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Last Post 01/17/2008 2:15 PM by  MMELLC
Shingle Guage?
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weadjust
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12/26/2007 8:55 PM

    I recieved an assignment to inspect a claim with wind damage to the shingles. The examiner requested photos of the shingles with a shingle gauge. I have been an adjuster for 17 years and have never heard of a shingle gauge. A google seach shows Haag engineering sales a shingle gauge.  Link http://haageducation.com/pub_view.a...160; 

    This is new to me. Anybody else getting requests for photos of shingles using a shingle gauge?

    HuskerCat
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    12/26/2007 9:35 PM

    Welcome to the world of a trainee examiner assigning you a file.  I'd guess they just went through a training class and received one of those guages as part of the course.  The nice thing is they double as ball mark repair tool if you hit a nice high wedge onto a soft green.   You should call and find out if they want a photo with a pitch guage too.

    Gale Hawkins
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    12/26/2007 9:45 PM
    I have watched the movie. They clearly state it is an estimating tool because there are singles that do not work with the gauge. The cool part is you just break off a corner to a tab if you have trouble determining if it is composition or fiberglass.
    weadjust
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    12/26/2007 9:47 PM
    Thanks, The assignment did come from an examiner whose name I did not recognize. So he probably just finished the training class. Another hint that he is new is that he is working on 12/26. Sad thing about it is the claim is for a double wide mobile home roof, so we know the age of the roof looking at the year model of the risk. I think that information would most likely provide a better indication of the age of the roof vs a shingle gauge.
    HuskerCat
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    12/26/2007 10:26 PM

    Just watched the link myself.  That guage is different than the one that landed on my desk several years ago from a forgotten source.  It was like a 2-tined fork minus the long handle, with a tapered & calibrated space between the 2 tines.  Served the same purpose as this one shown on the Haag video, but much more functional repairing the ball marks than the Haag model appears to be. 

    Gale Hawkins
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    12/26/2007 10:29 PM
    And you expected a muti-functional tool for only $20? :)
    Spudder
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    12/27/2007 11:22 AM

    You can pick up a shingle gauage from this location  http://www.toolexperts.com/SG2345.html  the cost is under $ 50, everybody wants something to fall on  so they don't have to take the responsibility. I had a roofing company for over 25 years and never used one 

    DAVIDR
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    12/28/2007 4:20 PM
    I've used one for years and never had to revise an estimate for a shingle. That photo of the gauge on the shingle carries alot of weight, for what ever reason.
    I also take a photo with pitch gauge on the slope, showing the pitch. Once again I've never had to revise an estimate for a steep charge. The old saying "A
    photo says a thousand words" does have merit. Also "It's their world, we're just in it".
    Spudder
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    12/28/2007 5:41 PM

    DavidR, As a contractor I never had to use one most folks wanted to change their roofing system so I did, as an adjuster I use the guage and also a tape and level which shows the pitch of the roof design. I do agree with you a picture is worth a 1000 words and if the house needs to know if the deck is a walkable or not is allright with me, later

    HuskerCat
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    12/28/2007 6:50 PM

    Both of the above statements are correct, particularly "a picture is worth a thousand words".   But any oldtimer (or midtimer for that matter) can tell you that the shingle guage has no real purpose in the storm loss adjusting world.  It is, as advertised, a warranty tool.  When roofs are damaged by hail or windstorms of significant degree, I have not seen a warranty yet that covers the loss on asphalt/comp products that you can measure with the guage.  Other roofing systems, yes, a warranty might come into effect on hail/wind.  The tool will show the thickness/weight of the shingle if the examiner knows what he is looking at, but it should also be obvious without the guage.  That is, to an examiner that has ever actually been on a roof.

    The risk photo as always required will adequately show if the roof is a walk-on, or a 6/12 or steeper.  But the problem exists that the inside examiners nowadays may not have any field experience whatsoever.   If they require & request the pitch guage and shingle guage, I guess we just have to humor them and trust that they understand what it is that they are asking for and why.  Do you think they would really have any reason to request a reinspection if the pitch guage photo was missing, but the risk photo depicted a slope of of 6/12 or greater?  

    I think the majority of field adjusters with any time under their belt will tell you they have never used either guage, and never had a file turned back because of the lack of them either.

    This is not a matter of being stubborn...it's just common sense.  Maybe that doesn't matter anymore.  

    Medulus
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    12/28/2007 7:41 PM
    I got mine free from Haag Engineering when I ordered their two roof books. I've used it a couple times to measure shingles and determine the difference between a 25 or 30 year shingle, especially when the insured was in disagreement with my opinion on the type of shingle. It's a handy tool, but certainly not worth buying at 20 dollars. Like I said, I got mine free.
    Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

    "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
    Spudder
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    12/28/2007 9:35 PM
    OSHA requires a safety harness and a toe board along with a edge line on roofs over 9/12 when doing your estimates do you allow for these.?

    Clean up is an important function in a reroof job, do you allow for clean up and plant protection ?
    DAVIDR
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    12/29/2007 8:42 AM
    Spudder, Good post ! Here's my point, as we know some file examiners may never have done field inspections. Some may even be
    leery because a prior IA accidentally selected a 40 year instead of a 30 year, or even a 9/12 and over steep charge instead of a 7/12
    to 9/12. But "seeing is believing". thus the value "TO ME" of those two photos, one with the shingle gauge and one with the pitch
    gauge.

    I'll go a step further. Those little gauges have paid for themselves many times over ! When I can support it with a photo, I put all the
    adds the job would require, and never get a questioning phone call. If I have a steep enough two story, besides the harnesses, I can
    justify things like a debris chute, scissor lift,ect, and not get questioned. Those phone calls asking you why you did this or that take time,
    and time is money.

    At the same time, I'm not perfect. I had a roof claim recently, a very modest home. First glance 20 year shingles, the gauge showed 25
    year shingles. Besides making the insured whole on the front end, it bumped my fee, and most likely saved me supplement on the back end.

    OSHA does require alot of safety items to protect the worker. Unfortunately SOMETIMES even though these items were put on the estimate,
    those dollars don't seem to be used for what they were intended. I've yet to see a worker wear a Haz-Mat suit and respirator while tearing off
    a asbestos roof. As and adjuster and a man, that has no influence on me ,as an adjuster making the appropriate allowances. My father was
    a Commercial GC, I watched that cancer take its toll. He never ask someone to do something he would not do, unfortunately OSHA did not know
    about asbestos in those days.

    Sorry for getting off track. But for the record, Its extremely rare that I have issues with the homeowner, contractor or the file examiner.
    Spudder
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    12/29/2007 11:16 AM

    David, You sound like an adjuster that know what they are doing, those are getting hard to find lol, have you ever seen a 15 year, 25 yr and 40 yr straight asphalt shingle they quit making them in the 70's when Owens Corning went into the shingle making business when they bought out the old Fry Shingle co. Now those shingles have a tendency to swell and that would show something that is not on the gauge lol but if you tear a piece of a damaged shingle you will see there is no fiberglass mat in the composition, unless you run into a old shingle around 37 years old you won't find a asphalt shingle lol. During the Hurricanes of 2004 and 2005 I was doing a lot of desk adjusting for some General Contractors out of 100 estimates that I checked there were probably 100 supplements written, all for the lack of construction knowledge, I still find that today with the contractors that I work with however it looks like it is getting better, until this morning when I ran across a estimate from a large insurer and it looks like it was estimated by a in house adjuster. They had use the current Xactimate price list, but changed prices on the list for their benefit, I crossed checked the estimate for base charges and changed around some of their applications, anyway the wind up was there is a difference of 5,000 between their estimate and the 3 different types that I worked on. I'm going to call them tomorrow and find out what they are doing, it doesn't seem ethical to use someone’s name and price list then change the price list figures. Let me ask you a question when doing a large job roofing siding, windows shutters painting, at what point do you eliminate the base service charges, if you set the labor efficency on restoration, service remodel Xactimate 24 will automatically default to the necessary Base service charges unless you turn them off on the price list, this estimate has some items with base service charges and some with out, and they are large quantity items not min charges.My rule of thumb is to use Base service charges on small jobs like repairs&etc, but I'm always open for an adjustment  lol

     

    BobH
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    12/29/2007 12:30 PM
    Posted By Spudder on 12/29/2007 11:16 AM

    ...Let me ask you a question when doing a large job roofing siding, windows shutters painting, at what point do you eliminate the base service charges, if you set the labor efficiency on restoration, service remodel Xactimate 24 will automatically default to the necessary Base service charges unless you turn them off on the price list,

    You need to be careful how you get rid of BSC's, you need to set the price list properties to FACTOR IN the BSC's. That takes the couple hours labor to get to the site and so on, and distributes it to the unit costs so they rise slightly.  If you simply delete them, the unit cost is slightly too low (if BSC's were "broken out" then deleted).

    Or you break out the BSC's, and it shows up as pure labor, no materials.

    The answer to your question is that when a complete re-roof is being done, the BSC's should be factored in.  That is what the large carriers tell their adjusters to do.  Some large carriers set the entire estimate as "factored in" and that is OK, as long as the adjuster knows that if one of the trades has a very small part of the project that he may have to call out a Min Chg rather than just paint the small bathroom at 60 cents a Sf.  Or call out a separate labor entry and explain why - I do that all the time.

    The Xactimate help is rather cryptic on this point, but with Xact 24 you want to go to "real time training" and find the topic with this title:

    Labor Efficiency and Base Service Charges in Xactimate

    In order to understand how Base Service Charges work in Xactimate, you must also know how the Labor Efficiencies are set up in Xactimate. Xactimate uses base service charges for most price list labor categories. Base Service Charges help ensure that the unit price will cover these expenses for all jobs. When you print an estimate, Xactimate adds the amount of the base service charge for each labor category.

    Bob H
    HuskerCat
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    12/29/2007 1:13 PM
    Posted By Spudder on 12/29/2007 11:16 AM

    ...when I ran across a estimate from a large insurer and it looks like it was estimated by a in house adjuster. They had use the current Xactimate price list, but changed prices on the list for their benefit, ...

     

    I'm not sure if it's all that unusual to change some pricing, but generally to benefit the insured.  Have done it many times myself in the past when as a staffer we had established our own local roofing allowances, because the Xact pricing was too low.  This was in areas of modest population where Xact's data was apparently just not sufficient to come up with the correct price.  Another thing, and I trust this is still the case...Xact's price list can vary from one carrier to another, if a carrier has a custom program with Xact.   When I worked branch assist with an independent, and was also working with preferred contractor networks, my Xact estimate and the contractors' estimate always had different unit prices.  The contractors were using the Xact provided to them by the carrier they were signed up with, while mine was the generic.  For example, mine could show  $0.52 per sq ft paint, and theirs might show  $0.44 but they didn't have a problem with it.  I could compare a fire or water loss estimate and it was not unusual to see 75% of the line items with different unit costs...some high, some lower.  The geographical area and dates on the price list ID codes were identical, but part of the code was different I suppose to indentify the carrier.  How or why these different prices were arrived at for different carriers was never explained to me.   

    Spudder
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    12/29/2007 2:18 PM

    Bob, When I do an estimate I usually check out the size of the job, if it is over the min charge then I factor in the base service charges  if its a min charge then I use the base charge, on Xactimate 24 under the matrix section is the base charge section a dould click  the push the bullet that you want to use:  yes , do not apply , or factor in being in the contractor business for a bit I understand the methods of construction and all of the set p and other charges that occur on a job site

    BobH
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    12/29/2007 2:36 PM
    Perfect. Sounds like you are on top of it.

    Xactimate confused a lot of people when they introduced these BSC's around 2001, and to this day most people just view it as "fluff" or padding - but that was not their intent. As you say, if the trade is doing a lot of work, just "factor in" the BSC.

    I think this was Xactimate's way of trying to make software "think" for people, but it just complicated an already complex program.
    Bob H
    MMELLC
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    01/08/2008 12:01 PM

    Maybe I am missing something, but the shingle guage is not ment to determine the age of the shingle. The shingle guage is to determine what the life expectancy of the shingle was manufactured to be. It measures the thickness of the shingle. Many times the difference in thickness from a 25 -30 yr. shingle may be difficult to determine just by looking at it. What year the MH was built has no bearing on what a shingle guage was designed to do.

    SteveZ
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    01/09/2008 10:23 AM
    OooooWeeee !!! I got out the old Jiffy Pop popcorn and relaxed in the easy chair to view the video about this Magic Shingle Gauge. Heck, I might just order TEN of them to get the price break... Mardi Gras is coming really soon, and this looks like an EXCELLENT item to throw from the float. I hear they make great DIVOT REPAIR TOOLS on the golf course, and my neighbor (roofer of 34 years) said he got a FREE one from Owens-Corning. . . He uses it to open BEER CAN TABS. I think they would make excellent book marks, too.

    Gotta Gotta Gotta Get Some...
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