable gap from the ladder to the roof. Thanks,
RJ
|
|
| 0 |
|
Tom TollModerator & Life Member  Senior Member Posts:1865  
| 07/05/2009 12:16 PM |
|
|
Too bad there is not a walk through extension for the Little Giant of knock off. Sure would make ascending and descending safer. If anyone knows of one, please let me know. That is the only thing I don't like about the Little Giant. The wings cause you to have to step to the side too much to be safe, at least to me.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
|
|
| 0 |
|
BobH Veteran Member Posts:759 
| 07/05/2009 3:40 PM |
|
Posted By Tom Toll on 05 Jul 2009 12:16 PM
Too bad there is not a walk through extension for the Little Giant of knock off.
If you can cut a wood spacer, the "Walk-through" will fit on a little giant. You have to remove one of the sliding extensions, and replace it with the Walk-through. For my 17' Little Giant it works out to about the same length, because the Walk-through adds 3' to the top ladder rung.
Here's the deal, the "Walk-through" has an opening made to accommodate a fiberglass ladder. It fits very snug to a fiberglass ladder, tighten the screw and it is rock-solid.
That opening is rather loose depending on what size aluminum ladder you use. For most 2 story aluminum ladders it fits OK when you tighten down the screws, but for my 16' ladder I like to put a piece of a ruler (1' cut off a yardstick, or piece of lath) between the ladder and the "Walk-through", then crank down the tightening screw.
For a little giant you have to put in a few pieces of lath, or a 1x2 to fill the void before tightening the screw.
I used my table saw to rip a strip of wood the exact size needed to fill the void to my little giant rails, and when I tighten the screws it is pretty darn solid.
The relationship of the "ladder to drip edge" remains as it has always been. We are talking about something extending up above the drip edge, and it is strong and stable enough for me not to worry at all about it.
Certainly beats stepping around the outer perimeter of the ladder as you place your body out-of-balance to get on an inclined surface...
Visualize carrying a bundle of shingles and swinging around the side of the ladder. You would prefer the "Walk-through" even if the extended arms could be pushed & moved slightly. They aren't going anywhere, they are anchored to the rung of the ladder and cannot fall off or anything. They will stabilize you getting on-off the roof, and that is their purpose. They do not support the weight of your body, you don't "step" on them, the stability of the ladder remains unchanged if they are present or not in terms of placement on ground up the roof eve.
-----------------------------------------------
I have seen the I "Walk-Through" at 2 different large tool outlet supplies recently (though you won't find it at Lowe's or Home Depot). If you call some roofing supply and specialty tool outlets I bet you can find a place locally that has them in stock. So you can see for yourself how it can fit on whatever ladder you have before you make a commitment to buy it.
Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
ChuckDeatonLife Member Senior Member Posts:1110 
| 07/05/2009 4:02 PM |
|
Test "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
|
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/05/2009 4:06 PM |
|
Chuck, that is quite the "Super Slide".
OK, this is an example of a cut-up roof, and sometimes you can't place the rope exactly where you want it. See the circle up to my right? when I drew that chalk circle I had the rope almost sideways, but even if I slipped I wouldn't have gone down to the ground.
5,000 Sf Mansion
Right hip of same 2 story house. Thank goodness for the chimney, to keep the rope from sliding down below that point.
I am using the same Gri-Gri for all of this, and with a cut-up roof it does take some time to work up & down the various faces & get in position. Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
| 07/06/2009 10:33 AM |
|
|
Bob:
Can you post some pics of how you secure your ladder to the clamps and the fascia? Thanks, Rich J.
|
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/06/2009 9:47 PM |
|
I don't have any right now... gimmie some time because I am 7 days into a new deployment working very long hours.
I'm not currently on a 2-story-steep team, but did rope off today on a 10/12.
Once you get very familiar with the knots, tools, and process it doesn't take that much longer - and makes you feel in control rather that "what if". Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
HuskerCatVeteran Member Posts:762 
| 07/07/2009 1:23 AM |
|
In my younger days, this roof would not have been intimidating...other than finding a way to get there and then get off. Once on, it's a go. Might have a little to do with growing up on a farm and riding a little wagon out of the hay loft cupalo down off the roof of a cow barn onto a hay stack, then climbing back up and doing it over again and again. But now after age has set in, those ropes don't look like a bad idea if I can find someone to go up first and put them in place. |
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/07/2009 8:53 PM |
|
On that roof above, 15 years of HOT Atlanta sun fried it. The granules were showering off like BB's. Cougar-Paws helped immensely, but my feet were still slipping out from under me at times, forcing me to lean back on the rope to get more perpendicular to the 45 degree angle roof. I personally would have fallen if I was not roped off on that roof. I would not have climbed it without a rope.
In terms of safety, I don't think it's the good condition roofs that cause trouble. It's the ones with issues. Like the guy at the last site I was at, who had a shingle pull out from under him. Broke his leg. That should never happen, but how the hell would you know. Likely 2 layers, or stapled, or didn't see a fold-back-crease line that weakened the tab. Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
Tim_Johnson Member Posts:243
| 07/08/2009 10:14 AM |
|
|
It looks like the roof on the big red brick house has been patched on more than once
Tim Johnson
|
|
| 0 |
|
Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 07/08/2009 11:08 AM |
|
|
I have a lot more respect for adjusters who use ropes than I did before I read all these post. Do you get paid $150.00 more on these roofs than walk on's?
|
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/08/2009 10:01 PM |
|
|
If one is on a "component billing" schedule, the $150 fee adds to the adjusting invoice, but for the carrier I work for they only pay that if TWO PEOPLE are utilized. You have to have a "ground person" to bill for it. I have heard exceptions, but that's how it worked at the last site, and the current site I am at. You give some of that $150 to the ground person.
If you don't utilize 2 people, then it is just the typical add-on for steep fee which is something like $40 added to the bill.
for the Carrier I am working for you cannot simply grab an assistant for the occasional roof, it is more of a formal thing where the ground person is part of a known 2-man team and the vendor & carrier know who is going into the building with you. Over 1/2 the people on my last deployment working 2-story steep were on a day rate, which is not all that much higher than normal (non-steep) day rate for the lead adjuster, and much lower than normal day rate for the ground person.
Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 07/08/2009 10:39 PM |
|
I don,t think you should not charge for steep if you paid your due. But if you own a rope rigging and do it alone, they charge $150.00 in New England. You and your ability is worth the same. You have kinda painted yourself into a corner Bob, you will be the first witness the plaintiffs widow will call on the poor sole who tried to walk a roof without a rope. These insurance companies have to pay for special tools and hazards. Just ask the carrier/vendor if they write Homeowners in New England and you are doing the same for $40.00, because the VENDOR will not stand up for their SERVANT. |
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/08/2009 11:51 PM |
|
Personally I did not seek out Rope & Harness training to make additional money.
I knew for a fact that I had been on spooky widow-maker roofs that I had no business being on, and lucky to get down without sliding off.
This is the one I mentioned a few pages ago, where I went out to a store in 2005 to buy a rope and could not get it over the ridge because the roof went from 1 story up to 3 and was HUGE. Their 2-story garage apartment behind looks small. Today I know I could get my rope over it with proper messenger line* & pull the full size rope back over.
As a 9/12 it was borderline, but the condition made it spooky - stuff pulling out from your feet all the time.
All I ever wanted was to learn how to be safe on a roof, and didn't particularly feel like asking for more than was being offered (the schedule wouldn't change anyway).
As independent professionals, we are expected to know our trade. Either decline the file with the widow-maker roof, or accept it and do it safely. I harbor no ill-will toward any Carrier, or Vendor, and consider that I am responsible for my actions and my own safety.
------------------
* Lately I am having the best results by casting a monofilament line over the roof with a fishing rod, and use that to pull back a cord that is about 80 feet long that is tied to the actual climbing rope. 20 lb monofilament will not pull a heavy climbing rope, but it will pull back something about 2mm thick (like parachute cord or the "slick line" that kevin uses). Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
| 07/09/2009 12:55 AM |
|
|
The 9/12 in your picture wouldn't be borderline for me. Even in good shape, if a 9/12 is two story, I'll rope up. I might slip up a valley on a 9/12 single story, but not if the eaves are 20 foot off the ground. I did a 12/12 pitch yesterday in Denver where the gutters between the houses were 24 inches apart. I could get a ladder on it, but no room for me unless I climbed upside down. Steep pitch shed roofs on front and back prevented access that way.
I finally found a way to lodge the corner of the gutter and roof solidly between the ladder rungs and climb that way. Fishing pole with roll of elec. tape got a line across, then a 3/16 rope tied to the main rope, tied off on both ends and I was on my way. Because the ladder was stable but unusual, I stayed tied off to the rope as I went up the ladder. I forgot my gloves so it was a "hot and steep". Ouch! My legs were like rubber after swinging from the rope to chalk up two test squares, count vents, and take pictures. I work by myself, so I got only the $40 you mentioned and fee, but I closed a file. Just like you, that's the reason I do it.
Not long ago I wanted to be an adjuster; today I am one. Be careful what you ask for.
Randy Cox
|
|
| 0 |
|
| 07/09/2009 8:55 AM |
|
Bob- I am very interested in learning how to utilize R&H and have been for some time, but just have not had time to check it out more. I am located about 1.5 hours from where you are working now, if you wanted a hand roping any claims down there i would be more than willing to assist, just so i can get a better idea or how to go about it. |
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/09/2009 10:18 PM |
|
Posted By RandyC on 09 Jul 2009 12:55 AM
.... I did a 12/12 pitch yesterday in Denver ...I work by myself, so I got only the $40 you mentioned and fee, but I closed a file.
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is working for the same carrier I am, but in a different state (Oklahoma) and they have had him doing 2-story steep by himself with no assistant and allow the full $150 charge... I have heard it go both ways - seems to depend on the local management interpretation it seems.
Posted By Amart on 09 Jul 2009 08:55 AM
I am located about 1.5 hours from where you are working now, if you wanted a hand roping any claims down there i would be more than willing to assist, just so i can get a better idea or how to go about it.
Cool, I will E-mail you if something comes up that I can predict.
So far, this area doesn't have a lot of steep roofs (I have roped up once in 10 days).
I do not consider myself an expert at this - if you want really good training I just have to say that the class I took with Kevin was excellent (the guy who started this thread). He was State Farm staff for years, R&H trainer, now he's been an independent for years.
Anyone who is serious about learning this stuff should start out by practicing 2 knots that you will use constantly:
-Bowline on a Bight for the climbing rope
-Water knot for the webbing.
Just do them while you are stuck in front of the TV or whatever, until you trust your knots with no hesitation.
Kevin has an E-book that displays the knots and how they are used, I think the E-book is something like $30 and goes toward purchase of class if you do it. I have done a lot of commercial general liability work over the years, and believe that anyone who sticks their neck out to teach others how to climb steep roof has balls the size of coconuts. Gotta be motivated to spread the word for safety, and after meeting Kevin personally I believe that is his intent. Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
| 07/21/2009 12:22 AM |
|
|
Geez Bob, you're more brave than I am.
I do it because I want to provide a better life for my family than my parents could provide for me.
|
|
| 0 |
|
BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
| 07/21/2009 7:50 AM |
|
Y'know the expression "Going out on a tight-rope without a Net"?
I have been on spooky roofs with a rope, and without a rope.
One has to be a lot more brave (courageous, stupid, whatever) to get on a widow-maker roof without a rope. It doesn't take a lot of bravery to rope-off, it's just a method to get where you need to be in a fairly controlled manner.
It does take longer, but then again, you don't have to wait for bones to heal. Bob H
|
|
| 0 |
|
| 07/21/2009 2:49 PM |
|
|
I have been roped up for the past few days, and I have been using the GriGri by Petzl. Here's a brief report. It takes a few minutes to figure out how to use the GriGri device since it has so many options- hauling, belaying, rappelling, etc. Easiest way to rope up correctly is to remember that the static belay anchor should be in the direction of the engraved "climber" on the device. This took a bit to figure out. Once you cross the ridge of the roof though, you have to take the grigri off the rope and switch the rope direction. Bob mentioned this before, but it is pretty easy to forget about this when you are looking at the roof. It was also important to remember to feed the extra rope through to establish tension from the other static belay point before heading down the other side.
I also have been using a Petzl ascender as an alternate attachment device. You can use 2 ascenders if it is a really steep roof. The ascender is a bit easier to use than the grigri since it adds much less tension to the rope when the rope is being pulled through, but it is more on-off when descending. I think descending with the ascender is fine on a medium steep roof, but for a really steep roof or for controlled rappels (let's say if your ladder is not tied off and falls) the grigri would be a much better device since it is more gradual in terms of stopping. So, I think the grigri is probably more versatile of the two devices.
|
|
| 0 |
|