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Which estimating programs are you using. MSB tear off includes that of felt. Replacment does not include felt and must be added. I am not sure about exactimate. MSB painting does not include masking and tape.

Why pay for TO the felt. It is just fine, with a few more holes, but it is never supposed to get wet anyway. Now if I was looking at the photos of the adjuster making a second trip back out I would. I still remember when they trusted us to climb the roof, but did not ask for the proof. Oh Im sorry thats when we were trustworthy.

Well I may be mistaken. I just checked the description for myself. What it says is the paint line item includes the use of brushes and edgers to finish around door/window trims, a/c vents etc.. I don't know if this implies masking is not neccessary or it is. Now I am confused.

I got a little bit lost here, with Co A & Estimating A & Estimating B...but Co A is not the carrier.   Do I understand correctly that Estimating A & B are 2 different estimating programs and Co A is your vendor who is questioning the estimate based on whether the estimate is correct based on whether it is program A or B???   This took me awhile to sort out asking what I think is the question, and still don't know if it is the right question nor whether it will lead to any answer.     

This is what most homes look like during the R&R stage. The tool used to remove shingles is like a pitchfork, and not very kind to the felt.

Then there is the "chicken-picking" to remove any stray fasteners before applying new materials.  Any replacement of rotting sheathing is NOT part of the claim, but I cannot imagine doing a re-roof without replacing the felt. 

I am the first one to argue with a roofer if the quantity is off, or the unit price is scalping.  But I choose my battles, and would not make an issue of felt.  It's kind of like a house with multiple layers.  If the roof has direct physical damage from a covered peril, it is going to come off to the deck.

Not all houses need drip edge (if there wasn't any), and of course not all homes have valleys, dormers, etc.  But any asphalt roof will have felt, and it's just part of the job.  It is a standard trade practice.  The roof in this photo was not the subject of an insurance claim at the time they tore it off - this was just standard procedure.

That is my understanding as well.

This was an elderly couple, with the husband getting chemo, they were focused on other things when this storm hit.  They paid to have the roof replaced without thinking about insurance.  Neighbors got their roofs replaced by insurance, later the elderly couple realizes they should have called it in.  The roofer took photos of all projects, and had before-after photos.  Lot's of missing shingles from wind, so the carrier paid the claim.  But at the time this photo was taken, the relationship was strictly customer to roofer, and the customer paid the roofer in full before the claim was reported.  In other words, the roofer was just doing their standard trade practice and not taking advantage of a claim (or the customer in my opinion).

Most of the R&R comp roofs over a plywood or hard board deck in the SW never include felt. The roofers in this area do not tear off the felt and if they do they may replace a sq yard of felt {cost of doing business}. I always follow my principals guide lines (unless its unlawful) and I have never been ask to adjust a loss in 50 years by breaking a law. In Texas an Independant Adjuster feels the principal is the person that hired them and pays the service bill.

My old eye on the photo shown, could this be a redeck, not a tear off.?

We have many people on this site who sell roofs when they are not adjusting. Lets talk about  TX, LA, OK, AK. How many carriers allow felt on a R &R job? How many allow plumbing jacks, New metal edge ever job ?

Xactimate gives you a choice, you can R&R including felt, or not.

As Jim Gary said, I will often copy the description of what is included in a repair item and paste a note so there is no question.  I add so many notes to my estimate it is pretty clear what we are calling out to be done - rarely is there a question of what scope of repair is allowed for.

The image above is just one piece of the roofing choices, they have all the choices for laminated (architectural) and so forth.  I know when I was working with one of the large insurance companies, for many geographical regions they preferred not to see "R&R ____ " but would rather see the removal of asphalt type shingles called out with the following item:

Tear off, haul and dispose of comp. shingles - 20-25 year

If the shingles are heavier than 25 year, there is another database item for 30-40 year shingle removal.

Of course this is for the measurement of the slope that is damaged (or entire roof if warranted) with no waste.  Then the appropriate replacement shingle (Like, Kind, Quality) with appropriate waste for that roof (usually 10% for gable, 15% for Hip or a very cut-up gable roof).

The default "shingle removal" item includes removal of felt, and I believe that is a fairly standard practice.  But with the database choices, you can do it differently if the carrier demands it. 

There were some bad "starter boards" along the eves. The bill included some perimeter 1x6 boards, but not in the main field of the roof, it was not the kind of re-deck you might have to do if it had "space sheathing" for old cedar shingles. They had 3 tab, removed it, put back 3 tab.

This was a pretty simple claim for me, I backed out the rotten wood that we don't owe, and the adjuster estimate was within $40 of the resulting cost to replace the roof.  This was a very isolated storm with local roofers, normal prices, no scalping.

Here in the land of "fruits and nuts" we take them down to the deck. Actually that was standard practice for the manager I had at Katrina, but as someone said earlier, you have to go with the flow.

In the midwest/plains, the unit price always included felt off/felt on...like Bob said it gets shredded in the tear-off.  The last time I used Xact, their per/sq price included the felt, at least for the zip codes I was using.  Don't know if that same inclusion applied to other zips in the warmer climates.  Then you have your ordinances that came about regarding ice/water shield, so that's a factor for valleys and 2 ft up the slope past exterior wall plus the soffit overhang.  One more thing to think about if that coverage is available...and if you know whether you can or should include it or not.        

Thanks Mike.  Anyone else, feel free to chime in.

I realize that some of you don't use Xactimate, and "do not consider it the gold standard". For what it's worth, this is what the 800 Lb Gorilla includes in painting a wall.  Says the same prep if doing 2 coats, seal and paint, etc.

You will see estimates where they are trying to protect cabinets from overspray or drips...  and you have to be the judge if it is needed.  If you think the non-painted area needs protection, it would be a separate line item and is not included.  It is pennies per sf to mask off, but I try to avoid most of that "fluff" unless it is clearly needed. 

I personally consider a "drop cloth" to be included for any painting, even though it isn't called out in the item description.

On nearly all of the roofs I've paid for and had the opportunity to reinspect during the replacement process,  the felt was replaced.

Too many holes from too many roofs and felt is cheap.  It comes off with the tear-off and after the "chicken-scratch" to get the many staples/nails down flat,  the felt goes on like it has velcro.

The good roofers do this as a matter  of course.  The bad ones do whatever they can get away with.

Happy Trails

Although I may be new to adjusting, I am by no means new to building. Being the new kid on the block, I certainly don't want to get on the wrong side of the members here because I get a great deal of useful information from the site. But more than thirty years behind me defies anyone to tear off roofing shingles WITHOUT tearing off the felt. It simply CAN"T be done, and ISN"T done. And any roofer that says he can tear off shngles without tearing off the felt is just feeding you a line of bull$#@%. I grew up in Texas and began my career there. I have lived in Houston, Longview, and Dallas. I am now in Tennessee, but also lived and worked in Georgia for a number of  years. And yet to this day, I have never seen anyone try to remove shingles without removing the felt.

Paul

Thanks Paul, I am with you on that. What are your thoughts on plumbing jacks and edge metal?

I allow plumbing jacks and edge metal because it is standard trade practice to replace those items if doing a re-roof. There are exceptions to every rule, and I have run into odd things like a rare instance where a carrier didn't want to pay for new padding when carpet destroyed, yet most carpet installers will replace padding as a standard trade practice.  Carpet stores typicaly have a single price, includes carpet, pad, and tax. 

These are very small arguments to the overall project, and we have to choose our battles to focus on the things that are really important (measure the roof, watch for upgrading cheap 3 tab to a nicer architectural-laminated shingle, bury the salesman's 10% commission and insured's deductible into the "lump sum" quote that is not itemized, etc)

It's like trying to leave the old valley metal in place, it will look like the doors on Bonnie and Clyde's car.  Even if a windstorm only did "direct physical damage" to the shingles and did not directly impact the valleys, plumbing jacks, and edge metal.  If you are allowing to replace the roof due to a covered loss, these are the included tasks per standard trade practice to repair the damage you ARE allowing for.

Don't think I am a softie, I constantly run into people asking for a new faucet because I am only allowing to detach-reset in order to get water damaged vanity replaced, or want a new toilet because it "isn't that much more" than detach & reset the old one.  Those are black-white examples of non-covered items, not vital to the task of repairing the covered part of the loss.

It is not unusual to call a contractor to resolve an estimate that is a few $100 higher than yours, and discover that they are getting new faucets (weren't damaged), new toilet (pulling it to get to the damaged vinyl) or replacing a few sheets of rotten decking on the roof that had not seen the light of day since 3 layers ago.  Those items are not part of the claim.