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Last Post 03/23/2009 1:11 PM by  HuskerCat
Felt paper and shingle life
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stormcrow
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03/19/2009 8:24 PM
    Working here in southern Ontario ( Niagara Falls to Windsor) I have run accross something interesting. Roofers only use 1 strip of felt paper along the bottom of the slope. This is within the building code. Wind damage easily  exposes bare wood. What i have noticed is that the shingles in this area seem to age faster then any place i have been. I have seen many roofs under 15 years that the southern slope shinges are weather cracked completely through.
     
    Roofs at 10 years are clawing and curling. This is with both 220 and 240s and a local favorite 1 tab shingle.  Does the lack of felt paper contribute to the aging? 
     
    I article I found suggested that felt paper protects the shingles for pine resin in the decking, pine resin being harmfull to asphalt shingles. Any thoughts on this?
     
    Even though this area is prime for ice damming, ice guard is very rare.  
    I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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    BobH
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    03/20/2009 12:27 AM
    Posted By peter burch on 19 Mar 2009 08:24 PM
    This is within the building code.   
    Reminds me of a house I saw in Alabama that had been newly constructed, and the only way to get from the downstairs shop/garage to the upstairs living area was a forklift with a pallet on the forks, that took you to a hole in the floor just outside the kitchen upstairs.  I asked about building codes, and he said there was no need for permit or codes to build his own house...
    Yeah I have also read that felt paper acts as a barrier from some component in wood that causes asphalt based shingles to deteriorate faster.  Seems your observation confirms it.   I have never seen shingles right on the deck with no barrier.

    Bob H
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    HuskerCat
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    03/20/2009 4:51 AM
    That's plain dumb & cheap not to put down the felt.  I've only seen it one time too, Bob, but not on a house.  It was on a large brooder house (baby chicken hotel). About 2/3's of the 2500 2-week old chicks died from getting damp & chilled overnight after a spring storm.  Those little creatures need heat to survive, and the overhead heat lamps went out when the power went out.  Many probably died from smothering when they piled up to find body heat.  Had they stayed dry, though, most might have survived long enough to end up in one of the Colonel's buckets.   
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    Wes
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    03/20/2009 5:51 AM
    How is the roof dried in/water proof with no felt?
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    Tim_Johnson
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    03/20/2009 8:46 AM
    I am in a debate, we agreed to let the CADO community settle it, 130 squares, 3 tab, 2 story, 12/12 pitch (church), how do you figure it?;

    Remove 130 sqs felt and shingles,
    replace felt @ 130 sqs
    replace shingles @ 143 sqs
    high charge @ 130 sqs
    steep charge @ 130 sqs

    or;
    Remove 130 sqs felt and shingles
    high charge @130 sqs
    steep charge @ 130 sqs
    replace felt @ 130 sqs
    replace shingles @ 143 sqs
    high charge @ 130 sqs
    steep charge @ 130 sqs

    My buddy says the correct way to do it is to figure the high and steep charge twice, once for removal and once for replacement. I disagree.

    How do you write this up?
    Tim Johnson
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    Jud G.
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    03/20/2009 8:55 AM
    I have a fire claim right now where the roof was compromised and the contractor is trying to convince me that there's no need for felt.  His stance is that the shingles have a better time at adhering to the roof's structure.  Since the shingles do not stick to the felt, but the wood sheathing below, they withstand high winds better. 
     
    I just read a post by a roofer in another website that mentions the negative effect of the pine resin with the shingles, but no scientific evidence supports this.  So far, its sounds like this is just a neat theory.  Naturally, pine resin serves to seal and protect trees from insects, fungus, and harmful elements when they get bruised or scarred, so why wouldn't this aspect help out the shingles?  Perhaps there's some type of reaction between the resin and an ingredient within the shingles?
     
    This article also mentions that the felt serves as a layer to help absorb the condensation away from the surface of the wood sheathing built up from a hot attic.  The felt then transfers the moisture away from the roof to the air through the seams of the shingles on top.  This makes sense, since felt is not completely watertight.  Conversely, it does shed water until the actual shingles are installed.
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    Medulus
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    03/20/2009 10:58 AM
    The only time I saw any significant number of comp roofs put together without felt was Atlanta 1998. Believe me, the shingles did not resist high winds because the comp was laid directly onto the roof decking. Quite the opposite was true. Additionally, very few building codes will allow the elimination of felt.
    As for pine resin damaging asphalt shingle:  Pine soap and pine cleaners are used to cut heavy grease and oil.  Basically, asphalt is an oil based product.  It makes sense.

    As for your questions, Tim, a single steep and/or high charge is proper, but tell your friend it was a nice try.  He might actually sneak it past some examiners who don't look at the details or know how to actually read an estimate.  Hope it doesn't hit my desk.
    Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

    "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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    ChuckDeaton
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    03/20/2009 11:12 AM
    discussion regarding moisture barriers rages, dry hot geographical areas moisture have different moisture flows than cold wet geographical areas. The presence of HVA/C has an effect.

    The flow of moisture always goes from wetter to dryer.

    Attics can be predominately hot and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet or cold and dry.

    Permeability of the moisture barrier/membrane/felt/builder board is also variable.

    In some areas a moisture barrier is required by code and in other areas it is not.

    I have been on composition roofs that do not have a membrane under composition shingles, generally this was newer, engineered construction.

    Generally speaking this varies with the composition of the decking/sheathing i.e. plywood, t & g, OSB, the climate and the use of central heat and air.

    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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    BobH
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    03/20/2009 5:21 PM
    Posted By Tim_Johnson on 20 Mar 2009 
    I am in a debate, we agreed to let the CADO community settle it, 130 squares, 3 tab, 2 story, 12/12 pitch (church), how do you figure it?;

    ...My buddy says the correct way to do it is to figure the high and steep charge twice, once for removal and once for replacement. I disagree.

    How do you write this up?
    At the risk of upsetting the 20% that don't use Xactimate, I will assume you are one of the 80% that does use it.
    Like most repair items in Xactimate, you can remove the thing (-) or put it back (+) or Remove and Replace (&)
     
    Focusing on the Steep fee, in my area here are the prices:
    (-) 11.02   remove only, maybe you don't want to allow waste factor on this aspect of steep fee
    (+) 25.91   replace only, maybe the house burned and you are just putting back
    (&) 36.93   R&R if you want to keep it simple.  Most people allow R&R steep, as default setting is "&" for this item.
     
    When you go to print the estimate, or "preview" it, the wording of the repair item will change depending on how the adjuster selected the activity for (-) remove, it will say "Remove Additional Charge for steep roof".  If the default (&) was selected, the repair item will be "R&R Additional charge for steep roof".  If you choose (+) it will just say "Additional Charge for steep roof".
     
    If your buddy says to "figure the high and steep charge twice", he better take the time to change the default R&R activity code (&) to "Remove" (-) the actual size of roof.  And the 2nd entry needs to be (+) and could include waste factor.  (that is the only reason to enter it twice, and is what I do personally, allowing waste on the "put back" steep or high charge).  

    If he "blows and goes" and leaves the default "R&R" twice, then he is double dipping.
     
    Like most things in Xm8, you can get a detailed description for the repair item and here's this one:

    Includes: Additional charge for lost labor productivity on a steep roof (7/12 to 9/12 slope), due to working with roof jacks, additional toe board installation, and additional safety precautions.

    Note: If steep roof is also 2 stories or higher, see RFGHIGH.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    And typical to Xm8, they suggest other possible items or things they are not including in this one (steep will remind you to consider "high" if 2 stories, shower tile may remind you that the pan membrane would need to be added, etc.)  For those who notice that this description only mentions 7/12 to 9/12 slope, rest assured there are 2 other items in the database for steeper slopes (commonly referred to as "Pucker City" and "Widow-maker")
    Bob H
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    HuskerCat
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    03/20/2009 11:12 PM
    Even moderately high winds will often blow patches of shingles or shingle tabs off...because they are smaller individual units and have exposed edges to catch the wind.  The underlying felt, however, is a more continous membrane more resistant to blowing off...and provides the water shedding ability of the roof.   The cost of installing felt is so insignificant, I can't fathom why anyone would leave it off.  It's just an open-house invitation for interior water damage.
     
    Many states (or cities with inspectors that enforce code) in the mid & upper midwest require not only felt be installed on the entire roof, but also ice/water shield in the valleys plus the roof perimeters 2-4' beyond the exterior elevation including any soffit overhang.
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    okclarryd
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    03/21/2009 8:23 PM
    Me thinks the roofing industry has "bottom-feeders" too.

    The only reason to not use felt is MONEY.
    Larry D Hardin
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    Joeblack
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    03/21/2009 11:01 PM
     
     
    If your buddy says to "figure the high and steep charge twice", he better take the time to change the default R&R activity code (&) to "Remove" (-) the actual size of roof.  And the 2nd entry needs to be (+) and could include waste factor.  (that is the only reason to enter it twice, and is what I do personally, allowing waste on the "put back" steep or high charge).  


    I agree with the way Bob describes above, and that seems to be the way most carriers prefer. However, I have seen many quotes from roofers, and most quotes from roofers are based on an R&R price for the amount of shingles installed, including waste. Roofers don't  reduce their price because they are removing less shingles than they are installing. Its the same with carpet installers, they charge a R&R price based on the amount of carpet they are installing. There is no reduction in charge because they are removing less carpet than they are installing.
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    HuskerCat
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    03/23/2009 1:11 PM
    Carpet people actually come out way ahead if they do the sq ft deal.
     
    Take a room that's 12x10 compared to a room that's 12x30, and how much extra labor do you really have?  Not much, just a few extra knee kicks to stretch & attach the perimeters. 
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