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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2004 : 19:34:16
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| From the number of times this subject has come up over a number of years is "change" still on the horizon or overhead or is it just "Ground Hog Day" all over again? |
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Catmandale
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 01:02:41
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Gale,
I think that your "Groundhog Day" analogy is not too far from true. The carriers, like the Bill Murray character are getting a little more up on the game with each "new" repeated day.
In the past, indemnity tended to rise when "outsiders" such as DRP contractors were allowed to run the henhouse, so the carriers would respond with a training/experienced adjuster cycle, and higher expense ratios.
While the cycle has been experienced/expensive/ trained adjusters vs inexperienced/replaceable/claim mutants, the playing field is changing due to external forces.
The carriers cannot rely on the old model of lifetime employment and loyalty..it's no longer a given (I'm not saying they didn't cause that themselves, but it is just a fact of life.)
The cost/return on investment is not to their liking. The cost of agressive adjusting (in order to bring indemnity into line, whatever that means)can be legal fees and slow closing claims.
So what to do...triage claims to the phone, to the contractor, to the appraiser, to the seasoned adjuster. Triage is not simple and often frustrating to the insured.
Yesterday is gone, and we need to adapt or move on.
By the way, having a contractor adjust the claim may add to indemnity dollars, which can be passed along to the insured in higher rates, while excessive expenses get absorbed by the carriers. Which do you think they prefer?
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"When we thought that we had all the answers,
suddenly all the questions changed."
Mario Benedetti (1920); Uruguayan writer.
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:29:09
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RV, I have to agree with you 100%, on this specific issue. I, by no means, have an advanced formal education, but learned years ago in the real working world; that you must learn to communicate properly with your spoken or written word and the presentation of that communication.
I did point this out once before in response to a person's post, of the type you mention; by suggesting spell check was a worthwhile option. However, that post was edited out by a moderator, who then edited the post I was referring to; making it more readable and understandable.
"We" are at fault for letting this degradation occur within the claims industry. Some of us let it happen and just stared as events allowed the pendulum to swing away from adjusting claims. |
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Jim Lakes
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:05:25
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R.V. Winkle & All:
R.V., I agree with almost all you have posted with your reasons why carriers are going to DPR programs and call centers with 10K authority. I posted about this very subject about 2 years ago in which I stated that we better be aware of the DPR programs. I said then and I still say that carriers are not our worst enemy; it is contractors that play adjuster. I know, I was one. It does not have anything to do with claims, coverage’s, or anything else except MONEY. As long as a contractor thinks they can be the FOX they will do anything to take our jobs. Carriers can raise their premiums based on severity, not on the cost of claims handling. So, if a contractor has 10K authority by providing an estimate that is 7,500 and adds some to it, the carrier can raise the premium, however they cannot raise the premium because of higher claims cost.
I take exception to one statement that you did make. You said, “The carriers and vendors do not care about you. Look behind you, the Leonard's graduates are lined up outside the door and around the block....they will if you won't” Please do not put all vendors in that barrel. NOT ALL vendors lower their fee schedules to ridiculous amounts to beat the competition. And I have always said that the way to stop this downgrading of fee schedules is the adjuster’s faults. If the vendors that low ball the fee schedules couldn’t find adjusters to work them they would either go out of business or raise them up. That is part of the reason you mentioned, that is wrong with our profession. When they can’t get “good adjusters” to work the cheap schedules they hire warm bodies and they produce a poor quality product, which reflects back on all of us. We are NOT in that barrel.
Respectfully Submitted,
Jim Lakes, RPA
VP RAC Catastrophe Services, Inc.
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Johnd
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:45:53
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| IF you are a GOOD, well QUALIFIED, honest adjuster that has a lot of moral terpitude, I suggest you call Mr. Lakes and try and "get on" with him, as he is NOT in that barrel and has an attitude that will keep him from EVER getting in that barrel. |
John Durham
sui cuique fingunt fortunam |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 19:26:51
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| Clayton, slow down, you are going to wear out your semi-colon key. |
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Jim Lakes
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 23:17:15
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R.V. Winkle,
Thank you for your response and no offense taken here. I just wanted to let you know that not all vendors are that way. And I agree with you totally that you have to do what you have to do to survive. I was referring more to when this trend started. Had we all refused to work for those at that time it would be hard for companies to find those good adjusters.
Thank You, John for your kind words. And by the way to everyone else, we have only worked with John on one occasion and found that he is a “Good, qualified and a true professional team player.” I hope that we will have that chance to work with him again, if I can talk him out of retirement. That is true of a lot of “good” adjusters that we have met at conventions and on this site like: Jim Flynt, Russ Doe, Russ Lott, Wayne Fortune and others. Jim Flynt is one of the most knowledgeable adjusters about policy that I have ever known. There are a lot of “GOOD” adjusters out there and the people I mentioned and others are true professionals and are a credit to our profession.
R.V., trust me I wish we had the work to keep all good adjuster’s working and we are trying very hard to work with carriers that are more interested in a quality product than they are a low fee schedule. There ARE carriers out there that do and we work with several of them.
As far as posting our fee schedule, I do not believe that that is in our best interest to do so because some of those vendors that you were referring to would take it and use it against us and I know you know what I mean. I will leave it up to you to contact either myself or one of the adjusters listed above to see that we work on a schedule that is fair to the adjuster and RAC.
Respectfully Submitted,
Jim Lakes, RPA
VP RAC Catastrophe Services, Inc.
513.894.2000
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whatco
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 11:46:20
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For what good it will do, count me in too! This used to be a good “profession” to be in many years ago. Then one day it produced enough adjusters to be considered “a dime a dozen”. But then things changed for the better for carriers by discovering “national independents” and adjusters then quickly became “a penny a dozen”. With the expansion of the national independents, came competition for fee schedule charges, “new adjuster” training schools to help flood the market, and now (whether they will admit it or not) a push to commit fraud in order to process more closed claims.
I mean who is actually climbing, inspecting, diagramming, and photographing, 10-15 roof claims per day on 2 & 3 story roofs with 9-12 pitch slopes scattered around town then closing them all that same night after completing all the necessary paperwork? Especially when they only have a 1 story ladder? It makes me sick to think that there are those of us who are attempting to do the job the old way (taking the required time to do the job right and legally), then feeling forced to perform “ladder pulls” just to fall from the roof to break legs, arms, backs, etc., or even lose their lives. And for what? A highly reduced fee schedule? (I personally quit with the ladder pulls a long time ago.)
Interestingly, I was on a storm last year where my competition was a “newly schooled” professional adjuster (1st time out from being a waitress), who showed up with an older computer that would not run Xactimate, in a station wagon and had no ladder. And that competition was called well before me. Guess the national I/A's making side money by processing "new recruits" have to provide them with our jobs so they don't get into trouble.
It is kind of insulting that the "national independents" are taking about 30% to 40% or our hard earned money to make a few phone calls and send a few guys out to try and find things wrong with our work. Now they are trying to cut us out almost all together. Fortunately for them, they still get their fee percentages, right?
Yeppers, I have felt for many years that the adjusting profession should have some kind of organization to protect the “older” and/or “more experienced” workers. Hey, take just a few good CATS where the majority of adjusters refused to show up. Wonder how long would it take the carriers to “apologize” after the State Insurance Commissioners and attorneys blasted them out of the water for violating policy guidelines requiring claims to be settled within a certain timeframe????????? Wonder if the fee schedules would go back up?
Just hope that CCar’s idea of fee bill comparisons would not have an adverse affect where carriers began “lowering” their schedules to match the “lowest” ones.[:(]
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trader
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 15:51:05
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Why would any adjuster go to work for a company that requires the adjuster to have E & O coverage.
Will only pay you when they get paid. Will not advance you $1,000. to $3,000. direct deposited the day of deployment... yea I know you need the $$$. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 16:31:54
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Yes RV, it is a puzzling question; the "why" about a lot of the current issues that negatively affect the well being of a trained and experienced adjuster in the cat claims niche. But, I'll bet you a box of Krispy Cremes, that the next typical storm deployment will not see any vendor short of their desired level of manpower. And yet another box of Krispy Cremes, that these forums will fill up again after that 'next typical storm deployment', with a new batch of the poison that was evident post-Isabel.
This $20.00 coming out of the ICA fee schedules, where ICA can not convince a carrier to let them have a $20.00 surcharge as an administrative fee; really is only worse in visual appearance than other similar practices in place by other vendors.
As you all know most fee schedules have stagnated for years, if not fallen in tangible value; let alone plummeted against other inflationary costs. But, a large segment of the vendors have not stood pat and tolerated those flat lined fee schedules. The vendors have gone out to the carriers and secured for themselves an "admin fee", or a "file set up fee", or an "office expense fee", etc; from $15.00 to $39.50 per file, that the adjuster has no share in. These surcharge vendor numbers are only larger if the file is handled as a T&E billing.
I'm confused how a vendor can not convince a carrier that the fee schedule should increase, but that vendor can convince the carrier that the vendor solely needs more revenue and are allowed to capture that per file with a $15.00 to $39.50 per file surcharge.
All ICA is doing / saying is that 'I'm damn well going to get another $20.00 per file (costing the adjuster 60% or $12.00), whether I get it from the carrier as a surcharged admin fee or from the adjuster by carving $20.00 of the fee to the vendor plate'. It is a 'more in your face' move, but again no different than any other vendor that did not or does not secure increases in the actual fee schedule; for the benefit of both the adjuster and the vendor, but manages to secure a personal increase for their corporate coffers only.
Anyone who thinks that the vendor is your "partner", or is your ally; they are wrong, and still don't see the big picture.
If your vendor thinks so much of you and covets you in their specific stable, why haven't they got more money for you in the form of increased fees? There was money in the 'carrier well' over the last few years, as is evidenced in the increasing presence of vendor only retained surcharges to otherwise stagnant or declining fee schedules.
I may have been slapped with a label as an "armchair quarterback", but I have spent over 30 years in the claims industry, on both sides of the desk, and on both sides of the fee schedule. Economically I have no interest in pursuing work in the cat claims niche, and I don't know why a trained and experienced adjuster would today given the business environment of that niche today.
I'm pursuing this survey / comparison project just as a personal interest project, hoping in a small way to give something back to the people in the industry, and hoping that it may help to empower the independent business people in this niche.
However RV, most times I sense that if people are in fact listening to what you and others have to say on the current trends and factors affecting their niche; it is not sinking in or they are not making choices based on what is put on a plate in front of them.
It still boils down to one or more of the following that permeates this community -
(a) ya, I know, but there is not a damn thing I can do about it
(b) won't bother me directly for a while yet, I'll ride it as long as I can
(c) suits me fine, I'm the new breed, don't have to know much about insurance or what an adjustment is
(d) this is all crap, the old fool is just trying to incite us all about no big deal
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trader
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 17:41:27
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| Clayton that belongs in your top five post, and CADDO'S top 10%. |
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Johnd
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 18:26:00
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| Clayton, to tell the truth, I would be afraid to look at an actual survey that had the four (a,b,c,d) questions you presented above. Maybe you could edit in a 5th question (e); "I would be happy to help a vendor by giving up $30 of my fees on each file." |
John Durham
sui cuique fingunt fortunam |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 20:41:45
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I do think it is useful for the audience to know and be aware of the hidden fees which are paid to the vendors to the exclusion of the adjuster.
However, having said that, this really is nothing new, and many if not most of the major national vendors have been doing this for years, whether known by the adjusters or not. As someone mentioned, it is especially all the more true with vendors handling daily claims.
I rather suspect, that there are all kinds of hidden rebates, incentives, and kickbacks thrown to the vendors that cat adjusters simply have no clue about. The informed rumor mill is rift with muchos examples.
In any event, I do not mean to let these comments deter from this discussion and what is useful information needed to be known by those who would know before they go. |
Edited by - JimF on 03/18/2004 20:43:27 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 20:55:18
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One last question for the audience.
What If:
What if the vendor is distributing one fee schedule to their adjusters purporting to be the fee schedule for a particular carrier ABC Insurance Company, when in fact, the "real fee schedule" with ABC is actually higher. Thus the adjuster would be getting paid X% of a bogus schedule and the vendor is collecting service billings based on the "real" fee schedule?
Does anyone here think that might actually happen?
Mmmmmmm........interesting question. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 21:05:03
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Ok Ghostbuster.
Now we have a winner.
Give R.V. First Prize.
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Edited by - JimF on 03/19/2004 08:38:59 |
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Change on the horizon
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