| 10/07/2009 9:23 AM |
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As a new adjuster, I am trying to find a guide/explanation of the roofing codes (ie; 220 240, etc) used to define roofing types on an estimate. Can someone direct me to a site that will define these differences? Jim Acree
Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn
Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn
I am ignorant
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Ray Hall Senior Member Posts:2443  
| 10/07/2009 10:27 AM |
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Its pretty simple the 220 , 240 and 90# is the weight per 100 sq feet. The black felt weight is 15# and 30#. Some time the felt is double felted and it will weigh 2x15=30 and 2x30=60. The diminsion shingles start about 230# and go up to 350#, but they do not use weight on diminsion(arch.) shingles they use25, 30 & 40 years. The most used weight is 30 year. A BUR built up roof is layers of felt mopped down with hot asphalt and is 3 or 4 ply, with or without ballast(pea gravel, coke, iron ore etc) The 220 & 240 X shingles come three bundels per sq. (about 27 shingles The diminsion shingles come 4 bundles per sq. The shingle tabs should not be exposed more than 5.5 inchs and have 4 nails per shingle. A shingle should not be placed on a roof that does not have a pitch of more than 2.5 inch rise in one foot. These shingles should be exposed 5 inches. On any pitch less than 2.1/2 pitch another type membrane should be applied.
The roof deck is very important. It should be 15/32 CD plywood with the C side up. The roof deck that is glue and saw dust is very good. It will hold the nails very well and will not rot or swell.Stapes are not good. 4 nail per shingle minimum (36 inch long).
Go to amazon and you can find all kind of books on platform construction for very cheap. What is platform construction, that is what 97% of new residentual dwellings are constructed to day. Get a book on Framing (wagner) on Amazon and read it. I will help new people who help themselves. I will answer questions , but I will ask a lot to see how lazy you are and quit wasting my time. Estimate your house for a new paint job inside and out and sent it to me. IF can not do this simple task do not waste my time.
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| 10/07/2009 4:09 PM |
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Ray, thank you for the information on the framing book from Amazon, I will check, I may have an old copy of it. The reason for my question was that Xactimate utilizes the 220, 230 etc terms in thier price lists for estimating claims. I was aware that 220 was a term for a square of shingles weighing 220#. Having done a lot of reasearch on the internet, a review of the Eberle What's What with Wind and Hail, and the State Farm Certification Test Workbook I had not found a definition of how to determine these grades when scoping a roof.
As far as wanting to learn,I am a sponge for information. As I get deeper into scoping claims you will see a number of posts from me wanting to know various interpertations, as interperted by the claims adjusting firms, and/or insurance carriers. In my short adjusting career which consists of attending schools I have found a number of terms that are not interperted the same as they are in the field of residential repair/remodeling. The repair/remodel field, for example will have me go buy 20, 30, or 50 year shingles in either three tab, or dimensional with no comment on 220, 230, etc.
Again thank you for your response, I anticipate the ability to learn by tapping your knowledge in the future.
Jim Acree
Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn
Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn
I am ignorant
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Tim_Johnson Member Posts:243
| 10/07/2009 8:17 PM |
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I think these days if you put 3 bundles of 220's on a scale you will find they actually weigh about 175#, 220's is a term alot of use old timers use but I don't think they are actually 220# per sq any longer
Tim Johnson
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 10/07/2009 8:35 PM |
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You have ask a very good question about how do you know the diff. between 220 and 230 or 240. Tim is probably more accurate than I am. A little metal single gauge used to be used by State Farm. Its not accurate either because of the mat, organic(paper) or fiberglass. Its just really a SWAG so just let the roofers beat you down like they do most adjusters, this does not mean either one of you are more correct. 15 peple making comp shingles 15, 20, 25 and 30 years about the only one;s you can spot after looking at 500 roofs are the real light weight shingles. Ask the owner for the warranty papers (they never have them)
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 10/07/2009 8:46 PM |
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Do you know the differance between # 2 pine studs, plates and No 3. Pine or fir solid rather than finger joint base or door trim (with very good painters) or a 8 inch base in an expensive house with some shoe molod you have never seen and some type mold on the top that you have never seen and not a blemish in 80 lf.
This is nnot mld. off the shelf its probably ripped lumber core planks cut in 6inch strips of a 4x8 sheet with some oak or pine nold on top and bottom and done by a cabinet maker beveled 45 ends butted up, filled primed and painted to look line original mld and it is. Takes time to see all you will see, just like medical school and law school, about one yesar to be out of the worm stage and then at least 2 more of 600 to 1000 losses per year until you get about 4,000 under your belt. No short cuts. Trust me.
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Tim_JohnsonMember Posts:243
| 10/07/2009 9:00 PM |
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Ray,
On my historic home I just posted on another thread we had to pay a tradesman $4,000 just to make / set up knives in order to replicate and cut the 12" base and 12" crown. Thatwas just his starting point, we then had to pay for the trim.
Tim Johnson
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| 10/08/2009 7:23 AM |
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I appreciate all of the posts on my question. As a repair/remodler since 1991 I have seen many of the variances in construction, trim, cabintery, flooring, framing, roofing, electrical, and plumbing that can show up in residential construction. It appears from some of the posts above that the adjuster has to use his best judgement, weighed againt the insured's or insured's desiginated representative to "best apply" his experience/judgement to the style, grade, etc of the damaged area. After applying his best judgement, he then is subject to the review of the claims company/carrier as to thier interpertation of his judgement. Many of the posts that I have read may not have put enough emphasis on the minute documentation by way of scope notes/photos to substantiate the adjusters decision. I will keep this in mind as I continue to learn the "ins and outs" of claims adjusting. Also for Ray, I have done a roof estimate on my house in Xactimate, but do not know how to get it to you. Your request to estimate the inside/outside paint was too easy.
Jim Acree
Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn
Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn
I am ignorant
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ddreisbachMember Posts:172 
| 10/08/2009 8:47 AM |
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Interesting discussion, but from a practical point of view 98% of the roofs you see will have either 25 year 3-tab or 30 year dimensional shingles. You will occasionally see really lightweight 3-tabs or noticeably heavier weight 3-tabs or dimensionals. Call me Santa, but on the lightweight 3-tabs I pay for 25 year replacement. With heavyweight shingles I slip my Haag shingle gage on one and take a picture for the file examiner.
MSB offers 20, 25 & 30 year 3-tabs, and 30, 40, 50 year & lifetime dimensionals. No mention of weight per square.
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
| 10/08/2009 11:21 AM |
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exactly, the data base does not take out the experience factor, this is why you need experience to work claims. When you deal with something that is made by a man, it stands to reason it can be re- made by men. You job as the adjuster is too do a spead sheet and keep track of the cost or to get bids on a project to lower the cost. take the one shot claims thinking out of your thinking if you ever expect to be in the top ten. In hurricane Andrew I did not know what it cost to build a a rig that could drill a well in 6000 feet of water 15,000 feet in the earth from the bottom of the Gulf, but 18 months later I had all the cost on a spread sheet on a pure indemnity policy and ask the underwriters for a check for $53 million dollars for the rig and $27,5 million loss of income.
Yes I had been a offshore salesman/service man for 10 years, but never, adjusted a rig/.ship that was found on the bottom 40 miles from its location. If you are new , old people slow down, think, take on big complex cases, dig, dig, ask ask, think think you will be able to injoy and see things you never dreamed about. I had been an adjuster fire & casualty for 17 years and in the Energy field for 10 years when I got this oppartunity of a life time and I will always be grateful. Just remember on a $10,000 HO-3 windstorm you can do it as well as the top 10% of windstorm adjusters in the world, and don,t you want to be remembered as one of the "best" |
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| 10/11/2009 11:40 AM |
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Posted By Ray Hall on 08 Oct 2009 11:21 AM
You job as the adjuster is too do a spead sheet and keep track of the cost or to get bids on a project to lower the cost. take the one shot claims thinking out of your thinking if you ever expect to be in the top ten....and don,t you want to be remembered as one of the "best"
Some adjusters take the "I am here to save the insurance company money" approach. I am not saying that's wrong, but I tend to focus on putting the insured back like he was, and the cost falls where it may. This may just be a difference in description, like is the glass half full or half empty, but for the average claim, I try to find a fair cost within the range of fair settlements, and then move on to the next one. Again, for the average claim, one shot handling seems to work best, at least for me.
Speaking of average, for those of us average adjusters, which by definition is most of us, I would be happy to be considered average. Every now and then I hit a home run, but most of the time I plod along with singles and doubles. (Can you tell its baseball playoff time?) I would be happy to be remembered as one of the best "average" adjusters out there. That's just me. |
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okclarryd Veteran Member Posts:954
| 10/11/2009 7:50 PM |
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I've been "average" for a long time.
I always thought that meant that I was ahead of half of 'em.
Happy Trails
Larry D Hardin
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| 10/12/2009 9:59 AM |
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Nowadays average puts you in the top 10%. I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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ChuckDeatonLife Member Senior Member Posts:1110 
| 10/12/2009 2:15 PM |
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No matter how you approach the job, your best bet is an accurate, agreed scope. Anything completed by the adjuster, after the scope, is an estimate. Plus or minus 10% is as good as you can do if the estimate is based on an accurate scope. The scope is based on "what is" not on "what if" and is based on a covered peril subject to the terms and conditions of the policy in effect.
"Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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| 10/12/2009 9:12 PM |
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98% of the roofs you see will have either 25 year 3-tab or 30 year dimensional shingles The shingle depends on the location. The DFW area (TX), in my opinion is 98% 20 year for the three-tabs. Some out-of-town roofers (and probably adjusters) quote 25 year 3-tabs, but they are wrong. Check what the local roofing supplies stock and sell. Check the local Home Depot. In 2006 the Home Depot in El Paso carried T-Locks in several colors in their stores, now they say they can't even special order them. |
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