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Last Post 09/15/2009 6:22 PM by  RJortberg
FIrestone .045 rubber roof question......
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ekraft
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06/05/2008 5:48 PM

    I am working a commercial loss in which insured alleges "wind" damage to rubber roofing membrane around perimeter of roof.  Approx area is 355' x 78'.  9' to 12' high parapet wall on front, 6' to 8' high on rear, and 4' to 5' high on both sides.  Parapet walls are 3T asphalt shingles attached to vertically with flashing at rubber membrane.  3T attached with nails.  See photos.

    Insured alleges perimeter is pulling away due to "wind".  My argument is that "wind" MAY have been a factor but I feel most of the "damage" may have resulted from expansion/contraction, positive/negative pressure, and other factors.

    Anyone have any thoughts or has had a similar loss??????

     

     

    Rooftop

    Membrane feels"spongy" like walking on an inner tube.  Air pocket underneath....

    Flashing still intact.  Membrane loose.

     

    These are examples, some more or less severe, of entire roof area

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    Ray Hall
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    06/05/2008 6:30 PM

    Gather all the insureds experts written material, write up your thoughts and ask the carrier for permission to call in Haag or another roof expert for another opine. The black shingles appear to be unsealed {not always wind damage} This looks like a cold zone roof and will move a lot with snow storms and bright sun the next day. These charcoal black fiberglass shingle often break horizonaly in the middle when the are sealed very well on a normal slope roof  from the day light freeze thaw by strong sunshine. I would think some of the tabs had never been sealed  properly on these parapet walls. The styro foam insulation beneath the rubber may be from 2 to 4 inches thick and give the soft feel. Ever adjuster needs help on a claim like this. Hang in there, but ask for help.

    Bet you have a PA or insured fishing on this one.

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    JimGary
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    06/05/2008 7:17 PM

    I just worked a roof like this, with same problem.  Wound up using an engineer.  The shrinkage was so bad on the one I inspected, it looked like a trampoline, and pulled the flashing away from the walls. Of couse the insured claimed wind.

    I know the voices aren't real, but sometimes they're right!
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    katadj
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    06/05/2008 9:44 PM
    Installation is basically the same for all .045 materials. Carlisle, Firestone, whomever.

    I did not see a pressure bar at the perimeter, only a cap flashing. This is an improper installation. The wind uplift against a raised parapet of the heights you describe are not apparent.

    As a former Carlisle approved vendor , i challenge the installation method and strongly suggest that the roofing material manufacturer be called in , as they do inspect every roof that is installed by a certified vendor.
    "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new... Albert Einstein"
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    ekraft
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    06/05/2008 10:44 PM

    We are in a cold zone here in Idaho. I contacted carrier after posting.....Carrier wanted me to determine amount of wind damage???????  Told adjuster I could not.  I recommended use of an engineer.........

    I have had a few "wind" claims on the parapet walls.  3T shingles are always coming loose in every windstorm.  Wind gets swirling around on top even when there is a slight breeze on the ground.  Advised carrier that I told insured they may want to think about installing a different roofing material on the parapet walls.....

    No PA's here!!!!!!  IF insured gets one, it will be from out of state.

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    ekraft
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    06/05/2008 10:48 PM
    Posted By R .D. Hood on 06/05/2008 9:44 PM
    Installation is basically the same for all .045 materials. Carlisle, Firestone, whomever.

    I did not see a pressure bar at the perimeter, only a cap flashing. This is an improper installation. The wind uplift against a raised parapet of the heights you describe are not apparent.

    As a former Carlisle approved vendor , i challenge the installation method and strongly suggest that the roofing material manufacturer be called in , as they do inspect every roof that is installed by a certified vendor.



    You are correct....no pressure bar at the perimeter.  Only two expansion joints along the 355' span.  I met with the roofer today who did the install 14 years ago.  Got them to admit that "wind" not the only apparent cause.....however, they stand firm on proper install.

    I have recommended to carrier that an engineer be called in.......

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    ekraft
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    06/05/2008 10:51 PM
    Posted By Jim Gary on 06/05/2008 7:17 PM

    I just worked a roof like this, with same problem.  Wound up using an engineer.  The shrinkage was so bad on the one I inspected, it looked like a trampoline, and pulled the flashing away from the walls. Of couse the insured claimed wind.



    Jim:  What did your engineer determine, if I may ask?

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    HuskerCat
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    06/06/2008 12:25 AM

    Im looking at your photos & reading the above responses, and wondering what caused the loss as reported.  Was there some interior water damage, or something like that?   What happened to cause a claim to be made?  Looks like a tough one unless an expert determines the true cause of loss.

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    ekraft
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    06/06/2008 11:59 AM
    Posted By Mike Kunze on 06/06/2008 12:25 AM

    Im looking at your photos & reading the above responses, and wondering what caused the loss as reported.  Was there some interior water damage, or something like that?   What happened to cause a claim to be made?  Looks like a tough one unless an expert determines the true cause of loss.


    There are 5 buildings; all with similar damages.   One of the individual units has water damage to 12 2x4 ceiling tiles.  Insured files claim because many of the arch shingles on the store frontages blew off.  The rubber roofing damage was discovered while investigating the shingle damages.

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    JimGary
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    06/07/2008 7:15 PM
    Posted By Eric Kraft on 06/05/2008 10:51 PM
    Posted By Jim Gary on 06/05/2008 7:17 PM

    Jim:  What did your engineer determine, if I may ask?



    Still awaiting final, but verbally, agrees, improper install, no dmg from covered peril.

    JWG

    I know the voices aren't real, but sometimes they're right!
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    HuskerCat
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    06/08/2008 1:46 AM

    I hear you cluckin' big chicken.......where's the cause of loss & evident damage.  Appears to be an obvious case of poor/irregular installation that caused the installation, especially, if there were no other claim events in the locality. 

     

     

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    RJortberg
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    09/15/2009 6:22 PM

    Bump this old post to the top...

    I was reading this old post and looking at the pictures of what appears to be an improper installation. Does anybody know how this one was resolved? Jim- how did yours settle? I do not know what a pressure bar is in terms of an EPDM installation. I gather from this post and the website below that the pressure bar / termination bar is a metal strip that is screwed in place that forms a pressure seal of the EPDM membrane to a wall surface. Then a counter or step flashing would cover the epdm liner and pressure bar to shed water from getting under the EPDM liner. Not sure of this is right? Also, any opinions on if this is an improper roof installation or wind damage.

    http://www.conservationtechnology.c...edges.html
     

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