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Last Post 12/01/2009 10:33 PM by  RandyC
Unsealed Shingles
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FloridaBoy
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09/23/2009 12:09 PM

Some policies are worded ' repair or replace' at the carriers discretion. If the carrier elects to repair they will often guarantee the repair. Resealing the shingles, absent other peril related damage, is a proper repair. The insured is indemnified and the claim is adjusted.

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claims_ray
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09/23/2009 2:20 PM
How is the insurance company to guarantee the repair unless you use their preferred contractor and they have an agreement with the contractor? How will this work if the insured has a storm created opening policy? What if the non preferred contractor or homeowner uses an inadequate sealing compound?
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BobH
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09/23/2009 9:26 PM
Posted By claims_ray on 23 Sep 2009 02:20 PM 
What if the non preferred contractor or homeowner uses an inadequate sealing compound?

Keep in mind that a significant wind-event that TRULY blows shingles to the point that they are "lifted" and flapping around will show signs of creasing, tearing, fasteners pulled through, SOMETHING prior to the shingles actually flying off the roof.  Could just be a bad case of neighbor-itis.

 

Bob H
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BobH
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09/23/2009 9:30 PM
Posted By Roy Estes on 20 Sep 2009 03:28 PM
Posted By BennyBulger on 20 Sep 2009 11:58 AM
The check is in the mail.


Benny you sound like a real professional. You should meet my buddy "Ol Cletus". Good luck out there "Benny" ...... BTW Does anyone know where the archive forum on worm is?
 

Ah - yes - here it is.  Another reason to use the magical "search" feature:

Posted By Ray Hall on 27 Apr 2009 03:44 PM
... Today catastrophe adjuster have 3 brackets 1. worm 2. OK 3. very good. You must work hard to get out of bracket # 2

http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid/60/aff/41/aft/10757/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Bob H
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Mike Smith
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09/25/2009 5:33 PM
I know it is debated, but as Bob said, the most recent engineering reports I've seen show that wind strong enough to break a tab's seal, will not then just lift it a 1/4 inch and not bend it back or blow it off.

I've also heard mention of conflicting engineering studies that wind creates a vacuum on the back side of the roof, lifting tabs. To me, that doesn't make sense.
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MIKE C
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09/25/2009 5:37 PM

I haven't read all the replies in this thread, so advance apologies if this info is already stated.

I'm staff with a pretty major carrier, probably the best known name in insurance in the world.  Not necessarily p & c brand recognition, but just the same.

Anyway, they take a pretty firm stance on defining wind dmg to shingle tabs as tears and creases.  If its not missing, torn or creased then it isn't wind damaged.  This position was developed based on the Haag Engineering standard.

I deny unsealed tab claims constantly.  There is some logic to it.  For example, the original post about the storm in CO.  If 100 mph winds blow against a roof and unseal the tabs, will the wind then have mercy on the tab and move on to another roof to wreak havoc?  No, once unsealed that tab is going to continue to be lifted and pushed back.  Naturally this is going to crease it or even tear it.  I understand there are counterarguments to this and there are variables.  One thing I appreciate is having an employer with the nuts to define a position and stand by it.

 

 

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Ray Hall
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09/25/2009 7:01 PM

Good post Mike. That's the way it has always been, if its damaged pay for it, movment does not mean damage IF IT IS NOT VISABLE.

I have seen catastrophe adjusters stand up and make this statement at a 150 adjuster meeting, " thats not the way I was trained" and some reginal vice president of claims with 30 years will say to the loud mouth from Texas. Well, you were just trained wrong"; whays your name. A whole lot of that going on in the cat adjusting world.

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Tom Toll
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09/26/2009 9:24 AM
Posted By Mike Smith on 25 Sep 2009 05:33 PM
I know it is debated, but as Bob said, the most recent engineering reports I've seen show that wind strong enough to break a tab's seal, will not then just lift it a 1/4 inch and not bend it back or blow it off.

I've also heard mention of conflicting engineering studies that wind creates a vacuum on the back side of the roof, lifting tabs. To me, that doesn't make sense.


When high velocity wind hits a slope, the ridge creates wind turbulence, or lift. The lift is at the peak and two to three feet down on the opposite slope. A roof can be damaged by turbulent winds, not just direct wind.

Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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insprojohn
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11/12/2009 3:35 PM

I would add wear and tear (which is another form of maintenance but may explin why the pipe that brust is also not paid for) other than that minor addition you are awesome and dead on target!

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insprojohn
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11/12/2009 3:39 PM

Tom,

What is your reference source for this information?  Since I plan to quote your source if I ever come across this situation in the future.


When high velocity wind hits a slope, the ridge creates wind turbulence, or lift. The lift is at the peak and two to three feet down on the opposite slope. A roof can be damaged by turbulent winds, not just direct wind.

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insprojohn
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11/12/2009 3:57 PM
Well two Allstate adjusters and their roofer inspected a roof that I inspected. All of us including me were looking only for hail because hail was on our minds. 4 hailstorms came through this area and none of us including me even considered any other type of loss. So when there was not enough hail to buy the roof I was wondering where did I go wrong? So I went back with my one of my amigos to reinspect the roof with a rope, harness, and the most awesome $33 sofa cushion. We both looked for hail. My amigo kept telling me that this is an old roof that needed to be replaced. I told him that it does not matter what you or I think about the roof IF there is no storm damage it will not get paid for by the insurance company. There definitely were a few hail hits but not enough to buy the roof. All of a sudden my amigo starts finding wind damage due to a very large number 0ver 80 lifted shingle in a 3 sloped area. There were still 4 more slopes to check out but my opinion is that I will just wait until the reinspection to check out the other 4 slopes. As it is too much work for a "maybe" anyway. Plus that is a Steep 11/12 pitched roof and it is 3 stories. So I do not want to be on that roof more than I must. But amigo roofer was better than me, Allstate staff and their roofer at finding the damage. I guess because he did NOT have any pre-determined opinions. If any individual is to blame for the improper diagnoses it was my fault for just thinking hail damage. The 2 most important things I have learned is to: 1) Check to see IF there are 2 layers of shingles on the roof. The adjuster from GA Farm Bureau and me both missed that simple fact. My amigo roofer pointed it out to me. 2) Keep an open mind. DO not only go out looking for hail damage. Consider the possibility of wind damage too.
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claims_ray
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11/12/2009 4:01 PM
What is the wind damage? Have you read through these postings. Lifted/ Unsealed shingles are not wind damage.
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jdacree
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11/12/2009 7:41 PM
I was on a roof the other day, which was 4 pitch. The storm (wind/hail) came in from the northwest in effect hitting the roof at about a 45 degree angle. On the windward side of the roof were a lot of cedar/pine trees. The roof in question is a 3 tab 25 year roof. While on the roof I noted medium denting to the soft metal, and minor denting to the steel guttering on the windward side. Having noted this from the ground and roof level I felt sure that the shingle inspection would show hail marks, chipped edges, broken pieces etc. While having found some of that type of damage, there was not enough evidience in the test square(s) to sell a new roof. BUT during the inspection I did notice that all of the shingles, on the eindward side had a bulge in them that ran lengthwise left to right across the whole shingle. This bulge was noticible and hard to the touch so I decided to lift the shingle to see what was under there. I COULD NOT lift the edge of the shingle. All of the shingles on this roof had resealed very tight and well. None of the shingles show any evidience of creasing or cracking.

Due to the slope of the roof the bertoulli (spelling) effect is in effect. With the high winds experienced nearly every roof in the adjacent area had torn and missing shingles on the windward side and the first 4 to 5 courses on the off wind side. The off wind shingles also evidienced noticible lengthing of exposue and being "cocked out of plane" to the adjacent shingle.

My question is has anyone ever seen a situtation where the wind will lift fairly new shingles enough to allow debris to collect then reseal?? As less than 5 year old shingles there is still a fair amount of flexibility in the material. The sealing material is obviously still working, but IF there is debris under the shingle it was trapped while WET. In the long term would this not cause the same type of damage to the mat of the shingle, as happens when the homeowner allos leaves to collect on the roof in the vallies? As we all know when leaves sit on top of shingle long enough, and are allowed to colloect water the shingles fall apart.

Having noted this condition and the concerns for the validity of the roof to perform it's function is this a valid claim. Please let me hear from the group, for I am sure that someone has seen this before.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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claims_ray
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11/12/2009 7:47 PM
Is the damage you are refering to current or possible future damage?
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BobH
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11/12/2009 7:55 PM
...the wind will lift fairly new shingles enough to allow debris to collect then reseal??

Yes, I have seen wads of pine-needles under shingles, sometimes they re-seal with the stuff trapped under the shingle - but whenever I have seen that there was very obvious debris sticking out from the sides of the tabs (like it hits you in the face when you get on the roof, not subtle).

The off wind shingles also evidienced noticible lengthing of exposue and being "cocked out of plane" to the adjacent shingle.

That would mean that the fasteners were pulled and shingles allowed to "migrate". they can't stretch... so likely they were yanked free of the nail-heads.

Bob H
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moco
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11/12/2009 8:34 PM
Posted By jdacree on 12 Nov 2009 07:41 PM 
In the long term would this not cause the same type of damage to the mat of the shingle, as happens when the homeowner allos leaves to collect on the roof in the vallies? As we all know when leaves sit on top of shingle long enough, and are allowed to colloect water the shingles fall apart.


FYI, in the event you had this damage only on a roof (not the roof you mention) there would be applicable exclusions related to poor maintenance or neglect. I have seen this type of damage claimed to be wind related, but it was not the case. Same with a rotten tree and limb hanging over the roof, which suddenly falls and causes damage. If there are documented winds at the time of the limb falling then there is a gray area and you really could not say if it fell from rot or winds, or both. But wind peril is covered so i would allow. But if my weather report along with speaking with neighbors indicate that winds strong winds were not the case i would lean toward failure to maintain the tree as the cause of loss and recommend no payment toward the loss.
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jdacree
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11/13/2009 12:06 AM
Claims ray your question is my question. As described do we file a claim now as a wind/hail, or try to file later and get a lack of maintenance?

Bob H, no I did not see exposed debris at the edges. I did not think to look, but the roof in question has had 7 months of weather, rain, and snow.

Moco, the winds at the time of the event were in the 50 to 70 MPH range at the time of the event. As stated above the "bulges are on the windward side of the roof.

My question is as an adjuster, even though I am now selling roofs. As a roof salesman I would try to sell trapped debris, which would mean, in the presence of the carrier's adjuster I would un-seal and lift a sample of shingles to see what is under them. BUT my question is as an adjuster. If we suspect damage that will not show untill later, in this case years later, what do we do? I feel strongly that the "bulge" has debris trapped under the shingles. If that is correct, then the roof is NOT IN THE CONDITION that it was before the event, and the service life of the roof has been degraded. If that is true then as an adjuster isit not my responsibility to accept the claim and return the roof to the pre-event condition, NO better, NO worse.
Jim Acree Stupidity is the art of not trying to learn Ignorance is the lack of opportunity to learn I am ignorant
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BobH
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11/13/2009 11:05 AM
If we suspect damage that will not show until later, in this case years later, what do we do? I feel strongly that the "bulge" has debris trapped under the shingles.

If shingles have a significant amount of garbage under the shingles that appears to be related to the DOL, that is damage. The issue about future damage that "does not show up until later" is not relevant.

We have to use common sense. I have seen adjuster photos showing 2 pine-needles under a shingle and they total the slope (I am serious).

What you are describing is something obvious you can see as you walk the roof (bulge in shingle).

And the tabs were down very tight, you should have had a putty knife to see what was going on under the shingle, because it was already damaged (I am not talking about walking around a roof un-sealing tabs, I am talking about doing one of them so you don't wonder if there is junk under them or not)

You described pine trees near the slope, and for what it's worth that is what I have seen in cases where significant junk is trapped under the tabs.  The only other thing it could have been is "cupping" or "clawing" shingles that are deteriorating in such a manner that it looks like something is under it.  Again, the putty knife on a single tab would have clarified it for you.

Bob H
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moco
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11/13/2009 11:45 AM
The bulge could simply be the result of roof sheathing lifting due to the nails backing out over time (nails missed rafters etc), or there could be a ventilation problem that has contributed to this. If winds would have contributed to the bulge, well there should be missing or extremely torn shingles about the area.

And to add to what Bob qouted above, who knows what will happen in the future... you CANNOT assume anything. Debris under shingles does not neccesarily mean that shingles will not reseal. Depends on what type, and amount of debris.
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Ray Hall
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11/13/2009 12:07 PM

Jim Take some photos and a putty knife next time you see this bulge. I don,t ever recall seeing this .

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