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Last Post 12/01/2009 10:33 PM by  RandyC
Unsealed Shingles
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BobH
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11/15/2009 10:20 PM
Posted By jdacree on 13 Nov 2009 09:25 PM
I do have some photos of the "bulge", ... Other than the "bulges" I would have told the homeowner (renter) that there was no damage to the roofing surface and left it there.    ...If I do in fact get the opportunity to go back on the roof I will take my 6" knife and lift up the shingle, and using a "pick hook" probe under the surface to see if I can drag anyhtng out.

Your photo looks like a nail-pop to me.

It is right where the fastener would be.  This tab has been lifted by the migrating fastener, and is not really stuck down properly anyway - I would have lifted it all the way and confirmed the presence of a lifted fastener, usually corroded and pre-dating the storm.

Here's some examples:

Bob H
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BobH
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11/15/2009 10:40 PM

Same house, random fasteners "popping" up now and then, like the wide view of your roof

Very corroded, exposed for a long time (before storm).  Usually it's nails, Haag and others describe why, seasonal changes and they will start popping out like a watermelon seed between your fingers.  The old hot-dip nails don't do this, and I believe the higher end air-gun nails can be obtained with a properly textured surface to resist "migrating out". 

Bob H
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BobH
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11/15/2009 10:50 PM
Jim wrote Nov 12, 2009:
...there was not enough evidience in the test square(s) to sell a new roof. BUT during the inspection I did notice that all of the shingles, on the eindward side had a bulge in them that ran lengthwise left to right across the whole shingle. This bulge was noticible and hard to the touch so I decided to lift the shingle to see what was under there. I COULD NOT lift the edge of the shingle. All of the shingles on this roof had resealed very tight and well. None of the shingles show any evidience of creasing or cracking.

You say the bulge was "hard to the touch" and that is classic for a Nail-Pop, it acts like there is a rock or something under the tab. It won't budge when you push down on it.

That would also explain why there was no pine-needles sticking out on the sides of the tab (I have seen lifted tabs with wads of junk under them - and it is usually not confined to just the center of tab).

If you think about the typical nailing pattern, and review the wide angle photos of your roof, I see multiple random lifted fasteners (some are slight).

Referring to your comment above, I personally do not believe your photos show a shingle that had "resealed very tight".  A lifting fastener will gradually push up, during heating-cooling, wet-dry cycles, and fight against the sealant.  Sometimes it will actually break the seal (econo-garbage shingles that were barely sealed to begin with) but more often the fastener will just make a big ugly bump that eventually will wear through the upper shingle, resulting in the nail-head seeing daylight.  Roofing nails are fairly short, it's not like it's gonna crow-bar the shingle up very high.

Bob H
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Tim_Johnson
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11/16/2009 11:13 AM
Question,

I was reading a major carrier's property handling guidelines last night. This was from their HO to their field adjusters. Something I have never seen addressed was their directive to use #15 felt on all slopes 8/12 and less and use #30 felt on 8/12 and up. Why would that be?
Tim Johnson
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claims_ray
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11/16/2009 12:55 PM
The weight of the felt helps with the safety of the roofers during installation or prevents tearing during installation. I have found no other answer for the increase.
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jdacree
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11/16/2009 9:54 PM
BobH, I agree that the photo you are using for a reference is a nail pop, and I do have a photo of that one showing the nail. The balance of the photos submitted show a "bulge running the full length of the shingle, not just one spot in the shingle. Some of the photos if you zoom in show what MIGHT be very small crease lines. I have yet to get a call back from the person contacted, so I cannot get back on the roof at this time. Should I gat the chance to get back on the roof, I am going to lift one of those shingles to see what is under it.

To all, if in fact there is debris trapped, what is the disposition? Repair, replace, not covered? That was the question in the second place.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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Ol' Ghost
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11/16/2009 10:50 PM
Were I you, I would be hesitant to start destructive testing procedures just to satisfy your curiosity as to what is under the shingle. You would be liable for damages that could extend to the entire roof.

Remember at all times, your job is only to sell your employers products. It is not your job to do investigations or analysis or insurance contract interpretations. Just to mention the word Insurance or the word Deductible could and, indeed, should get you in a world you do not want to be in.

Know your role in this world, and stick to it.

Ol' Ghost
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BobH
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11/16/2009 11:59 PM
"bulge running the full length of the shingle, not just one spot in the shingle. Some of the photos if you zoom in show what MIGHT be very small crease lines.

Gotcha, and I see what you are talking about.

 

I think this next one is the same shingle from your inspection

The lines are not in the usual place where shingles "bend back" when the tabs get blown loose (too close to the exposed end of shingle).  Amost looks mechanical, like it was stapped on in the past. 

These really thin cracks can also be caused by the weather, typically known as "crazing" or "thermal cracking" although this roof isn't in too bad of a condition.

And I see the "bumps" you are talking about.  Sometimes those oddly placed lumps are from an uneven nailing surface - are there 2 layers of roofing?

When shingles get "blown back" this is where they usually get damaged.  Here you can see various stages, detached, not yet separated, and partial separation. 

Sometimes you are on a roof, and all you see is a hint of a line where the granules are displaced from "moderate wind" but there is some degree of visible damage.  Wind damage that I am talking about does not usually manifest as a hairline crack.

Bob H
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FloridaBoy
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11/17/2009 8:15 AM
Posted By BobH on 15 Nov 2009 10:11 PM

I agree with you that generally speaking there would be coverage for the "named peril" of falling object.

If there is no wind or storm present, I don't know how much time the insured would have to cut that limb at the time of the loss. Maybe if he listened to it crack and pop for a few days, but otherwise I think I recommend covering it.

One of the carriers I have worked for asks that the adjuster submit an "Underwriting Review" if something is observed during an inspection that is a hazard, or that the property is not being maintained. Maybe you are there for a pipe leak, but see that the front steps are rotten and the roof is toast.

I have seen claims where prior claims existed for interior dmg from a poorly maintained roof, with Underwriting Reviews submitted, and they STILL haven't fixed the roof.

Getting back to the tree thing, it would have to be pretty gross neglect to deny coverage - but a DOCUMENTED observance of the property prior to the loss with warning to cut that dead tree down, especially after a piece of it hit one part of the house already, would be a "solid" example of what Moco is talking about.

Stupidity is not excluded. If it were we would not have a job.



 

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jdacree
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11/17/2009 10:05 PM
Bobh, no there is only one layer of shingles.

Ol Ghost the thought that I am getting is that as a "roofing salesman" I am at the mercy of the adjuster's decision, with no comment on my part. If that is what you are meaning I am quite suprised. Be it a homeowner, salesman, or adjuster it is imperative to determine the nature of the damage, the cause of the damage, and the resolution, if possible, of the cause so that the damage will not happen again.

In your comment a person in my capacity should not mention, except in the darkest of night and down a deep well, any insurance term?? If that be the case how would I, as the salesman, get the customer (named insured) to convey to me the particulars of his policy that are going to pay for a portion of the repair? A regular question in my field of endavor is what is your deductible, and horrors, is this an ACV or RCV policy? This question is in response to the customer (named insured) asking me, the salesman "how much is this going to cost me"? I cannot defer that question back to the adjuster, can I??

I understand your reluctance for a "roofing salesman" to get to privey with the named insured. A great fear exists in the hearts of the adjusters, those that take pride in cutting the cost of claims paid out, that someone will educated the insured.

I am on a cedar shake job at this time. The named insured, asked me without my bidding, to come and look at her 2 story roof. She had filed a claim, and the carrier had paid for all of the gutter to be replaced 1st story only, across the front of the house The carrier had paid to replace the furnace vent cap. the carrier had paid to repaint doors and trim on the first story front of the house, and the carrier had paid to completly refinish the covered deck on the BACK of the house, which was under a cedar shake covered patio. BUT the carrier had denied that there was any damage to the roof material.

Now I know from my reading on this site that you and most of the other adjusters, whom I respect, would NEVER pay the type of damages listed above and 100% deny any damage to the roof. Common sense alone tells anyone that damage severe enough to warrant a refinish of a covered deck, has to include some roof damage.

Ol Ghost, as much as I hate to disagree with you, I feel that I have to in the extent that my current position does require some investigation, and some interpertation of the coverage availiable to my customer (the named insured). I will agree that it is not my job to dictate to the isured what his coverages are, nor to belittle the adjuster that had been on the job prior to me. As has been stated before, I am up here to learn. My education can not be complete without an understanding of all aspects of the resolution of the damage due to an event. I sincerely hope to begin a career as an independent adjuster, although the need for adjusters, experienced or not has been very scarce lately.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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BobH
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11/17/2009 10:49 PM
Posted By Ol' Ghost on 16 Nov 2009 10:50 PM
...Remember at all times, your job is only to sell your employers products. It is not your job to do investigations or analysis or insurance contract interpretations. Just to mention the word Insurance or the word Deductible could and, indeed, should get you in a world you do not want to be in.

Know your role in this world, and stick to it. 

I have never met a roof sales person who walked that line...

In the real world, there is someone on the blue team pushing for a re-roof.  And if I see direct physical dmg from a covered peril, I will agree with them and go the the next step of scope of repair, measurements, etc.

I have been on the roof with lots of different people, and really don't care what they do or say - and typically get along fine with all of them (even if we don't agree).  I don't tell them what to do or say.  I try not to bring baggage, and try to ignore baggage in others.  We just need to make decisions and move it down the road.

Bobh, no there is only one layer of shingles.
OK.  If you ever get back there and figure out if there is debris trapped under there, let us know.  Sometimes it can be REALLY hard to find a hidden layer of roofing (the rake edge can be cut back about a foot, new felt put over the old roof with drip edge covering the old shingles).  It looks like some kind of uneven surface under the shingles - but it's hard to say for sure from photos.

Bob H
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Ol' Ghost
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11/18/2009 9:04 AM
Jim, to pry into the, from your standpoint, potential customers private financial affairs and dealings with their Insurance carrier is flat out none of your business. You are there simply to sell your employers products and services with a price determined by your employer. It is solely up to the potential customer to pay your price with their personal check or other negotiable funds. You are called out by the potential customer to give a price for repairs to damages, in this case the roofing and associated componets that your employer has chosen to sell. There is a limit to what you can sell. To dilly-dally around playing a role that is outside your sales domain is not what you were hired to do. Among other things it is a waste of time when you should be going on to the next house to give them a price for repairs of the things that person is specifying.

When and if you quit being a contractor and pay your dues to become an adjuster, then you can delve into what we do. Till then, sell more roofing jobs.

Ol' Ghost
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steve sanders
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11/18/2009 10:48 AM

I agree with both Bob H and Ol' Ghost. The claims need to be settled and move down the road. 

However there are licensing laws for adjusters and public adjusters for a reason. As a salesperson / contractor it is their job to sell their product, not interpret or advise on the issues of the insurance contract. Attempting to negotiate a claim or provide coverage advice by a contractor, or any unlicensed individual, crosses the fine line into acting as an unlicensed public adjuster. In a broader sense this could be likened to providing legal advice without a law license.

As adjusters we sometimes receive limited assignments with instructions to provide an appraisal of the damages only. Often times this is also received with instructions not to discuss coverage issues with the insured party. To overstep our instructions could potentially open you up to an unwanted liabilty on the claim.

Be careful understand your role and know the limits of your capacity you are acting in. 

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MIKE C
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11/19/2009 6:41 PM

Jim,

 

Actually, I can imagine all those things on that shake house being damaged without the shakes themselve exhibiting any dmg.  Not unthinkable at all.

Now, Bob is right that we shoudl all try to leave our baggage on the ground before inspecting a roof with a salesman alongside, but reality is that its tough for me to do so.  The fact is that 9 out of 10 roof salesmen I meet (and I meet a cursed great number of them) don't really know squadoosh about hail.  They may know how to measure a roof or how to install shingles, but they lack any legitimate knowledge about hail dmg.  A typical roof inspection with a salesman, in my area, involves the salesman chalking every single blemish and anomaly on the roof.  If the tab isn't in impeccable condition, they mark it as hail damaged.  Foot traffic, blisters, tool marks, defects, delamination-- they chalk all of it.  Then they say that all of these different looking blemishes are all the same thing-- hail dmg.

Generally when faced with real knowledge, they just turn argumentative and difficult.

Basically, that's what most adjusters think of you and what most adjusters expect of you when they meet you at the house.  So, maybe you're not really that guy, but most of the roof salesmen I meet are.

Mike

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okclarryd
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11/20/2009 8:37 PM
I bet you guys didn't realize that 98% of the roofers give the rest a bad name............................
Larry D Hardin
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jdacree
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11/20/2009 11:11 PM
Thanks Larry and Mike C for at least a marginal chace of not going to HELL because I sell roofs. The basic questionthat started this thread was what the experienced hands would do with a specific thing on a roof that I had not seen before. This question degenerated into a discussion on what were the responsibilities of the parties involved in a claim. I feel fortunate tto be able to post on this site, and occosanially ask a question llike this one, that gets people scratching thier heads.

For general information, I was on a cedar shake roof today, that still has 4" of snow and 1" of ice below that in the shaded areas, that is such bad shape due to age and lack of regular maintenance that I am going to tell the homeowner that I feel that there is not a chance in hades of getting a claim on the roof. This is despite the fact that the vents have dents 3" in diameter, guttering is actually sheared through one edge, and the superduper fiberglass storage shed in the backyard is destroyed.

Should the HOMEOWNER ignore my comment (advise) and decide to try for a new roof, along with hail damage to other structures that can be documented, I will of course put a price on the replacement of the roof with the full expectation that the knowledgeble adjuster will deny the roof replacement due to lack of proper maintenance.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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Ol' Ghost
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11/20/2009 11:27 PM

There you go again! Poking that pretty little nose of yours into someone else's business that is NONE of your concern. How many times do we and your Boss need to tell you, 'Just sell the roofing job!'. Don't be Mr Know-It-All counselor & spiritual adviser. Don't do someone else's job!

The customer wants nothing more than a price from you for the products and services your company sells. You are not paid to do analytical surveys. You are not the insurance company or it's assigned representative. Once apon a time in the future, you may be hired to do the carriers bidding, then you can get all investigatory, but not now.

In the meantime, quit wasting time posting here when you should be selling another roofing job!

Ol' Ghost

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okclarryd
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11/21/2009 4:12 PM
Lighten up, Sport.
Larry D Hardin
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Ol' Ghost
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11/21/2009 4:19 PM
Yeah, Okay.
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MIKE C
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11/21/2009 5:55 PM
Ol Ghost, I wish you were right that the homeowner only wants the roofer to give them a price on the roof. The unfortunate reality is that the typical homeowner, for reasons I can't even fathom, seems to think that roof salesmen are some kind of geniuses who can manipulate adjusters and carriers into doing anything.

Where I am, the sad truth is that the homeowner wants the roofer to help them get a free roof, no matter what it takes. They want the roofer to act as an unlicensed PA.

My experience yesterday is pretty much par for the course in central Indiana. 3 weeks ago this saleswoman missed an appointment with me and I inspected without her and denied the hail claim. We agreed to a reinspection for yesterday. She was 40 minutes late and I spent that time chatting with the insured.

So, this lady showed up and went up on the roof. She proceeded to run all over this roof in a totally unorderly fashion. Going from place to place pointing at blemishes. Every time I attempted to say something or answer her rhetorical question, she'd interrupt me. Finally, I asked her if she planned to give me a chance to speak to any of the things she had said or pointed to. I told her it was hard for me to reconcile the lack of any collateral dmg with the 1" to 1.5" blemishes she was showing me. I told her stones large enough to cause those blemishes would surely have caused dmg to the gutters, downs, vents.

She then told me "Haag says the shingles are more susceptible to dmg than the metals." I responded "I'm Haag certified, so I'm very familiar with their standards."

Then, NO JOKE, she looked me in the eye and said "You're an @sshole" and then turned and walked back to the ladder. It took her less than 5 minutes at her first meeting with me to get to that point. Unreal.

Once on the ground she told the insured I was a jerk, a liar and determined to deny the claim no matter what. Of course, the insd bought that hook, line and sinker. Suddenly the man who had spent 40 minutes making small talk with me now hated me and called me a crook.

This is the central Indiana roofing salesman/saleswoman.
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