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Last Post 09/12/2009 7:30 PM by dnjsdad

What is this roof?

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Tom Toll
Moderator & Life Member

Senior Member
Posts:1865

09/11/2009 8:52 AM
If it is copper, it will shine up with a little copper polish. It is easy to do and will tell you immediately whether it is copper or simulated metal copper. The patina occurs within two to four years of application of copper. Usually there is a need to use solder in areas, particularily at flashing points. Check to see if any solder was used and if so, it is copper. I would not recommend payment until it is established that it is indeed a copper product. Copper runs about $1,500.00 a square, so your looking at a very expensive roof there. Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.

sbeau4014
Founding Member
Member

Member
Posts:427

09/11/2009 9:32 AM
Let me see if I have this straight, the roof/house is 2-3 years old, it was a spec home and is owned by a GC. And the insured (GC) has it listed with a galvanized aluminum roof. I do not believe a copper roof would oxidize to that extent in that amount of time. If it can be shown that he is the GC that built the house, and you have requested the original invoicing for the roof and been refused it could be shown that the insured has not cooperated fully as is required by the policy. Is the house occupied by the insured? I am assuming that the insured was the one that provided you with the replacement estimate for over $146k or so? Was it mailed or faxed to you and if so, it the method documented? If this is all the case, and you have told the insured that your investigation has shown it to be a galvanized aluminum roof, you need to make sure the insured is aware of your findings. If he still maintains it is a copper roof, you need to make sure you have your expert (roof consultant or engineer-not just a roofer that sells roofs) in line with their inspection and evaluation completed, and then get the insured noticed for an EUO. Make sure all state time guidelines are complied with where you are (ie in the case of a disputed claim, the undisputed amount is paid up front and the insured is notified in writing of what the disputed items are). A decision would have to be made at that point asto whether you would go ahead and pay the ACV of the aluminum roof at this time, depending on the what jurisdiction you are in and how fraud statutes read. When the insured is noticed for the EUO, require them to bring the original invoice for the roof, all information that he might have between the builder/roofer if he was the GC that built it, etc or all of his original purchase information on the house such as prior listing, inspection reports, real estate listing, etc. Also request he provide all estimates he has obtained for the replacement of the roof and all information that he has on the current listing of the house as it appears it is currently up for sale. If it gets to this point, there is a ton of information that needs to be covered while he is under oath, and covering all the paperwork under oath will tie down a lot of stuff. If he still maintains it is copper, and your investigation shows it is aluminum and you can prove it, you would at that point have a strong case of fraud to pursue. In some jurisdictions, any fraud in the presentation of a claim not only excludes that amount of the claim, but voids the entire policy to where the insured would collect nothing, not even the valus of an aluminum roof. Some jurisdictions, you would owe for the value of the aluminum roof even it the insured did try to commit the fraud for a copper replacement.

Leland

Advanced Member
Posts:741

09/11/2009 10:24 AM
very well written post by sbeau. another area of concern is the possible red flags here. Why is the house for sale? You said it was a spec house, meaning the roofer built it or improved it to flip it. Now that real estate is down, is the roofer owing more on the house than it is worth? Does he need the money for a copper roof to make up the shortfall he will have on selling the house? Is he months and months behind on the mortgage? Does the damage look like it was really from hail or could it be man made, done on purpose? If your going to do an EUO you might want to consider some of these areas of questioning. I adjusted a claim that was denied for fraud because the insured presented a letter purportedly from the bank saying that the bank was OK with not having their name on the settlement check. Only problem the name of the bank employee was spelled wrong. The claim was one day from being paid and the insured would have gotten a joint check with the banks name and ultimately gotten his money if he hadn't presented the phony letter. He got zero. California.

linhoch

Guest
Posts:33

09/11/2009 2:30 PM
Just to open another can of worms: I did not see damage to the standing seams. Some companies in some states would call this damage cosmetic, i.e., it is not pretty when you are standing on it, but the hail did not shorten the life span of the roof. It will not leak now or ever because of some minor dents, which is another determination for a roof consultant.

lasertape

Guest
Posts:12

09/11/2009 7:11 PM
As I understand it is also easier to prove mail fraud than insurance fraud, have the insured respond in writing by sending a notarized proof of loss (stating that it is copper and the replacement cost he is claiming) via certified mail to the carrier.

Ray Hall

Senior Member
Posts:2443

09/11/2009 9:50 PM
This whole claim is out of control. The ajuster SHOULD be able to make this determination with simple products in his auto that cost less than $25.00. If an adjuster can not determine what type of metal roof is involved on this loss he/she needs several more years dealing with some real dishonest insureds. This insured is just a wantabee.

Tim_Johnson
Member

Member
Posts:243

09/11/2009 9:54 PM
Amen, Ray. Nobody paints a copper roof, a copper roof on a commercial bldg or a private dwelling is left copper, so they can say "hey look how much money I have" Tim Johnson

mac3821

Guest
Posts:46

09/11/2009 10:19 PM
If the Real Estate Listing you are talking about is from the actual agent then that really isn't going to hold much water. I have a small Real Estate business too and I can honestly say that very few Realtors actually know what they are looking at when it comes to construction products and practices. They may be correct but there is an equal chance they are not. Stu MacDiarmid

sbeau4014
Founding Member
Member

Member
Posts:427

09/12/2009 10:16 AM
Stu, if the real estate agent listed it as a aluminum roof and it is actually copper, any prudent homeowner would point out the error, especially a prudent homeowner who happens to be a GC. We are talking an item that would potentially increas the value of the house by over 100K. I am wondering what he is selling the house for, amount of sq footage to it, cost per sq ft, etc. Is this house in an area of fancy custom built properties? I doubt anyone would put a $146k copper roof on a house that has a value of under 500k or in a neighborhood of houses in that range. It is bad business sense as they would never be able to sell the house for the increased valus that the roof would add to it. Potentially lots of red flags flying here.

Tom Toll
Moderator & Life Member

Senior Member
Posts:1865

09/12/2009 10:33 AM
Stu, you have asked for and gotten a lot of good information from a bunch of adjusters that know what they say. I would suggest you read all, make your recommendations based on your research and findings, and go on down the road. Off hand, I would say that it is not a copper roof, and I agree that if the standing seams are not damaged, you may have just had cosmetic damage. One thing to look for, if you can, is whether the clips are stainless steel or galvanized. Stainless steel is required on copper application. Galvanized is a dissimilar metal and will damage the copper. There will also be a a slip sheet or rosin paper on the top of the decking. Standard felt is not used as a top surface. Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.

Ray Hall

Senior Member
Posts:2443

09/12/2009 10:40 AM
I will take up for the realtors on a published listing the National Assoc of Realtors. Sellers disclosure. Appraisal district valuation. Most good realtors check the appraisal district for the valuation before listing. This house may be listed with the 2nd realtor who tokk the listing from this insured when the dirst contract fell out; when the roof was found to be painted steel insted of copper. Jason investigate and get this claim under control. Ask for help. by phone. You know my number.

ChuckDeaton
Life Member

Senior Member
Posts:1110

09/12/2009 11:58 AM
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ray48

Guest
Posts:10

09/12/2009 5:07 PM
Just for comparision here are three photos of what a 4 year old copper roof looks like in central AL. Look at photo 2 and you will see what Tom was talking about. Copper is a soft metal, note the appearance of the hits. The dents have a different appearance copper than thy do in metal. The hail size here was about marble size. Hope this visual comparision helps. Sam Ray

dnjsdad

Member
Posts:77

09/12/2009 7:30 PM
Thanks again, to all who have replied. The roof is galvalume per the GC's own website not a realtors, he was even nice enough to list the roofing contractors name and number. I will keep you informed of the carriers decision on how they want this handled. I never thought that the roof was copper, but when I recieved the insureds estimate I started second guessing myself. Thanks again, Dnjsdad

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