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Last Post 05/11/2013 4:38 PM by  guycarr
Newbie Adjuster Advice
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Ray Hall
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10/28/2009 9:34 PM

It will not be a problem to get roofers to replace one square, one slope or 1/2 of a roof .IF the carriers kiss the deal and give them millions of new jobs in a lifetime. Its called the good with the bad and ain't no bad when you can not loose on a little job and plenty of profit using xmate on the total losses. With a salesman/inspector making 2 grand a week with expenses and some time off. All the roofer has to do is use the same procedure you use. And it has never been proven that roofers are less honorable workmen than people with an insurance adjusters license.

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jdacree
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10/29/2009 8:10 AM
Ed, I am also a newbie. Got my license in September 09. Have gone through the question asking and the rebuffal. Without adding every quote in this thread it is plain and simple, IF YOU show initiative, research, ask specific questions you will get answers. I have gone through the short verision of this mill, if you want to see, research the questions on the forums, ALL OF THEM, that I have asked. These folks will help you, IF YOU WILL HELP YOURSELF. Do not get discouraged. From my viewpoint, the help is given to the newbies that show with thier persistance that they will not cut and run when the going gets tough.

To give some positive slant, I have been selected as a newbie worth the time for mentoring, I anmon Eberls active roster, ready for assignment, and I am IN COLORADO working on hail damage for a construction company. None of this was given to me. I stayed on this website continious asking questions, stayed on the big 4 IA Companies web site submitting resumes and resume updates, spent tons of money on licences, spent tons of money on tools and equipment getting ready for the "call". When I was invited to go over to my mentors for some one on one training, I DID NOT show up without the equipment needed to do the job. When I got the call to go to Colorado, I was on the road within 36 hours loaded to stay on site for the time that the job will last.

How did this happen? I researched, researched, researched. Used the forums here, used the weather service histories, used every web based resource I could find. If you will show commitment help will come, along with work. We ARE NEW, the job market is full of experienced adjusters that need work. Be patient and committed, take what shows up, dont be pickey.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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edrowe330
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10/29/2009 12:44 PM

I think i got mis read.. Im not at all discouraged, hell im just getting started. I hope you are enjoying colorado. i do update all the time on the sites. I see a lot of people slamming the pay they make doing this here. I am .. shocked! honestly. I dont know I am just new, but I have a cousin who owns a firm in FLA, making a killing I assume by his 4500 sq ft water front home and all benz in the garage. My mothers best friends son and wife are now living in a 1/2 million dollar home, they were cops for years, jumped in this worked as staff adjuster then started thier own thing, only work local for themselves. My brother made well over 25k a month Unlicensed emergency in both Katrin and Ike, although Ike he only worked 1 month. i have a very good personl friend who worked the inland hurricane in Ill earlier this year and made well over 40k in 1 1/2 months. I personally would not subject myslef to brutal conditions living in a hotel or 5th wheel or worse and cant imagine anyone else doing it, unless the $$$$ added up to well over 100k. And unless your working 12 months a year, and I dont know anyone who is you better be having some big income months to do that. i see all the time commercial adjuster jobs in town paying 80k local no travel, if your not beating that, why would you do cat??also, i know what the day rate is for some of the bigger comapnies for auto claims desk, do the math its in excess of 14k a month, why would anyone crawl into a destryed home in the heat climb a steep roof put yourself threw all of the hazards of that type of work for less than you could make sitting on the claims desk?"ac answering a phone"  I know exactly what claims desk pay is for both Ebrels and Pilot.. maybe im wrong, but I know what my friends have done my brother and what u can make with just auto adjusting??? so Im thinking no not wrong. Also, what I was saying about day work. there are many companies out the with IA's who have day work, u may not make 100k+ but you dont have to go anywhere, if you add a second income ie real esate and do them both, you will do well over 150k the current markets are in ruins, but real estate wont ever stay that way long. people want homes investment primary 2nd homes new ones fixer uppers.. they will buy. Or, I may just run work cats as they come up and do real estate while at home. 3 of the companies im talking to "say" thay have day work.. Great, i have no expereince and... well you know the rest.. I know the good ole boy network, ill get in at some point.

So, just to be clear, I wasnt ragging anyone, i was almost poking fun because the thread went from help a newbie to become a nurse.. and then just took off from there..lmao, it was kinda funny, sorry..but im still laughing at the left turn on this thread.

not discouraged, just kinda getting started so im reading all these post on here and getting a feel for it. ill get in somewhere some how, and do fine.

Now off my soap box, sorry.. went off on a serious left turn here myself.. Does anyone know what Crawford pays? I looked them up online, looks like yes they openings for some willing to travel "me" newbies. But they are all salary. I dont mind this but wont even consider if its less than 40k. i mean, thats a beans and rice salary after taxes... crap... 40k start id jump in and go for it.. Im sure based on what they say on their site they raise you as you learn. And I can do real estate to suppliment my income part time. if you know, please let me know. ill send them a resume today if they are at that or more. I cant believe it would be more though for a newbie

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moco
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10/29/2009 2:15 PM
Ed, the point being for the post taking a 360 is to honestly inform the new people what they are in far. This is not at all an easy way to make a living, or can you generate steady income, especially being new. Neither is it easy to ge started in. I left a stabile career in 2007 "cold turkey", cashed out my 401 and spent it on all kinds of training including obtaining the all mighty Texas all lines license. I have not made one damned red cent in Texas, though the license has saved me time and money in other States bypassing their prerequisites for licensing. At this point i am kicking myself in the a** for leaving that regular job, it paid the bills. I have not worked in 8 weeks, with exception to a few assigments that literally cost my billing fee in fuel to get there. I truly believed at first that i would learn this business as quickly as possible (the basics) and the money would start pouiring in. Not hardly. I was lucky in the sense that a friend was already in the business and helped get me in the door with the vendor we both work (or did work for when there was work) and held my hand. We are both sitting at home now discussing other career fields. The day to day worry from NI's calling, emails from examiners to do this or that, change this or that go back out for this and that and so on so on is overbearing for me at least. The energy one exerts to getting into this would be better used to chasing something else with a more stabile trend. However if your schedule permits you to up and run when called, then maybe this business is for you. But anyone looking to make a steady day to day career out of it is i for a long haul in the beginning. Just look at the volume of IA's on this forum with as many years experience as am old needing and looking for work. If someone wants to do this day by day, well land a staff job making that 40k a year + bennys, but i will not do it. For 40k i will get a job with the iron workers or carpenters union and be off every evening and resting on days off not worrying about what emails i have, or how many of my fees have been paid this pay period. Trust me, the anticipation and constant need to be around your laptop gets the better of you in the end.
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edrowe330
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10/29/2009 2:55 PM

Good point.. i know this wont be easy.. Really not trying to stir up anything, just thought the thread was funny, and.. people do make money doing this, feast or famon always I guess.. And I really dont want to be a nurse..lol, though I know they werent talking to me.. Any chance you know what Crawford pays salaried adjusters?? LOL

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moco
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10/29/2009 3:16 PM
No idea what Crawford pays. Probably in the range you noted. But beware they are cliquey, as well as the rest of the business. I have made money, but after you pay taxes, expenses and sit home for 2.5 months having to pay the bills, insurance, quartely taxes,groceries, license renewals, ce courses to keep licenses etc. The savings go fast. I have worked nothing but daily claims and can't seem to even get a chance with another vendor. I have been contacted and submitted required paperwork to them, even received login and pass word from several. But, no assignments. Most of these companies want an active roster, but will only keep a very select few busy. Just food for thought guy. If you have something semi stable on the side hold on to it and just wait for an event, but the demand as that in 2004-2005 has diminished and no signs of anything like that happening soon, which is when most newbies still hanging around get their chance, unless you know someone like you stated in your post.
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Ol' Ghost
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10/29/2009 5:14 PM
C'mon, where's that good ol' All-American can-do attitude and rugged pioneer spirit we're all supposed to have? What happened to that all powering supreme male ego that drives women wild? Keep the faith, Babies! Each day of beautiful calm weather is just one day closer to the phone ringing to send you off down the yellow brick road.

But, and that's what you're sitting on right now, for those whose nerves are getting the best of them, have you given any thought to funeral sales positions, or opening a dog & cat specialty cookie and treats store, or how about a shelf stocker at the local adult movie & novelty store just over the hill? All good and worthy positions for just the right individual.

Ol' Ghost
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Bobabooey
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11/10/2009 1:33 PM

 

I meet adjusters every week on roofs.  (They are now trying to sell roofs).  They are up there tearing shingles trying to get me to approve them for wind damage.   They tell me they were supposed to make $200,000 a year as an adjuster but are now selling roofs.  They don't know what happened.

I will give you my personal experience from this job.  8 years ago, I was treated as a professional by my IA employer (I had 2 prior years working as a staff adjuster at a large insurance company)  I was utilized and used on every storm and made good money.  I never had my estimates nitpicked by a file reviewer because I know what I am doing and because then you only had to make sure of a couple of things.  1. coverage was right  2.  you paid a fair amount to the insured.  That was basically it. 

 Then after 2004 the number of adjusters working for us expanded 10 times.  The owners realized that they could make a lot more money if they just hired anyone with a license.  They would just hire more file reviewers to fix the newbys mistakes.    We then hired anyone with experience to be a "file reviewer". (Which are without a doubt the single biggest nuisance I have ever had to deal with in my entire life)  Now the coverage and the amount are glossed over.  I would bet over 50% of the files are rejected because something is not the right font, or we did not use the correct header or some other worthless bull$##$ that does not matter.

Now as an adjuster with 10 years experience, Iinstead of sending in quality work to the insurance company, ,I have to argue with file reviewers who are sitting in cubicles 1000 miles from the loss location.  Instead of sending out a few experienced guys with good time managment skills who can make a lot of money and do the job right, we send out twice the amount of newbies and they make half as much.  Who wins?  The owner of the company.  He could care less how much the adjusters make as long as he has a ton of them out there.  He makes the same amount of money and gets the files turned in faster.  The file reviewers touch them up to make them look professional but they have never actually scoped the loss.  You can make pictures say anything you want.  If you do get deployed, you most likley will not make what you are expecting to make.

 

 

I don't mean to be discouraging, but it is what it is.  You have to remember that you mean nothing to the company you work for.  They could care less about you and they have thousands of people waiting to deploy.  Maybe you will be lucky and make some money and maybe you wont.  My advice-have something to fall back on.

 

 

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Bobabooey
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11/10/2009 1:58 PM

I was thinking about my post and want to add something to it.

This CAN be a very profitable and great career in today's climate.  I have had months where I have made tons of money.   Just go into this using your brain.  Do not put all of your eggs in one basket.  It is a mistake that I along with others have made.  I would still go into this business if I had to do it over again because you cant beat those huge months.  BUT, I would make sure I had a good reliable job that I could fall back on because it seems that those huge months are getting more and more rare.

Get a job that you can always count on then become a cat adjuster.  If you do it the other way around then you are making a mistake.

If you are young and get into this to make a lot of money that is great.  But you may find out a few years from now that you have a wife and kids and no work  Be prepared for it.

 

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Ray Hall
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11/10/2009 4:51 PM

I agree with these two post; however my caveat is, "you are only as good as your last storm" that is the way it has been since the vendor system started.

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jdacree
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11/11/2009 12:12 AM

I would have to agree with some of the information about the Adjusters selling roofs.  Many of them, myself included, are selling roofs.  I am recently licensed in Texas (Sept. 09).  In the short time since getting my license I have been diligent in my reading of the posts on this site, garnering information, and making contacts.  The only job offer answered in the affirimitive was from a roofing company that need personnel with construction background and adjusting training.  As I have commented on other threads, I am selling roofs because there is income to be made, and a ton of experience to learn first hand while actually scoping hail/wind damage, and preparing claims to be reviewed by the carrier's adjusters and settled.

I would dis-agree with the comment that the roof salesman are lifting and tearing shingles.  The comment as stated sound to be premeditated mischief, or fraud.  At least with the organization that I am with I have heard of no one doing things of this nature.  We also are digilently looking for damage, not just to the roof but to other areas of the structure as well.  In most cases we are in concert with the carrier's adjuster in the settlement of the claim.  As far as the comment about the structure of the adjuster force I would also agree, in that it appears that a number of the adjusters in this area do not know much about hail damage or shingles.  An example is a roof I reviewed today.  The homeowner has had three (3) adjusters from the carrier out, and during this process they have allowed damage to STEEL gutters, complete refinishing of the patio deck, damage to the shutters, and exterior paint due to hail damage, while at the same time denying any damage to the Cedar Shake Roof.  When I layed out a test square on the storm facing slope in addtion to soft metal damage, a pattern of hail marks all across the slope surface, and the normal indentions measuring up to 1/2" in diameter, I also found 12 new split shingles, along with 2-3 broken shingles.

The house used for this example is a 2 story 6 pitch, which is easily accesible.  This example, while it is an isolated example, verifies the statment in the previous posts about the in-experience of the adjuster force.  Most, if not all of the allowed damages could be seen visually from ground level. or with the aid of a 2 step stepstool.  NONE of the damage to the roof structure can be seen from ground level due to the sloping nature of the property.

If we the newbies are to gain experience in the scoping of damages in the real world, we the newbies are going to have to look at other segements of the home damage industry in which to gain knowledge.  I feel very confidient that given 6 months to a year of reviewing actual hail damage and reviewing claims with the various carrier's claims adjusters, and while working with a group of other salesmen that have from 1 to 30 years experience looking at this type of damage, I will be considered to be very experienced,and competent in my assesment of these types of damage.

In summary, there are bad apples in every field.  I know deep in my bones that there are roofing salesmen out there that will damage material just to make a sale.  I am also just as convinced that there are adjusters, both new and experienced, that take pride in the fact that they are the best at lowballing an insured's claim.  In the whole neither of these groups are of the majority for either of the fields discussed.  Training is essential if we as a group of adjusters are to be recogonized as the professional that we wish to be recogonized as.  The ability to get that training has to be taken where it is offered.  ALL of us have to make a living while learning the tools of our trade.

Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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moco
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11/11/2009 1:25 AM
JD, very good and detailed response. Makes perfect sense. Everyone on here started someplace, and did what they had to, as well, until they received their first assignment. Don't listen to all the BS. The most important things to remember are 1) Know the policies/coverage 2) Return the property to preloss condition within the coverage area based on damage 3) And the last thing i always consider is, if this was my home and policy what would i consider reasonable and fair. Lowballing is at some point going to kickback in the form of re-inspection or supplemental if more could have been allowed for. Someone is going to catch that you did not allow enough. Do what you feel is fair, don't add things that are not present and you will be successful. However, there are going to be times when your work will be second guessed and requested to be changed by those you answer to, but do as told and if you disagree attach a report (save yourself a copy) stating you was asked per whoever to change in case it ends up in court you can point out those above you with the final say so. I know this happens because i have been asked to revise in ways i disagreed with and when it was questioned later i start dropping names with no hesitancy. CYA man, CYA.
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Bobabooey
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11/11/2009 8:25 AM
JD, I admire that you are working for a roofing company. You are learning 100 times more about the roofing process than adjusters that are sitting home. I guarantee you will learn many things about roofs that I don't know and I have been an adjuster for a while. This will pay off for you.
I know 99% of roofers don't tear up roofs. I was being sarcastic. However, I have had a few lately that have been tearing the shingles.
I know because they did it right in front of me.
A lot of companies are not paying for wind "lift" but they will pay if the shingles are creased or torn.

Twice in the last couple of months the roofer (who was obviously new) got up on the roof and started pulling up the shingles. One was just unsealling them. The other one was actually tearing the shingles. I asked both what the hell they were doing. Both told me that they were just showing me the wind lift. They thought this is what they were supposed to do. I took pictures of them pulling on the shingles and sent them to the company. Makes you wonder who trained them.

JD, I am positive that you will be deployed as an adjuster and make good money in this business. One thing you will learn is that roofers and adjusters don't always see eye to eye. On denials the roofer gets off of the roof and is ticked off at the adjuster for not "knowing what he is doing" and the adjuster gets off the roof mad that the roofers "don't know what they are doing". But, I get 80% of my work due to roofers and roofers make their living off of insurance companies. Its just the nature of the business.
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joe
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11/11/2009 5:05 PM

i am bummed out now

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jdacree
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11/13/2009 12:29 AM
Quote from Moco, "And the last thing i always consider is, if this was my home and policy what would i consider reasonable and fair." This quote should be the credo that ALL adjusters and roof salesmen work under. When I look at a property, as a salesman, I look for every item of damage that could be related to the event. I AM NOT playing santa claus, I am just looking to return the property to the pre-event condition. When I do get an assignment as an adjuster, my inspection of a property will still be to find every item that can be attributed to the event at hand.

I have found as a roofing salesman, as I am sure that you all have found, a disgraceful ignorance on the part of the insureds. When they have an event most of them have no clue what is covered and what is not. As a representative of the carrier (when employed as an adjuster) the credo above makes it MY DUTY to protect the insured, not to take advantage of his ignorance. As a roofing salesman I feel , based on the credo above it is MY DUTY to again to determine every element of damage to the insured's property.

I KNOW that I will get crosswise with a number of adjusters in my present position. At the same time, those items that I list in my report will be documented, and an explanation of the reasoning can be had for the determination of those items, if asked. As was mentioned above, I feel that I will get a very good education both in the analysis of roofing, and the discovery of non-roof related damage(s) caused by the same event. I sincerely thank the personnel above for the complimentary nature of thier comments. We all strive to be recogonized by our peers, and I treasur comments such as those.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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jdacree
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11/13/2009 12:38 AM
New subject relating to wind/hail damage. In this area most of the guttering is 5" steel. About 40-50% of this guttering is attached by using long nails through ferrurels (sp). A number of the properties that I have looked at have quite a number of the nails backed out as much as 3". Most of this guttering is attached to 6" pine facia.

In my evulation of the damage my reccomendation is to remove and replace the gutters and replace ALL of the facia. My reasoning is that when the nail backs out, the nail hole has elongated, and the nail will not re-seat when just "driven back into the existing hole". This will be expecially true where the nail went through the facia only and not into a rafter tail. I can tell you that the supervisiors with the roofing company are looking at me crosseyed on this subject. At this point I HAVE NOT had the opportunity to present this to a carrier's adjuster.

Has any one run into this in the field as either thier recomendation, or a recomendation presented by the roofing company??

Note this determination is NOT applied to the newer style of installation utilizing clips and screws into the facia.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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Ol' Ghost
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11/13/2009 9:09 AM

Jim, you are crossing a line in the sand that, in your current capacity, should not be crossed. As a roofing contractor saleman, your job function is limited to just those items your company sells. It is not your place to wander all about scoping the bird baths, the air conditioner condensor dents, or the fogged up double pane windows. When and if you ever get to be a real adjuster, then you can do it. The same goes for the nail holes in the fascia.

Ol' Ghost

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BobH
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11/13/2009 11:14 AM
In my evulation of the damage my reccomendation is to remove and replace the gutters and replace ALL of the facia.

Gutter nails "back out" all the time, this is a common maintenance item. A reasonable homeowner would get some of the "threaded screw" type gutter nails made to remedy this common problem.

http://www.gutterworks.com/gutterscrews.html

http://doitbest.com/Gutter+connecto....dib 

I just did this at my elderly fathers house. Zero wind, and he had 6 nails backed out 2 to 3 inches in various places.

When a gutter has been subjected to enough wind to back out the nails, that gutter is gonna be "hanging" out of place, not sitting right where it belongs.

Bob H
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Bobabooey
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11/13/2009 4:41 PM
Quote from Moco, "And the last thing i always consider is, if this was my home and policy what would i consider reasonable and fair." This quote should be the credo that ALL adjusters and roof salesmen work under. When I look at a property, as a salesman, I look for every item of damage that could be related to the event. I AM NOT playing santa claus, I am just looking to return the property to the pre-event condition. When I do get an assignment as an adjuster, my inspection of a property will still be to find every item that can be attributed to the event at hand.

JD, you will learn that this is a weird industry. I think you are looking for black and white. A lot of this business is gray. A whole lot.
Most policies say something to the effect of PERILS INSURED AGAINST WINDSTORM, HURRICANE, AND HAIL. It says nothing about wind lift, granule loss, repairability, nothing. It says they insure against wind and hail. Hail causes granule loss, no matter how big. So does rain, so does walking on the roof.

If it hails pea sized on a 20 year old comp roof and the hail knocks off a bunch of granules. Do we owe them a new roof? According to the policy we do. There is no way to put the granules back on. It is technically damaged. All of that stuff about we dont consider granule loss hail damage is not in the policy. Are you going to buy them a new roof? No, there are no marks.

I have looked at hail damaged roofs with 2 different reinspectors from the same company. One guy bought everything, other guy bought nothing. One guy totaled the roofs, other guy bought individual slopes. Who is right? There is no right. HAAG has their opinions, every adjuster has their opinion, every roofer has their opinion. Some shingles are soft some are hard. Some show damage better, some don't. etc etc I have worked with engineers on all kinds of claims. They are just giving an educated guess. They don't know either.

You will also learn that most insurance companies will eventually pay for the roof if the homeowner keeps fighting it. They don't want to take it to court. You will deny many roofs that are old with absolutely no damage. You will never know it, but the insurance company will buy it if the home owner keeps fighting it. I have a buddy that is a supervisor at one of the big 3. He told me they have not brought a claim to court in almost 8 years. They sure as hell are not going to bring a roof claim to court.

It is a weird business.
Imagine this. You can't hardly get a cell phone store to give you a free cell phone that costs them $20 even if you have been a loyal customer for years. That is how strict most companies are.

We work in a business where they will give you (someone they have never met, someone that could be a drug addict, someone that could be crazy or whatever, someone who they will probably never talk to, someone that could have never ever set foot on a roof) they give you the authority to go out and in one day approve 10 claims for $50,000 a piece. How crazy is that? You basically have the ability to write half a million dollar check in one day and they dont even know who you are. It is a weird and crazy business.
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jdacree
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11/13/2009 8:32 PM
Ol Ghost, in my description of myself as a roofing salesman I have mislead you. The organization that I work for is a repair/restoration company. The have and do work on all damages to a property. Sorry about the confusion. Also in my pesent position I am up here learning how to scope a COMPLETE claim. If I were to only look at roofs for example, when I got called out on an assignment, you senior people would be justified in the quote "look at that D&$% Roofing Guy, he completly missed etc, etc. As was mentioned some of the things I look for are making my people crosseyed, hope they do not run into a wall while afflicted. In this training excerise, I am going to look for each and every thing I can find.

Bob H thank you for the information. As you mentioned there are ways to re-secure the nails that many of the tradesmen know of (one nice trick is to pull the nail ,glue up a bunch of toothpicks,and stick them in the hole. This reduces the size of the hole and the nail will grip). I also have fixed property such as this for my relatives and friends, because if it was not fixed at some point it will fall off of the house. The base question is in a situtation where strong wind, and flying debris has moved, dented and left the fastners loose. Is this a claim??

Bobabooey your black/whiteis is correct in that in a certain situtation, I am looking for a standard (which defines the grey) that is applied by the top 5%. In most industries there are standards and there arethe implied standards that the experienced hands know are used. You can usually tell the more experienced people by how the interpertation of the "standard" is applied and how many of the top 5% will apply that the same way. You have provided an example with your comment about granule loss being insured. I am in agreement with that interpertation, because there is no evidience that the roof has 2, 5 10, or 50% granuale loss from the event, UNLESS the savy homeowner has photographed gutters 1/2 full of granuals, or has photographed bare ground or concrete areas that are completly covered in granuales. In most cases when we first look at a marginal condition we will ask the homeowner, "was that like that before?". In the case above the homeowner, being savvier than most if in fact he has not scooped up all of the granule in the neighborhood to put into his gutter, has noticed a difference in his property. Granted not many homeowners will go to that level of inspection. Your comment about looking at a roof with two people one will buy the other will not remindes me a lot of the depreciation quandry. You have 2 families living side by side in the exact same house, with the exact same carpet, installed by the exact same installer at the exact same time. One family is elderly and has no pets, the other family has 3 children in the pre=teen to yound teen age, with 2 indoor dogs. In a water event is the depreciation for each house on the carpert the same?? I do not think that the experienced adjuster will depreciate them the same base on expected service life being longer for the elderly couple. This is a definition of grey that the experienced hand uses in interpertation of the applied standard.

Folks I am a newbie. Freely admitted. I read, post, and am starting to take positions on issues frmm the information gained. I will continue to do the same in an effort to glean from the BEST, the interpertations used to smooth the black and white to a useable grey. I do not mean to be offensive, if I have been. I do not mean to ask offensive questions if I have done so. My entire intent is to LEARN. Again thanks for the interest and the input by some of the most experienced on this forum.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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