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Its a new one for me also. 1955

DITTO Here also, but with only 40-50 years of experience what thr F&^% do i know?

Thanks for the responses.  I wanted to throw this out to the rest of you because I have primarily worked for one carrier for the last few years.  This has never been an issue with them.  I did work for a carrier a  number of years ago that indicated that roof penetrations exceeding 24SF should be considered for deduction.  Even though they are very uncommon, I think that large penetrations that significantly decrease the area being roofed should be deducted.  I can recall making such a  deduction to a dwelling in Florida where about 50% of the rear slope was a custom skylight over an indoor pool.  However, deducting standard vents and chimneys does not seem appropriate or realistic.  Since this does not appear to be a widespread trend, my friend may be working with an examiner who is not familiar with the guidelines.  I will ask him to follow up and let me know what he finds out.  Thanks again for your input!

Yes sir i am aware of this, however the post does not mention if the requested deductions or for removal, replacement or both. I was noting that the waste factor would likely be enough for replacement of these areas regardless of the intent by the carrier to reduce the loss amount owed. This seems like it would be the request of an examiner who is unaware that a waste factor is standard, and much needed for shingle replacement. I have never thought to ask, but is the waste factor allowance for shingle replacement merely enough or substantially more than is needed . All of the roofing replacement's i have seen appear to have quite a bit of left over shingle tabs lying about the property or dumpster.

I am going to agree with Larry. Go out with a roofing crew and help re-roof a house, then see if minor roof penetrations should be considered waste. I have roofed several houses on my own and find it to be a bad way to make a living. I would not do it for all the tea in China, nor would I own a roofing company. If you have several very large opening for skylights, you could make a small deduction, but it is not worth the trouble counting the single tabs your would be saving. 10 and 15% waste factors have been around since I started in 1961 and should never be changed.

Yep, and for those who want to see it in writing, there is a reference that is commonly referred to in measuring roofs. It is only 4 pages long, but has everything you need to know.

You can order reprints of this March 1997 article for $10 including postage:

Just go here   http://www.npccrs.com/drlist.php?type=pdr 
and find issue 517  (scroll down)

I learned about this PDR reference from a State Farm trainer.  I have seen a training CD from Farmers with the same waste factors. 

That article also talks about "Cut Up" roofs, which they define as having more than 4 valleys.  They recommend allowing an additional 2% waste for a "cut up roof" - but I have run into resistance on that point. Everyone seems to agree on 10% for gable roof, 15% for hip, and this reference uses that as a starting point.  It also describes rounding up to the nearest bundle - because you cannot go to the roofing supply store and buy a partial bundle.

This reference makes no mention of deducting for chimney openings, vents, etc.  You would have to have a rather obvious area of missing roof to deduct it - not a simple penetration.

My first response to reading the thread title "Deducting Roof Openings" was "C'mon, get real!" My response after thinking about it is "C'mon, get real!" I see a pattern emerging here.

Were I a roofer and I was asked to deduct the tab I cut off to allow for a vent opening, I would charge an extra labor charge to allow me to figure out where I can put that single tab in order to avoid excess waste. 

Unless my memory is worse than I think it is, the standard for repair costs paid by an insurance company is "prevailing local standards" of construction.  In a courtroom this standard is the practices used by local contractors.  There is another name for standards forced upon contractors by insurance companies.  The name is "bad faith", and it cost a whole lot more than the cost of the extra tab spared by deducting for the vent opening.

There is one aspect to this that I have never understood.  Since I wrote my first claim in 1983, the rule has always been that the # of squares torn off paid for= actual square footage before adding the waste factor.  However, every roofer I have ever dealt with as both an adjuster and as a renovation contractor up through this year,  takes the total squares including waste and charges for tear off and put on. When ever I have asked the roofer about this, the basic answer is that even though there is no waste, they have to tear off the felt and get it into the dumpster, they have to clean the yard, tear off step flashing normally,  and have to sweep for nails, and they are also tearing off overlapping shingles in the valleys along with the ridge caps.

So why is it, if this is the local standard way of pricing, that we can not pay in this manner?

I agree that "most" roof bids I have seen are written as R&R "___" amount. They keep it simple, the homeowner has 30 squares of simple gable roof and the estimate simply mentions 33 squares on and off. So the roofer is charging for removal of 300 square feet of roofing that doesn't exist.

I suppose there are various explanations, including the one you posted. I believe the Insurance world requires very detailed descriptions. Yet most contractors (that don't focus on insurance work) are happy to write a single page estimate. For a roof it may be a few sentences in the middle of the page. The guy could have all sorts of diagrams and cost accounting figures, but they just do a simple proposal to the customer.

Of course a subcontractor who doesn't use Xactimate doesn't care what the software tells you is included when you hit F-8.   But removal of asphalt comp shingles says "Includes: Dump fees, hauling, disposal, and labor to remove composition shingles and felt."

Step flashing should be added as a separate line item if needed - if it was overlooked then they may need to be inventive to cover their costs.

One of the things that really helped me understand negotiating with roofers at a CAT site is how much the salesperson makes. They are offered a huge % of the job and it has to come from somewhere. That same person is tasked with dealing with the insurance company and homeowner until they get paid. Some roofing sales people are great, and I'm not throwing rocks here. But when it comes to isolating "why" my estimate and theirs are so far apart, a lot of time gets wasted on granular details -- while we ignore the elephant in the room. The price is inflated to allow for the sales commission that attracted the guy to hire on as a roof salesman for that storm.

Eventually the database is tweaked to allow for supply-demand of a CAT site, and the claims & re-opens get settled.  One other example of R&R would be flooring.  The Insurance world doesn't want to pay for removal of more than was there, but will allow waste on the "put back. 

The majority of flooring contractors write something that doesn't confuse the customer with any of this.  Ma'am you need 47 yards of carpet and this is your price.  We will take your old stuff and haul it away.  The main focus is on replacement, the removal is just a necessary evil.

I have been working as certified roofing and general contractor in the State of Florida for the last 25 years, Specializing in residential and commercial Hi Wind areas,when we measure the roof I never have deducted for pipe openings, we use a lead flashing and that is secured to the base sheet then a hole is cut in the shingles to allow the lead flashing to penetrate so if we have a 4" pipe the formula for sq area would be 2r*3.14 or approx 6" or 1 tab of a 3-tab shingle, now when get to a skylight we must remove the skylight and reflash it other wise we have a leak, this all depends on the type of skylight that we use, we have a self flashing which leaks all the time, we have a curb mount and we have a standard mount, now if your working in a Hi wind area then all eaves & rakes must be set in 8" of roofers mastic, the same for all pipes and any other penetrations coming thru the roof deck. Valleys must be set in 6" of mastic on each side and a 8" layer of mastic on a 1/2 laced valley, open valleys are set in 6" of mastic on each side. No step flashing is allowed on head walls, you must use a continous piece laped 3 " , I was doing Desk Adjusting with an Public adjusting firm using Xactimate, I'm on the phone with Xactimate's estimating department almost every week checking out problems that I find with their program, the New FBC2001 and greater building code is based upon on wind loads and does not compare to any other building code in the USA that I have worked or adjusted.

The wonderful world of adjusting, Deducting for skylights is silly. Ive been adjusting for 14 years and worked as a contractor 15 years prior to that and nobody that I know deducts for skylights or even adds for a simple dormer.  Bottom line you owe for the amount of squares it takes to complete the roof, If I was you I would get ready to write alot of supplements , Have Fun.

"an insurance adjusters estimate is worthless, unless the adjuster can get the work done for the estimate"

Now these little disputes can be settled on the spot by a good adjuster and a resonable policyholder. Do your job and explain your reasons... it works.