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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2004 : 16:58:08
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I think what Jim is saying is why do I want to pay a guy 20% more to call a roofer and hire him to do the job when I can pick up the phone and call a roofer and hire him myself for free?
If there are 10 roofers in town and they are willing to do a job for $5000 why should the carrier be on the hook for $6000 just to have you call the guy and hire him? The carrier only owes what is fair and reasonable. If the job can get done for $5000 that is all that is owed. YOU are not necessary in this transaction.
I'm not discounting the necessity of a GC in a big job, but for a roof job it is absolute nonsense. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 17:10:20
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Reco Man,
Call the TDI with your complaints. We cannot help you here. Please read the previous archived posts on why O&P is included in the roofing prices. See prior rulings for DOI in TX. This issue was settled years ago.
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Edited by - AllCatMan on 01/13/2004 22:41:24 |
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jlombardo
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 17:35:42
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| OOOOOOH CATMANAGER, You do have a way with words, you silver tongued devil...... |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 19:34:10
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| I don't want him to go away, I just want him explain his viewpoint in a simpler fashion. It's been awhile since we had a good shouting session. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 19:53:59
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| Well Ok, but can't we come up with a better topic? Roofing O&P is getting old |
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odenspike
3 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 21:01:28
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| I worked a lot of claims for a carrier this summer in west texas and they wouldnt allow me to include tax on their estimates. And no OP even on 3 or more trades. First time I ever had somebody not even allow for sales tax. |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 21:12:39
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| O & P and tax can bump the adjuster fee to the next level. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2004 : 21:50:13
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| I agree. Unfortunately, since we have been relegated to simple inspectors without settlement authority, we can no longer "adjust" anything. Welcome to the new world of roofing sa....I mean adjusting |
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TomS
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 08:02:12
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WELL, WHAT A TOPIC AND "FRIENDLY" DISCUSSION.
I HAVE FOUND IN TEXAS, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN HOUSTON AND OLE WEST TEX LUBBOCK, THAT THE ROOFING INDUSTRY SEEMS TO DO THE FOLLOWING;FIRST THEY LEAVE HOME AND TRAVEL TO CAT SITE AS DO CAT ADJUSTERS, BUY A ON GOING SMALL, IN THE YELLOW PAGES BUSINESS (OR OFFER XX$ PER SQ TO D.B.A) THEN GO TO LOCAL WATERING HOLES WHERE ADJUSTERS HANG OUT AND PASS OUT FRESH NEW BUSINESS CARDS TO ADJUSTERS AND ADVISE THEY ARE PREFERED CONTRACTORS FOR ALL CARRIERS IN THE AREA. OR DIDN'T I MEET YOU IN ST. LOUIS HAIL STORM????
1) SELL ROOF (PUT SIGN IN YARD)
2) SEND ROOFERS (FROM SOMEWHERE SOUTH)
3) PAY ROOFERS 35-55 FOR TAKE-OFF AND PUT ON
4) CHARGE INSURED 95-150++++)WHATEVER CARRIER RATES ARE
5) SUPPLEMENT CLAIM FOR O & P
6} RECIEVE CHECK/CHECKS AND RUN BACK TO THEIR HOME TOWN IN A HUM-VEE
ROOFERS MAKE THE HELL OUT OF MONEY BY BRINGING CREWS IN TO DO THE WORK AND PAYING A VARIETY OF PRICES TO OFF AND ON SHINGLES THE PRICE INCLUDES THE DUMPS AND ALL OTHER ITEMS, STEEP, HIGH, 2 LAYERS ETC.
WHEN WE ARE OFFERED A ROOF SALESMAN JOB, THE PAY IS EXPLAINED OF HOW YOU CAN MAKE 50% OF BOTTOM LINE (NET) OR FLAT 10% AND UP OF GROSS. NOW CALCULATE AN AVERAGE ROOF OF SAY 5000.00 WITH 10% COMMISSION OR 500.00 AND DO 15 OF THEM A WEEK INSTEAD OF 150 CLAIMS IN 30 DAYS AT 70% of 200 bucks. THE ROOFING BUSINESS ON THE WHOLE IS VERY PROFITABLE,WITHOUT ANY O & P, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. AS FAR AS A G.C. GOES, YES ON O&P DEPENDING ON JOB AS WE ALWAYS DO WHEN DOING OUR APPRAISAL. I HOPE |
Edited by - TomS on 01/14/2004 08:06:15 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 08:58:50
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If that be the case, why, oh, why do so many roofers want to be storm troopers?
Don't they realize that the grass on our side of the fence is less greener and filled with grass burrs and loco weed? |
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danguyer
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 09:29:05
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I agree with almost all of you. One of the first things you do after arriving in an area is find out what the going rate is for various repairs. That is what you pay. Inform the insured that here is a list of contractors that will do the repairs for this price. If you elect to use someone who exceeds this price you pay the additional amount. The key is to get a contractor to agree to your prices. If not, you don't have a leg to stand on.
I had a claim a cpuple of years ago where I had to replace a carpeting in the entire basement
caused by a freezing loss. The insured had three estimates that ranged from $8,700-9,000. I found a carpet place that could replace the EXACT SAME carpet for $7,200. I advised the insured up front that this is the amount that would be paid less deductible. They paid the excess $1,700. They didn't have a leg to stand on.
The same holds true for any construction repair. Replace with like, kind and quality. It is easy to see who is price gouging.
O & P is not an issue for roofing. Find out the price per square and unit costs, get it agreed and you're done. |
Dan Guyer |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2004 : 09:31:00
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It is a snowy blowy quiet morning in snow valley of this here winter wonderland, as I try to read Recon Man's posts. Even though it is a rehash of a too often repeated theme, I still can't understand the man.
Has anyone seen the movie Bruce Almighty? It was on the satellite the other night. Jim (the made good crazy Toronto Canuck boy) Carey, has lost the open anchor job at the TV network where he worked, and been vested with God like powers as he hit the bottom of a pit in his life.
During one segment of his misuse of those powers, while the new anchor is reporting the 6.oo PM news, 'Bruce' alters the speech and words of the new news anchor, even though the tele-prompter displayed the logical and proper news. This event, and the resulting blather from the news anchor, reminds me Recon Man's attempt to articulate whatever it is he is trying to sell.
The concluding sentence from the new news anchor, before he was cut from 'air', went like this; " .... sjent ndjft djdeotky sfluoty shetchy alskdhri ..... caki poo poo."
At least Lennie The Roofer was an interesting read. |
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Reconstruction Man
124 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2004 : 13:39:37
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--Ghostbuster
Perhaps wearing some eye glasses that construction business investors wear would help. [Kidding]
Sentence syntax "shortcuts" help to keep [point making] brief.
--ChuckDeaton
Our personal business model follows historically provable
construction industry business norms that allow for a sound / sustainable business model. Over the years, we have watched many "competitors" ignore those norms, and suffer inevitable consequences.
Contractors / insurers / adjusters, good and bad, have ready access to those sound business norms spelled out in meticulously assembled "time and materials" research data, that, properly used [vs. ignored], helps establish [union or open shop] construction business investment processes, and the inherent cost
factors woven into those processes.
We are certain all here will agree to those facts, especially if they were once construction business owners or project estimators, or accountants.
Construction professionals "OJT" is worked out every day in our restlessly fluid business enviroment. Both office and field staff never stop learning. Another level of "OJT", and
it's built-in overhead affecting our costs, is insurer estimates that fall short on scope and costs, and all the business
procedures needed to settle those issues.
100% of our [insurance related] client projects are now needing to be reinspected. It used to be 10-20% a couple of years back.
That said, OJT stops with our office or field staff, or subtrade associates, if our business relationship with them disolves.
--jlombardo
Our contact information is included in our first message.
Our fax. number is (956)-969-4421.
--JimF
Think of a General Construction business as a retailing entity.
We offer single trade items for purchase, or bundled multi-trade "items".
A customer comes to our "store" looking for a single specialty
item. We have that item in inventory, and so we add appropriate mark-up to cover all investment costs and [craftsmanship, warranties, etc.] risks. We know that our item is sound because our quality control measures [education / knowledge / follow through] reduce the chances of a poor purchase.
Do ones pay more for shopping with us? Maybe, maybe not. We remain competitive by negotiating with our "vendors" to help determine those cost issues.
Our sub-trades are our wholesellers...and also our investment risk. Mark-up is factored according to a given project's processes and risk factors. 20-25% mark-up and 11% / 10% O+P are investment marks to anticipate. If the project is large enough, and our [trusted] sub-trade pool is able to [financially], G.C. mark-up may be negotiable.
As for going down the street to see trade quality differences in roofing system installations, masonry / concrete work, painting work etc., etc. is easy to do...if looked for objectively after proper OJT has been instilled.
Composition roofing systems that are not square, [they still keep water out], but are all wavey looking, stucco work that looks like a kid was playing "stucco man", painting craftsmenship that leaves roller tracks or is obviously thin as a painting "contractor" trys to get double the coverage the gallon is designed to cover, sloppy sheetrock, ceiling, carpet, tile be , etc., etc., etc. work issues that devalue a property and create liability issues.
We have stayed in business by having a mix of both insurance related projects, and non-insurance related projects.
Non-insurance related projects do not carry the same time and labor burden that [improperly assessed / estimated] insurance related projects do. When a ["in-house"] construction project estimators' estimate does not properly account for all scope and costs, corrections are established in a fairly easy manner.
When an adjuster makes similar errors, the correction process becomes more complicated, especially when mature and
meaningful communication is needed, yet avoided.
Discontinued construction products, missed damage, lowballing,
policy language interpretation, appraisals processes, etc. etc., add to project time / expences.
We are not sure where all this forum is being considered across the US, but we are sure, from the content and context of
mass media news articles gathered from across the country, that the claims settlement process has taken a downward turn in regards to accounting for all damage, and regionally fluid costs.
We have had insurer representatives ask if reconstruction professionals charge more for "insurance work". Of we do, when appropriate. When business processes cost more to perform, the investment cost increases. Charging the same would be nonsensical risk taking.
A recently [Allstate] published brochure acknowledges those reconstruction business reality issues. We can fax. / e-mail that brochure to anyone interested in its content.
A P&L statement at the end of the year answers what was actually gained, or lost, in investment dollars, for any business that is not "cooking their books". Insurers included.
As you may know, insurance premiums are established to allow for sound business model practices. Imagine the risks insurers would take by estimating a premium's value any other way. Think about where insurers get their reconstruction data from [MS/B, etc.,] and then then think about where MS/B gets their data [sound construction businesses], and then finally think about the data producers [sound construction businesses].
Since the estimating data reflects known construction processes and their values, and a given [homeowner policy] premium contains those proccesses and values to be paid for, contractor or adjuster estimates testify how accurate of an accounting has initially been factored for a given project / claim settlement.
We've made many an offer recently for [certain] adjusters to sit down with us and our clients, laptop to laptop, IntegriClaim [MS/B]data in hand, to compare [component accountablity] alone.
So far, no takers. Hmmm...
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jlombardo
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2004 : 15:36:54
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| Recon Man...you never answered my request to give us all a little background about yourself...I do not think that listing a phone number in your first post and a fax number in your last post is much background info....The phone number is listed to ABC-RDP Roofing of 507 Yarborough Street, Weslaco, Texas 78596....That's A little north of the Mexican Border and Progresso, Isn't it, Mr. Poe??? So , how about it, inquiring minds want to know.......gives some background.... |
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Reconstruction Man
124 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2004 : 14:28:22
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--jlombardo
Background? We were kinda' hoping our keystrokes would spell out our background.
And for further thought...as may already be know, insurance premiums are formulated to cover sound business model practices...and those costs. Now then, think about where insurers get their reconstruction data from [MS/B, etc.,companies] and then then think about where MS/B gets their data [sound construction businesses], and then finally think about the data producers [sound construction business investors].
Now imagine [certain] adjusters come into town and meet those same sound construction business owners, and their lower priced "competition". The competition is uninsured and sloppy...a high risk business. The carrier / adjuster wants the lower priced contractor only...to "save money".
Does the insurer, who has already predetermined and charged for sound business practice cost coverage, in their clients insurance bill or "premium", only owe for getting the job "done"?
Or do they actually owe for a like and kind, apples for apples contractor the premium has prepaid?
They owe for what they precharged for. "Price shopping" alone, vs. "business model shopping", is unfair market manipulation, unfair price fixing, and unfair claims settlement practice 101. At least it seems that way...
Insurers cannot afford to circumvent low risk business model operation values inherent in full rebuilding processes and costs of indemnified properties. The inherent indemnity protection that low risk business models give to a homeowner, and an insurer, is obvious and is factored into premiums.
In other words, insurers actuarial / statistical process that figures out what particular risk values are worth [to pay claims, adjuster fees, etc.,...and insurer / underwritter profit], need "low risk" business models to be accounted for in all homeowners policies premium values. If the formula for establishing premiums were based on the least common denominator in the construction business arena, the "high risk" business model, homeowners would be improperly covered and insurers would suffer really huge losses when cat or other claim situations required all cards to be put on the table.
Homeowners, inherently, would be improperly covered because the insurer, who did not establish premiums that cover workmens comp, liability, general conditions, O+P values, etc., can only be "serviced" by contractors that fit the insurers convoluted indemnity protection philosophy. Since the servicing by a "high risk" [no insurances, etc.] business model is what the premium was [improperly] designed to support, the homeowner is now at risk of a law suit that covers any worker accident, and may to eat any damage to the property caused by the "high risk" contractor.
Imagine the creative inspiration a lawyer, looking at those issues, would experience by anticipating the possibility of presenting the above scenario...to a jury of policyholders.
Those are part of the reasons why adjusters have a duty to make sure predetermined premium values are not underpaid, and what really defines underpayment stratigies, inside or outside of meetings, orchestrated by carriers that may suggest otherwise... An apples-for-apples or "like and kind" low risk contractor has been accounted for in each premium, and should be objectively covered, not circumvented, in claim settlement processes.
Remember too, adjusters reconstruction data churns back to MS/B and other reconstruction knowledge gathering and distributing businesses, and that insurers, adjusters and contractors access that data. IntegriClaim or other construction / client / claim severity control schema, with it's comprehensive reconstruction / adjuster data analysis capabilities, is only as good the data it receives. Artificially undervalued claims can give a false impression as to what true indemnity values should be on the front and back of the indemnity promise keeping process.
$>>Junk in..>$>..Junk out..>>$.
Enough junk data, and premiums cannot be properly, or legally, established. Unless of course insurers ignore the junk, and fiqure premiums with a more stable mathematical / statistical [risk assuming] process, which in turn will cover sustainable "low risk" construction business model values, adjusters fee values, stockholder profit values, insurers business costs values...and their profit.
Or imagine junk data is churned back as P&L data to TDI, and then insurers having to account for P&L factors that will clash with their premium values. P&L ratios not only allow for fair profit margins to be monitored, but also allow red flags to up if P&L is grossly defying actual losses based on all adjusters individual claim payout values vs. actual component costs of a given loss.
Unless of course, all the [ground down] junk data has already been [carrier, underwriter] "anticipated" to cycle back around to artificially represent "provable" reconstruction costs / indemnity protection values. The benefits of that actuarial manuver can then justify lower premium values, so that cash and asset value levels appear mathematically and legally sustainable, which in turn leaves [naive] stockholders, TDI and [naive] consumers, overall, none the wiser.
Or those same manuvers, coupled with premium rate hikes, could allow for a lot of cash to stay in house, if DOI's look the other way as P&L ratios unfold...in the name of doing what's best, all "things" considered, for consumers.
--J.J..since you've got the address, and if you happen to pass through the Rio Grande Valley area...come have dinner sometime.
And semi-finally, [is that a real term?] G.C.'s do not take roofing trade costs or any other subtrade costs we invest in, and are responsible for, out of our O+P cost factors.
And finally, where are those mysterious rulings that state 1,2-? trades are needed by a client before G.C.s can accept business requests from them?
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Hail Damage and G.C. O&P Sleight of Hand
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