08/12/2009 9:43 PM |
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Tell me what ya'll think.
I went on an inspection today for a claim with a 2008 date of loss. There are no coverage issues.
There are twenty-five buildings, partial two-story, with two layers of t-locks and 40-50 squares per building. I estimate the shingles are about 12 years old and in average condition. The top layer is an off-white color. There is a total of about 1100 + squares of surface area. Each building has an average of 6 to 10 wind and/or hail damaged shingles over the entire roof. There is maybe three to four squares of damage in total.
As most of you know, they have not manufactured t-locks for about 5 years. There are some roofers that have them but they are almost impossible to find. If not for the material availability issue, I would estimate a minimum charge repair to each roof and do not think any roofer would argue. If all the roofs have to be replaced, we are talking about $400,000.00.
Do you think it is feasible to pay a roofer extra to carefully remove the top layer of t-locks from one of the roofs and use the salvaged shingles to repair the other 24 buildings? The roofer can apply "pookie" in the nail holes and use the same holes. I have never proposed this before but think it may be an acceptable alternative. I understand no roofer will give any warranty but they do not have one now.
Feedback?
Gimme a bottle of anything and a glazed donut ... to go! (DLR)
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08/12/2009 9:55 PM |
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I can't imagine that would go over well, but it is going to be interesting to see what the senior members say.
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BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
08/12/2009 9:58 PM |
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Posted By dcmarlin on 12 Aug 2009 09:43 PM
... If all the roofs have to be replaced, we are talking about $400,000.00
OK, so they are likely paying premiums for a multi-million dollar policy for damage to their combined buildings. It is what it is.
1). If the hail hits alone are not enough to total the roof, then I suppose you have found some number within the test squares, but not enough to ring the buzzer. That would give you an "X" number of damaged shingles per square times the squares for that slope.
2). The wind damaged slopes are gonna be considered "non-repairable" by most folks, especially with the multi-layer scenario. I believe the cost-equivalent for T-locks these days is often considered a 30 yr laminate in terms of pricing. That is sort of an upgrade, but the 25 year 3 tab could be a downgrade and you have to make a choice. Of course the hail-hit shingles are in the same boat.
3). You have to dance with the one that brought ya. If you are working for a carrier that does not always take the high road... then you may have to get inventive. I personally would not consider alternatives to R&R if it was up to me, and the shingles are not available.
4). If there are some completely un-damaged slopes, that is where I would try to stop the bleeding. If the hail was directional.
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to look at this another way, body shops used to pound out dents and fill them with bondo. Now people pretty much expect the Insurance company to buy new sheetmetal, and "make it like it was" (and I believe there are some state regulations on Insurance company practices in terms of vehicle repairs - Jim Gary would know). If it was your car, and you had no insurance, and you had to fix it yourself, you might get a gallon of bondo and fix it.
If it was your building and you had no insurance, or an ACV only policy, super high deductible or whatever, you may as a reasonable person become creative in the repair that you as an individual approach a contractor to do, and pay him for.
It is kind of a different thing for an Insurance company to suggest something other than R&R if it isn't going to be in a totally pre-loss condition. The real question is "is it repairable" and for the company that indemnifies the building with obsolete roofing... I would have to say R&R it.
Bob H
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
08/13/2009 1:26 AM |
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If it can be repaired, that is the amount of the loss...... but your insured has to agree. I would hire a roof consultant to give you an opinion and the cost of repairs if I was the insurance carrier. $400,000 loss has to be justified to pay.
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08/13/2009 12:34 PM |
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Ray, I actually went out there with an engineer. He agrees the roof can easily be repaired as long as materials can be located. That is the problem; finding t-locks.
Gimme a bottle of anything and a glazed donut ... to go! (DLR)
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
08/13/2009 1:07 PM |
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The areas around El Paso , New Mexico had T -locks on ever roof, but this was 10 years ago. A gent named Grey near St. Louis is a roof expert on material that is no longer available, and if $400 k is on the line I would fo some reserch and get this job repaired for about $1,000 per building. Why can, t you hand cut a T-Lock shingle in the shop and bring them to the job site and install them.
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ddreisbachMember Posts:172
08/13/2009 2:39 PM |
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What do you plan to do with the 25th building - the one that's donating the T-locks? If it was my building I wouldn't want a different roof on it. Do you have any matching laws to deal with? And even if you don't, putting a different roof on that building would present an unacceptable appearance, wouldn't it?
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
08/13/2009 5:07 PM |
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Not being hateful, but I am unaware of any states that have"matching Laws" Is it just me?
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08/13/2009 5:58 PM |
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Insured is owed for what they have at time of loss. If it is a true repair, write it up as such and wait to see if contractor brings availability to the table. As an adjuster, I've had to call around to see if those shingles were in fact unavailable. Some carriers also have a searching criteria where they can find shingle availability nationally.
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ddreisbachMember Posts:172
08/13/2009 7:28 PM |
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Posted By Ray Hall on 13 Aug 2009 05:07 PM
Not being hateful, but I am unaware of any states that have"matching Laws" Is it just me?
Hmmm. My memory isn't what it used to be but it seems I've worked in such places.
In any event, the question remains: What do you do with the 25th building?
(You could never be hateful....)
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08/13/2009 7:59 PM |
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I agree with Ray that an attempt needs to be made to locate some t-locks then pay to repair the roofs. I have repaired a few roofs that had 3 tabs and know how difficult it is to remove or loosen adjacent shingles without tearing them up. I don't see any way that you can remove t-locks for re-use, especially after sitting in the sun for aprox. 12 years. I know that as a property owner, that would be completely unacceptable.
I would think that after researching over the internet and making phone calls, some t-locks could be found. It seems like white was the most common color used for a long time so the odds are you could find the right color, although they will be a lots whiter than the existing roof.
If they can't be found there might be another option but I don't know if it would be acceptable to the insurance company. For many years, I have purchased from a dealer who sells factory closeouts, overruns, and surplus and used them on my houses, and have recommended to friends. The cost is consistantly well under the price of retail dealers but don't come with a warranty. Although I have never heard of this being done on a claim, I have never had a repair claim where the shingles could not be matched. This may not be allowed when paying a claim although there could be some valid arguments in favor of it.
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08/14/2009 3:20 AM |
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Thanks for all the responses. Please do not take this the wrong way but I have been an adjuster for many years and do know what needs to be done to correctly handle a claim. I was just looking for opinions regarding if others feel the repair proposed is feasible and reasonable or if I am totally off base.
Rickhans, my original thought was the same as yours. Can we reasonably use a 12 year old shingle from another roof for a patch? But, salvaged parts are used on cars every day. From a 40 - 50 square roof, I am sure we can find a couple hundred shingles that are in good condition. Heck, if needed, we can use two of the 25 roofs to repair the rest.
Bob, I agree R&R is probably what should be done but it is part of our job to look for alternative solutions, if reasonable. As you said, if not for insurance, most reasonable prudent people would look for an alternative and creative repair solution.
The insured (a condo assoc.) already has a roofer so they are pushing for the replacement. The minor damage (wind with a few hail hits thrown in) is substantially less than 1% of the roof surface. If a close t-lock color can be found, the damage can easily be repaired. There in lies the problem, finding t-locks. Due to patents, you really cannot cut them out of 90 lb. That is why I was asking if others felt the repair proposal is feasible or not. Thanks again.
ddreisbach, as for the 25th roof, I would estimate to replace it with 30 year. The fact that all other roofs are t-locks is a non issue; unless the birds complain.
Gimme a bottle of anything and a glazed donut ... to go! (DLR)
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08/15/2009 12:41 AM |
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While I think your repair solution is clever, and possibly feasible, I seriously doubt you could sell it to the association. In addition, I doubt you could find a roofer willing to do the job. I'm not talking about warranty, I'm talking about the fact that they don't want the responsibility if, for example, they run out of shingles. For Ray, just as an example, Ohio has some very serious matching laws. Most often, admittedly, having to do with siding. Finally talking about cutting some shingles. I have to disagree with you about the patent issue. I was just in a meting recently that involved litigation surrounding patents on specific car parts. The president seems to indicate that patent protects a manufacturer from others infringing on their design and innovation in creating new products. It does not, however, stop a consumer from purchasing a part to affect a repair to a legitimate OEM purchased product. To say it another way, the Dodge Ram grill is very specific and cannot be copied by Toyota to put on their new model of truck to compete with Dodge. However, if you have a Dodge Ram and the grill is broken, there are no laws prohibiting a parts manufacturer from making a replacement grill for the vehicle. Yes we're talking roofs and not trucks here, but the principal is the same. In fact, it's done with aluminum siding all the time. Aluminum siding hasn't been produced in mass amounts in many years, but people aren't wrapping houses over a dinged piece. There are plenty of manufacturers who will custom make you a replacement square of siding that matches the original embossing and everything. They can even color fade it to match the old stuff on the house. In summary, your idea, while good, isn't going to work. If I were in your shoes, I would first check with the carrier's council, but your best bet is to have a machine shop cut a press dye in the shape of those shingles, and use it to cut replacements. Last suggestion. If you know anyone currently on a State Farm assignment, they may be able to help you. State Farm has a really nifty web based computer application called the Roofing Locator Service. Basically, it's used to find suppliers who have in stock what you need to avoid this exact situation. Best of luck.
I do it because I want to provide a better life for my family than my parents could provide for me.
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BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
08/15/2009 8:10 AM |
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Mike, when you and I were working together toward the end of 2008 the locator service assisted me on a T-Lock file. They did not find the replacement shingles. Keep in mind folks, that when an adjuster allows to "patch" a roof rather than "replace", we are assuming that a roofer is going to come out to the site with a bundle of new shingles that are going to replace old with new, in terms of the area with direct physical damage. When those new bundles of shingles are not available, that is when our friend has to go through this grief.
Bob H
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08/15/2009 9:06 AM |
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Assuming you are an independent adjuster? Don't know what reporting you've done to date but the carrier needs to be advised of the $400k+ exposure for reserving and made aware of the issues and what steps you have taken to locate t-locks. You should be asking for direction from the carrier. I'm sure it's not the first time they've faced this issue with t-locks. Prompt and thorough reporting enables the carrier to take necessary steps re: coverage determination and provide the necessary direction.
If the carrier is already aware of the issues then a followup report re: your damage estimates (repair and replacment) ; the insured's position; and asking what further investigation the carrier would like you to accomplish.
Sounds like the carrier is already aware of the issues and I suspect the insured has indicated that a repair is not going to be acceptable. All you can do is present the options together with the insured's position (which is key coupled with 1) finding replacement t-locks; and 2) a contractor willing and able to guarantee the repairs).
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BobHVeteran Member Posts:759
08/15/2009 9:36 AM |
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This is not Mr. Marlin's first rodeo. I have seen him on this forum for many years.
Bob H
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Ray HallSenior Member Posts:2443
08/15/2009 1:31 PM |
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This problem has been around longer than any of us. I had a loss with some of these issues when I was out of training school one week. About the same differance $25,000 to repair the direct windstorm damage and $400,000 to replace all the roofs because of....... bla bla.... bla..... I called my boss and said I was over my head and the insured was eating me alive, please give the file to some one who has the knowledge on how to close this file. My boss never took the file away from me and it was settled. About 6 years after this loss I was at a meeting with both my old bosses over dinner I brought this case up and both kinda grinned when I ask them why did the leave me out in the deep water to sink or swim.( I had my own IA officethen)
They did ask, do you remember how you closed the loss and I said no I cant remember how I closed it. How did I close it, was my question. They grinned again and said; we can,t remember either. However, you was our staff employee and we trained you and still have confidence that you will find a way to close these types of losses.
I have confidence in you Marlin, hang in there and get it closed.
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08/15/2009 1:53 PM |
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400,000 ......Hmmmmm...sure sounds like a nice biller
Mark S Garland
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08/15/2009 3:46 PM |
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Based on these new posts from Mike and Bob, I am going to contact ITEL. They recently started a roof matching service. I may have some luck. I have also requested some of the roofers I work with in the area see if they can locate a few squares. Mike, I will have my engineer/expert look into the patent issue. If we can cut a pattern out of 90 lb., problem solved. Del, I made the carrier well aware of all the potential issues prior to my inspection. As Bob said, this is not my first rodeo, I have been adjusting for over 20 years (which is still less than 50% as long as Ray). Mark, no % of the billing for me. I only bill at T & E (and btw, I am wearing my Capt. Tony t-shirt today; going to a Margaritaville party!)
Gimme a bottle of anything and a glazed donut ... to go! (DLR)
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08/15/2009 5:08 PM |
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Marlin
Good for you and drink a tall smooth one for me........
Mark S Garland
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