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Posted By jdacree on 13 Nov 2009 09:25 PM
I do have some photos of the "bulge", ... Other than the "bulges" I would have told the homeowner (renter) that there was no damage to the roofing surface and left it there.    ...If I do in fact get the opportunity to go back on the roof I will take my 6" knife and lift up the shingle, and using a "pick hook" probe under the surface to see if I can drag anyhtng out.

Your photo looks like a nail-pop to me.

It is right where the fastener would be.  This tab has been lifted by the migrating fastener, and is not really stuck down properly anyway - I would have lifted it all the way and confirmed the presence of a lifted fastener, usually corroded and pre-dating the storm.

Here's some examples:

Same house, random fasteners "popping" up now and then, like the wide view of your roof

Very corroded, exposed for a long time (before storm).  Usually it's nails, Haag and others describe why, seasonal changes and they will start popping out like a watermelon seed between your fingers.  The old hot-dip nails don't do this, and I believe the higher end air-gun nails can be obtained with a properly textured surface to resist "migrating out". 

Jim wrote Nov 12, 2009:
...there was not enough evidience in the test square(s) to sell a new roof. BUT during the inspection I did notice that all of the shingles, on the eindward side had a bulge in them that ran lengthwise left to right across the whole shingle. This bulge was noticible and hard to the touch so I decided to lift the shingle to see what was under there. I COULD NOT lift the edge of the shingle. All of the shingles on this roof had resealed very tight and well. None of the shingles show any evidience of creasing or cracking.

You say the bulge was "hard to the touch" and that is classic for a Nail-Pop, it acts like there is a rock or something under the tab. It won't budge when you push down on it.

That would also explain why there was no pine-needles sticking out on the sides of the tab (I have seen lifted tabs with wads of junk under them - and it is usually not confined to just the center of tab).

If you think about the typical nailing pattern, and review the wide angle photos of your roof, I see multiple random lifted fasteners (some are slight).

Referring to your comment above, I personally do not believe your photos show a shingle that had "resealed very tight".  A lifting fastener will gradually push up, during heating-cooling, wet-dry cycles, and fight against the sealant.  Sometimes it will actually break the seal (econo-garbage shingles that were barely sealed to begin with) but more often the fastener will just make a big ugly bump that eventually will wear through the upper shingle, resulting in the nail-head seeing daylight.  Roofing nails are fairly short, it's not like it's gonna crow-bar the shingle up very high.

"bulge running the full length of the shingle, not just one spot in the shingle. Some of the photos if you zoom in show what MIGHT be very small crease lines.

Gotcha, and I see what you are talking about.

I think this next one is the same shingle from your inspection

The lines are not in the usual place where shingles "bend back" when the tabs get blown loose (too close to the exposed end of shingle).  Amost looks mechanical, like it was stapped on in the past. 

These really thin cracks can also be caused by the weather, typically known as "crazing" or "thermal cracking" although this roof isn't in too bad of a condition.

And I see the "bumps" you are talking about.  Sometimes those oddly placed lumps are from an uneven nailing surface - are there 2 layers of roofing?

When shingles get "blown back" this is where they usually get damaged.  Here you can see various stages, detached, not yet separated, and partial separation. 

Sometimes you are on a roof, and all you see is a hint of a line where the granules are displaced from "moderate wind" but there is some degree of visible damage.  Wind damage that I am talking about does not usually manifest as a hairline crack.

Posted By BobH on 15 Nov 2009 10:11 PM

I agree with you that generally speaking there would be coverage for the "named peril" of falling object.

If there is no wind or storm present, I don't know how much time the insured would have to cut that limb at the time of the loss. Maybe if he listened to it crack and pop for a few days, but otherwise I think I recommend covering it.

One of the carriers I have worked for asks that the adjuster submit an "Underwriting Review" if something is observed during an inspection that is a hazard, or that the property is not being maintained. Maybe you are there for a pipe leak, but see that the front steps are rotten and the roof is toast.

I have seen claims where prior claims existed for interior dmg from a poorly maintained roof, with Underwriting Reviews submitted, and they STILL haven't fixed the roof.

Getting back to the tree thing, it would have to be pretty gross neglect to deny coverage - but a DOCUMENTED observance of the property prior to the loss with warning to cut that dead tree down, especially after a piece of it hit one part of the house already, would be a "solid" example of what Moco is talking about.

Stupidity is not excluded. If it were we would not have a job.

Posted By Ol' Ghost on 16 Nov 2009 10:50 PM
...Remember at all times, your job is only to sell your employers products. It is not your job to do investigations or analysis or insurance contract interpretations. Just to mention the word Insurance or the word Deductible could and, indeed, should get you in a world you do not want to be in.

Know your role in this world, and stick to it. 

I have never met a roof sales person who walked that line...

In the real world, there is someone on the blue team pushing for a re-roof.  And if I see direct physical dmg from a covered peril, I will agree with them and go the the next step of scope of repair, measurements, etc.

I have been on the roof with lots of different people, and really don't care what they do or say - and typically get along fine with all of them (even if we don't agree).  I don't tell them what to do or say.  I try not to bring baggage, and try to ignore baggage in others.  We just need to make decisions and move it down the road.

Bobh, no there is only one layer of shingles.

I agree with both Bob H and Ol' Ghost. The claims need to be settled and move down the road. 

However there are licensing laws for adjusters and public adjusters for a reason. As a salesperson / contractor it is their job to sell their product, not interpret or advise on the issues of the insurance contract. Attempting to negotiate a claim or provide coverage advice by a contractor, or any unlicensed individual, crosses the fine line into acting as an unlicensed public adjuster. In a broader sense this could be likened to providing legal advice without a law license.

As adjusters we sometimes receive limited assignments with instructions to provide an appraisal of the damages only. Often times this is also received with instructions not to discuss coverage issues with the insured party. To overstep our instructions could potentially open you up to an unwanted liabilty on the claim.

Be careful understand your role and know the limits of your capacity you are acting in. 

Jim,

Actually, I can imagine all those things on that shake house being damaged without the shakes themselve exhibiting any dmg.  Not unthinkable at all.

Now, Bob is right that we shoudl all try to leave our baggage on the ground before inspecting a roof with a salesman alongside, but reality is that its tough for me to do so.  The fact is that 9 out of 10 roof salesmen I meet (and I meet a cursed great number of them) don't really know squadoosh about hail.  They may know how to measure a roof or how to install shingles, but they lack any legitimate knowledge about hail dmg.  A typical roof inspection with a salesman, in my area, involves the salesman chalking every single blemish and anomaly on the roof.  If the tab isn't in impeccable condition, they mark it as hail damaged.  Foot traffic, blisters, tool marks, defects, delamination-- they chalk all of it.  Then they say that all of these different looking blemishes are all the same thing-- hail dmg.

Generally when faced with real knowledge, they just turn argumentative and difficult.

Basically, that's what most adjusters think of you and what most adjusters expect of you when they meet you at the house.  So, maybe you're not really that guy, but most of the roof salesmen I meet are.

Mike

There you go again! Poking that pretty little nose of yours into someone else's business that is NONE of your concern. How many times do we and your Boss need to tell you, 'Just sell the roofing job!'. Don't be Mr Know-It-All counselor & spiritual adviser. Don't do someone else's job!

The customer wants nothing more than a price from you for the products and services your company sells. You are not paid to do analytical surveys. You are not the insurance company or it's assigned representative. Once apon a time in the future, you may be hired to do the carriers bidding, then you can get all investigatory, but not now.

In the meantime, quit wasting time posting here when you should be selling another roofing job!

Ol' Ghost