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This reminds me of a wildfire I handled near Thousand Oaks, CA in the 1990's for an affluent person who purchased Roy Roger's old ranch. You assume all the outbuildings and fencing and burned PVC pipe systems supplying water to the horses is covered. But some of it wasn't - and they will press you for "what do we do about getting water to the horses" type questions.

I said "do what you have to do" and we will sort out the coverages.  Later they take that as an offer for coverage, and the exposed PVC pipe was not covered unless it supplied water to the main house.  Again, it is hard to suck the toothpaste back in the tube once it is out.  So you have to be really careful what you say, and also make sure on these farm and ranch buildings that the structure is specifically scheduled.  Call the agent if you aren't sure.

After that experience I had other Farm and Ranch claims where the examiner says "no worries they can apply their 10% to whatever damaged outbuildings they want".  But in other cases there was not a dime - so you really need to make sure.  And you can waste a lot of time scoping something that is not on the declarations page.

And even if there is a % available to anything detached from the house, it isn't hard to hit a policy limits problem on these outbuildings when you add everything up.  I had a file where I didn't catch for a while because I was behind on my diary, and it was very awkward.

Leland you have probably found the answer by now on the mobile home with the wheels removed and on blocks or jack stands. This is a requirement in many states for the building to be insured under a fire form; DP 1,2,3 or Homeowners 1,2,3.

This type dwelling can also be insured under the NFIP-WYO flood policy if it is strapped fo earth by 6 screw anchors and straps.

In some states you will find a few"trailor home" that are insured by insurance carriers with an auto form that was in use before the Homeowners and DP,s were allowed to cover the "homes". London still writes many of these in the South , SE & SW. They are a neat little cover that some finance companies who finance the property with a chattel mortgage as security use. The producer is usally  a bull pen agent in the finance company. It,s not uncommon for the  little "Lloyds" front company to send 20% of the gross premium dollors over sea's and for the producer and his claim department to try to pay all the claims and expenses out of the remaining 80%. I was part of the claim department on two of these scheme,s and learned(earned) a litte or a lot. ha ha.

This thread is bringing back memories. People get really spooky about the wiring. Even with parial burns, you can have Romex get very hot, possibly melt plastic sheathing inside, and there is a concern about wire not being properly insulated after such an event.   I have had contractors tell the Insured that wires could be touching, or almost touching each other (partial short circuit).

If the house had minor damage, you may want to allow for a trip charge for an electrician to check it out. If the electricity is on, they can do a "Megohmmeter" check, which can determine any partial short circuits or problems that are not obvious to the naked eye. If you look up the code ELE-MEG in Xactimate you will see this description: Megohmmeter and labor. Note: Diagnostic test to examine the electrical system in a damaged home for defective circuits.

You cannot assume that just because the circuit breakers are not tripping that there is not a problem.  If you allowed for a professional electrical inspection, they have the liability of stating that it is OK. 

There is a "rewire per Sf" item that can simplify your estimate if you have to replace all the wiring. If you look up the code ELE-REWIRE in Xactimate, you discover that this allows for all the wire and boxes, but excludes: Service cable, riser and weatherhead, meterbase, grounding wire and rod, main breaker panel and breakers, feeder cable between the meter base and panel, switches, outlets, covers or light fixtures.

I just updated my write up on page 6 to include this information, in case it helps anyone.
---------------------------------
If you are estimating a badly burned structure, there is also an Xactimate plumbing code PLM-ROUGH Includes: Supply and waste lines and installation labor.
Note: Priced per square foot of floor area based on a 3 to 4 bedroom home with an average kitchen and two full bathrooms.

Bob, good information, keep it coming for all of us working these fires. We hit two today that have pump and tank water sources. The system is also tied into underground water devices, ie sprinklers and home supply. They are all on large parcels of property and both losses have extensive underground sprinklers that were demolished by the fires. This gives me some concern as to coverage issues.  We have not looked at our total losses yet, but are doing so tomorrow.

There are not going to be a lot of outside adjusters called in to this fire Cat. SF, FI, and AS have many independent adjusters here, but other carriers are married to other vendors and really don't have that many claims, so don't expect many to be called out.

Confucius say:
"Better to have coverage concerns early in claim, than to find out when too late".

I like to call the agent on these rural claims, make them sweat a little bit, and earn their money.  Sometimes they have detailed drawings of the site from when they walked the property and everyone decided which outbuildings were going to be scheduled.  Other times the agent was so lazy that it was all done over the phone.  But when you involve the agent early, they are less likely to stab you behind the back when the Insured gets upset about something not being on the estimate because it wasn't scheduled, or not covered by the policy. 

We look at the mess after the fact.  We cannot control what policy or coverage was sold to them.

Most times the propane tanks belong to the gas supplier, and the homeowner pays a small lease per month as long as they are using propane.  Still coverage for it though, and the provider should be able to give you a cost.

The Xact price on the pump sounds high (when you say small pump, how small?) and may include sinking pipe which you wouldn't need (if this is a fire loss).  Didn't mention if this is indoor or outdoor, and if any wiring needed.

Regarding the boulder, that sounds like landscaping.  Guess I'd check the limits on APS/fences and/or landscaping, and see where it might work to find some coverage within those limits if you are exhausting one or the other.  I hope this rock is not a dire cause of concern for your insureds...otherwise it would seem you have your work cut out for you.

I missed the earlier thread - but that's funny. I started to spell it the way you did as that is how I heard the word, then looked up the line item and changed it. I'll take a look at your earlier post.

I have been doing "day claims" again since Katrina, about 5 hours north of you. The company I work with could use me down there but no replacement for me here... and one of the 2 large CAT vendors I am signed with send out a "stand down" notice yesterday. I'm just making ends meet, but at least I'm working.

No, I don't think so.  Basically his food would need to catch fire to be covered.  A peril insured against would have to ensue.  Some of these rural areas have their own poles holding the supply lines on their property, if they burned but the house didn't, I could see an examiner consider loss of food "in sequence to" the fire damage on the property.   Food is contents.  The DP-1 says it ensures contents, but I have had DP-1 claims with "0" coverage limit showing on the Declaration page for contents, and for that carrier it was an optional premium they elected not to pay.

The first page of the DP-1 says "This insurance applies to the Described Location, Coverages for which a Limit of Liability is shown and Perils Insured Against for which a Premium is stated."   It's not like a homeowners policy that provides a percentage of the structure limit for contents.

My copy of the DP-1 (ed 1-77) says this: When a Premium for Extended Coverage is shown in the Declarations, Perils 2 through 7 are made part of Perils Insured Against.

That is easy to overlook, at a casual glance you see all these extended coverages listed in the policy, but they are not active unless the guy paid for them. Otherwise it's pretty much just fire and explosion.  I just noticed that it EXCLUDES SMOKE which is really interesting - that may affect some of you folks with smoke damage when the structure did not actually catch fire.

My write-up on pg 6 has a section on the DP-1 because if you aren't used to them, have not got one to hand, people may not be familiar with "ACV only" on the structure, with no hope of recoverable depreciation:

Loss Settlement.
Covered property losses are settled at actual cash value at the time of loss but not exceeding the amount necessary to repair or replace the damaged property.

That's hard to say without more description of the repair.  I had an old pump on my well from the 1950's where the motor was above ground (a "jet pump" that pushes water down, and some water comes back up, not very efficient).  We replaced it with a submersible pump for about $3,000 and that required pulling 50' of "inner pipes" from the existing well sleeve, replacing it with a single piece of PCV and the submersible pump at the end.  You lower the pump and inner pipe into the existing well casing.  That price included new wiring and metal junction box, that would be damaged in a fire. 

Check into what Xactimate includes for this item in the description.  If they have to get a specialized well truck out there to pull pipe up from within the well casing, that is charged by the foot.  We had a shallow well and live near a lake with good aquifer.  Some of these wells are over 200' deep and can be expensive, you can't just use a database entry but if you are describing the same scope of repair that they need, it can be a starting point for initial settlement.  I agree with Mike that it sounds high if they can replace damaged components above ground only.  I see a lot of PVC well casings around here, and conceivably a ground fire could damage it.

I did not see the S. Cal. fires as a big event for catastrophe adjusters. Just read the Liberty Mutual news release on CADO and it will tell your that all the Staff GA's and Cat Managers will be working this one. The under ground piping for sprinker heads bring up some need to start reading the HO-3 and see were the  landmines may be. I will try to do that today.  Wow the DP1 with the EC premium block paid does not cover smoke ?

They get smoke coverage if they paid for EC coverage. My point was that if you don't see that they paid for extended coverage - you might think smoke was covered as it is talked about on the policy. But if EC coverage doesn't appear on the declaration page - someone could waste a lot of time writing up smoke damage to a property that did not directly catch fire.

This is copied and pasted from the DP-1 (1-77 edition)
When a Premium for Extended Coverage is shown in the Declarations, Perils 2 through 7 are made part of Perils Insured Against.
...7. Smoke, meaning sudden and accidental damage from smoke.
This peril does not include loss caused by smoke from fireplaces or from agricultural
smudging or industrial operations.

In my earlier post I said "Otherwise it's pretty much just fire and explosion.  I just noticed that it EXCLUDES SMOKE which is really interesting".  Sorry if that wasn't clear, what I meant was that if they only had the basic fire policy, without the EC, then smoke appears to be excluded.

Folks, the DP-1 policy is bare bones.  One of the exclusions is this one:
"We do not cover loss to lawns, plants, shrubs or trees outside of buildings."

That is an eye-opener.  We are used to huricane damaged trees being excluded, only covered if they catch fire or a vehicle hits them, but the DP-1 will not even give you fire damage to trees.

Just finished the HO-3. To find coverage for the PVC , copper or steel lines for a watering system for lawns or animals it would have to Coverage B-Oher Structures...  then go to C Loss Settlement drop down to 1.Property of the following types, then drop down to c. structures that are not buildings;

and, lastly look in exclusions... not there.... so I say it's covered; but ask the carrier, and then present your reasons.

I agree, I have covered sprinklers and watering systems for animals on HO-3.   I had one claim where lightning hit the ground, high voltage ran through water in a huge sprinkler system, and it exploded in various places.   We paid it.

If you have a Farm and Ranch policy, as some of these rural estates do, the forms are less standardized. Some of those forms can be very restrictive, and you cannot "assume" anything.

If nothing else, always start your estimate out with a paragraph that it is subject to carrier approval and is not an authorization for repairs or coverage.

I talked to a Farmers Rep today and they are not using any independents in this fire cat. He said after the screw up by many newbies in Katrina, they were not going to use independents any more. I somehow doubt that, but I will have to admit, some newbies really are messing up this industry. Three day wonders being sent out to do claims work is a mistake in the certainty of things. Fortunately, Cunningham Lindsey does not use independents with no experience, unlike several other vendors.

You might be glad you did not make it to the CA fires. It is getting political, too political, rules changing, ways of working the claims changing on an hourly basis. Hopefully we will muddle through this somehow.

I kind of doubt it too, because no matter how burned they may have gotten, they cannot maintain a huge staff just to have them ready for a catastrophe. I think that is one of those pendulums that swings back and forth.
Over-staff --> Downsize --> Outsource --> Staff up. This fire event did not impact the quantity of houses for one single carrier to hit the wall. But the next time a huge event hits, they will have to inspect those claims within certain time limits, and phones will be ringing.

Hey, if they went to Vale they are a 3 week wonder, not a 3 day wonder...
Seriously, I have seen Tom's posts on this site for 8 years, I have been reading this site since 1999.
He welcomes new people, but also tries to improve them and shine a little light into the darkness.

I've been busy enough, and tired enough at the end of the day, the last few days that I just didn't feel like posting.  I chose to turn in and get some sleep rather than post. But I have been keeping up with this thread each day, at least by reading all the posts. I especially think thanks are due to Mr. Harvey and Mr. Koontz for their willingness to share so much of their knowledge and wisdom. This really is the way CADO is supposed to work.

I, too, have a feeling that this will not be a long storm, and as Tom said, it may become a political nightmare. Today I saw the FEMA guys out in large numbers combing the same neighborhoods where I was working. There are at least a dozen total burns in the same neighborhoods I am working. The totals have frequently been the houses on three sides of the house I am inspecting. You wouldn't think stucco would burn so completely until you see nothing but a pile of ash with a chimney sticking up in the middle of it and maybe a 90 square foot section of stucco left where a stucco covered house once stood. Despite the devastation in specific neighborhoods, I still don't see how the numbers of claims generated could warrant a massive call out of catadjusters. Time will tell.

The political climate is another thing altogether. Remember that California has the highest number of electoral votes. That means the smart presidential candidates will be taking sidetrips from Iowa and New Hampshire to make sure they are seen among the people of California and make at least a pretense of serious concern. The political reality is that FEMA is likely to be more visible in California than it was in Mississippi because California has more clout. I'm not saying it's right. Just saying that's how it too often works.  The politics are likely to make our jobs more difficult. Or it might extend our time here as we work the cleanup. Again, time will tell.