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Last Post 10/29/2007 6:54 PM by  Ray Hall
Depreciation of roof Labor on ACV policy
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sbeau4014
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10/26/2007 9:11 AM
Actually Ray, you can get "R/C" for autos to a certain degree these days, and by that I mean new for old. I know that some carriers do it for autos if it is less then X #'s of years in age. On my motorhome I have a policy that if there is a total loss to it within 5 years of the model year, they will replace it with a new current model year of the same make and model. I got it in that on a motorhome that is 4-5 years old that is totalled out, it can be a difference of $100k or more. Sorry, I went a little off topic here.
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BobH
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10/26/2007 10:33 AM
Wow. Just goes to show you have to look at the policy and endorsements, or at least walk in with your eyes open on every claim.

There is so much variety out there, and "morphing" policies that have avoided exposure to mold and so on - with other policies and endorsements that offer greater benefits (for a price).

I will be the first to say that I have "broken the news" to an insured that something isn't likely to be covered, or is ACV only, then find the policy is more generous than most. One example is fencing, I had a claim where fencing was at RCV - and after decades of "ACV only" on fencing I felt like I had seen an alien coming out of a UFO.
Bob H
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Todd_Summers
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10/26/2007 8:59 PM

The last "alien" I had was discovering that flooding was covered on manufactured home policies in Florida. Go figure.

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Ray Hall
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10/26/2007 9:47 PM

 Flood Is covered in Texas and most other states under the  auto forms but not the fire forms.

When working commercial loss the  The CP 10 65 10 00 makes an adjusters eys light up as it cover "flood" by the broad definitions and also covers" surface waters". Which the NFIP policy does not( has to be two properties)

Just had a loss this week under the CP 10,30 and vehicle damage to "shrubs" are not part of the  e." Outdoor Property" {extensions}

(The older you get the less you are inclined to memorize coverage). Before each loss I get on commercial coverage on the fire forms or the inland marine forms. I read all the coverage before I inspect the loss

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RandyC
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10/29/2007 9:13 AM
One of the judges in the Redcorn vs. State Farm decision dissented from the view that labor should be depreciated on roofing. Note that at the end of his statement he affirms "indemnity" as the basis and foundation of all insurance law:

"?6 In making this determination, I reject the majority's characterization of Redcorn's roof as a single product. A roof, unlike a preassembled consumer good, is not an integrated product. Redcorn cannot go the lumber yard or the retail store and buy a roof. A roof does not exist until the shingles are transported to the site and installed on top of the house. A roof is not a unified product but a combination of a product (shingles) and a service (labor to install the shingles).
?7 The shingles are of course logically depreciable. As they age, they certainly lose value due to wear and tear. They typically have a useful life of twenty years. It makes sense, then, that sixteen-year-old shingles have lost sixteen/twentieths, or eighty percent, of their value over time.
?8 Labor, on the other hand, is not logically depreciable. Does labor lose value due to wear and tear? Does labor lose value over time? What is the typical depreciable life of labor? Is there a statistical table that delineates how labor loses value over time? I think the logical answers are no, no, it is not depreciable, and no. The very idea of depreciating the value of labor is illogical. The image that comes to me is that of a very old roofer with debilitating arthritis who can barely climb a ladder or hammer a nail. The value of his labor, I suppose, has depreciated over time.4?9 It is important to keep in mind that "ndemnity is the basis and foundation of all insurance law." Rochester American Ins. Co., "
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Ray Hall
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10/29/2007 3:49 PM

These type of topics are what the old timers have been doing since I started. Since the post war days of the 40's and 50,s when the "risk of loss" coverage started and many many properties were "under insured to value and most certainly under insured to replacement cost. The underwriters understood the reasoning for the "condition" and realized to generate more income for the paper contract (policy) the agents could use the claim deparments as a sales tool. How, enforce the  co insurance with their insureds on small losses and by applying deductibles on all losses large and small.

The biggest boon to the property insurance industry was the introduction of the "package policy" of 1958 in homeowners and tenants, which became the present Homeowners predominate coverage in about 1960. The policy required that coverage A, Building be insured to 80% of replacement cost of rebuilding the dwelling or the policy could not be purchased. This resulted in fire insurance going from 25, 35 and 50% of a foreseeable loss to 100%. The other perils had to be equal to the fire. The additional losses to outdoor property was also a selling tool.This was really the birth of RCC coverage as we know it today.

The duties of an adjuster having to computate the unearned premium resulting in a pro rata return, the reinstatment of the face amount of the policy or the reduction of the face amount almost never has to addressed in the 21st century. This may arrise in the California fires and you folks should be aware of this provision. Most of this is done by the carriers agent today, but it will come up. The adjusters working these losses will get several years excellant experience in crammed into one or two years.

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Ray Hall
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10/29/2007 6:54 PM

Reguarding an HO policy on non existant property destroyed by fire. I think the best way to explain would have the insured return the policy for a full refund of all non earned premium on a pro rata basis. Also replace with a Renters Policy with the same carrier at a differant address. This should close all the gaps and provide liability at the lot while the future use is being sorted out.

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