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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2003 : 23:45:17
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Lannie the "referee", now there is quite a concept; looks good on you big fella.
Kile, you cann't put a 'face' to an insured, or experiences like you relate with the 'old lady' will haunt you and stay with you for years. Only she knows the true motivation, for her engaging a PA.
With your story of the appointment process and measuring tape, can we not each recall a story of a similar 'difficult' insured. I don't care if an insured or PA ever holds my tape, because the only end they would get is the one that doesn't tell them the length; and they'll be sure to have the hooks properly set on a corner or when I pull, the hooks will imbed in there hand. I could never entrust an insured or PA to be on the other end of the tape, to tell me the length of anything.
30% for the PA scenario you provide seems very high above 'norm', but we don't know the other 1/2 of the story.
Sadly, I have to agree with Don's observations regarding the industry. Sadly, because it is true; and I have commented on similar issues in other forums.
I truly hope for myself, and sincerely hope for all adjusters, that the day will never come that we face a dictated adjustment process; that we know is wrong. I would not knowingly do that, for a number of reasons, far above any considerations for E&O issues.
However, carriers are not wealthy and liquid at this time. Yes, the last two quarters have provided a combination of much needed premium increases and decreased frequency of claims; and there is a renewed interest in proper underwriting again. But, the industry as a whole, is still in financial trouble. I don't concern myself with any given carrier dumping a portion of their book, that has gone on for over 30 years that I know of; and simply and quickly (most times) that becomes another carrier or carriers increased marketshare.
I do see an increased need for PAs in our industry, much for the reasons Don and Dale have advanced. Insured's no longer trust their carrier, and their expectations of service and benefits far out strip what is normally provided to them.
I do believe the majority of PA engagements are coverage driven, as opposed to pure measurement of quantum. I do not feel the "manipulation of statutes and laws" is a dishonorable profession; any less than the proper interpretation of a policy is.
I believe the PA can provide a valuable service to a policyholder, who for whatever reasons (real or perceived) doesn't feel they will get the proper level of indemnity from the carrier or adjuster that shows up at their door; without the benefit of a PA working on their behalf.
I think the growth in the ranks of the PA profession is proportionate to the sagging industry reputation of providing proper service and proper claims adjustments.
I have not had any negative experiences with PAs. I prefer to deal with a PA, if a coverage issue is involved and is the subject of disagreement. In each such case encountered, the coverage issue has been debated or discussed in a professional manner; whereas an insured is not normally able or willing to engage in that process, much the same as I or a PA are not capable of performing the duties of the insured's profession - be it a mechanic or a dentist.
I've often thought about Don's comment, regarding 'crossing the fence'. I tend now to think that the level of satisfaction in helping an insured, could be greater than performing a function for a carrier.
I would hope that Bill Cook would feel comfortable and welcome to post his thoughts here, regarding the issues he sees that is giving momentum to his profession; and the satisfaction he derives from a job well done. |
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Dadx9
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 07:47:19
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I agree that much of the radio talk show crowd was motivated by 'reasonable' cancellations. (Three strikes and your out). Here in Kansas the problem remains for many carriers, premium dollars collected. In regards to wealth and liquidity.
I realize that the industry has been hit hard by the claim dollars of 9/11, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to their loss in the recent highly inflated stock market. Where did all the profits go? C'mon folks let's remember recent history. I'm 47, I remember when the DOW was a success when it was above 1,000. Then the rocket decades of the 80' and 90's. A 10,000 DOW? Was that a real or inflated number? What about all the loans that were made to foriegn countries at 100 to 200% interest?
All of this to say (in the age of corporate accountability) the carriers are scambling to recover. Many wonderful, talented people work there. Unfortunately many senior management members are at an age where starting a new career is not an option. So.....what happens when the BIG GUYS buy up the small guys.... you're senior management of the small guy and the BIG GUY says jump? It is happening!!!
In the vein of this thread, our livings are being challenged. There are difficulties accounting for our expenses. There are companies red flagging our work (in order to justify carriers spending lots and lots of money on their products, changing the databases of products we invested in). The homeowner has been respresneted by us for a long time. We have always tried to be impartial, all the while representing the carriers. Whether we want to believe it our not we are their employees and will be told what to do. They control the money. That money seems to be drying up. The IA's I know are empathetic folks and have to stare the insured in the face. We have been their advocate for years.
I hoipe we can all stay doing what we do best. That is adjust claims. I hope can continue. I hear alot of the rhetoric concerning PA's. I have limited experience because they are not allowed in Kansas. I have worked CAT's all over the country and have had limited experience. The ones I have personally met were on claims where they weren't necessary and they always settled on my scope and estimate. Therefore, they weren't really required. But the homewoner believed it helped.
Sorry for rambling, it helps to have some adult conversation that isn't associated with a hospital! |
Don
"To be held in the heart of a friend is to be a king."
Bruce Cockburn |
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Dadx9
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 07:48:16
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I agree that much of the radio talk show crowd was motivated by 'reasonable' cancellations. (Three strikes and your out). Here in Kansas the problem remains for many carriers, premium dollars collected. In regards to wealth and liquidity.
I realize that the industry has been hit hard by the claim dollars of 9/11, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to their loss in the recent highly inflated stock market. Where did all the profits go? C'mon folks let's remember recent history. I'm 47, I remember when the DOW was a success when it was above 1,000. Then the rocket decades of the 80' and 90's. A 10,000 DOW? Was that a real or inflated number? What about all the loans that were made to foriegn countries at 100 to 200% interest?
All of this to say (in the age of corporate accountability) the carriers are scambling to recover. Many wonderful, talented people work there. Unfortunately many senior management members are at an age where starting a new career is not an option. So.....what happens when the BIG GUYS buy up the small guys.... you're senior management of the small guy and the BIG GUY says jump? It is happening!!!
In the vein of this thread, our livings are being challenged. There are difficulties accounting for our expenses. There are companies red flagging our work (in order to justify carriers spending lots and lots of money on their products, changing the databases of products we invested in). The homeowner has been respresneted by us for a long time. We have always tried to be impartial, all the while representing the carriers. Whether we want to believe it our not we are their employees and will be told what to do. They control the money. That money seems to be drying up. The IA's I know are empathetic folks and have to stare the insured in the face. We have been their advocate for years.
I hoipe we can all stay doing what we do best. That is adjust claims. I hope can continue. I hear alot of the rhetoric concerning PA's. I have limited experience because they are not allowed in Kansas. I have worked CAT's all over the country and have had limited experience. The ones I have personally met were on claims where they weren't necessary and they always settled on my scope and estimate. Therefore, they weren't really required. But the homewoner believed it helped.
Sorry for rambling, it helps to have some adult conversation that isn't associated with a hospital! |
Don
"To be held in the heart of a friend is to be a king."
Bruce Cockburn |
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Davey
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 08:57:59
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Having worked in So. Cal for 20+ yrs, working with PA's was a way of life. You note that I said working with, not against. All too often, the attitude of the insurance carrier about PA's was totally negative. There are the very astute and knowledgible in their ranks as well as tassle shoed salesmen who wouldn't know which end of the tape to hold.
Just as there are good and bad staff and independent adjusters.
If you've ever had to deal with a confused, unknowledgible insured with preconceived ideas of what should happen in the adjustment process, you can appreciate dealing with a PA instead.
However, to their detrement, most of the "salesmen" types bad mouth us, the carrier and anyone we might bring in to render an opinion. They get much of their work with scare tactics and name calling. Others appeal to the baser nature of the insured and promise a "profit" on the claim.
I've had a few offers to "crossover", but always felt that I had more to give staying where I was. But as Clayton said, that might change.
I usually got more satisfaction when representing insured's in the appraisal process rather than the carrier.
But, living in Arkansas for the past 10+ yrs, I've had little contact with either PA's or the appraisal process. Arkansas has chosen to disallow Public Adjusters and insurance carriers would sooner sell their first born than utilize the appraisal process. I miss a good battle.
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katadj
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 09:40:07
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There are always claims that could and should be represented. This cause of action is due to many factors, not the least of which, is the way the adjuster or carrier has approached the claim.
Being from the North East, (the birth place of the PA) and dealing with them for over 25 years, we find the same diferences that we find in the clients, the adjusters and the carriers. Some are good, others are not so good.
For the most part, if do our job correctly, include all of the items that are required to restore the loss to the condition it was in prior to the loss, are knowledgeable and fair, the claim will settle without difficulty.
AT the moment we are involved with 7 PA firms here in PA and NJ, and have yet to have a problem.
We may view them as a "necessary evil" but in fact, they can make your life a lot easier and be of assistance in dealing with a difficult insured. And then there are those that IMHO, should go back to flippin burgers.
PA's work on a fee basis, the norm being 10% of the gross loss. Up here they take a "ride" for as little as 4% on a large loss, and then there are the unseemly type that charge 30% and UP.
Most PA's here use scanners and are at the loss before the flames are out, they literally fight for the signature. The solicitor, (thats the one that gets them signed,) gets a % of the loss and the PA, (the one with the license and knowledge) gets the balance: which is often split between the people that supply them with the leads, locations, names and other pertinent information.
These PA's here have a network of people that cover the area like a blanket, they have every type of trademan and emergency services people in their collection of referals. We have seen the time when 20 to 30 % of claims were represented.
IF, you are going to deal with them, be sure that it is NOT on a fee schedule, but always T&E, or you will regret it.
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Fireman4528
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 11:32:57
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I have had only a few encounters with PA's. In not one of the claims did it change the amount of money that I was recommending for payment or me changing the way I interpret coverage. I had one PA that was on a roof with me and it was hot that day. He was bent over looking for hail damage he was circling some foot traffic and other marks on the roof, when I just so happen to be looking his way a big sweat drop dripped from his nose and hit the comp roof making a dark circle. He circled it as soon as it hit. I laughed out loud. He looked up and knew that I had seen what he did. (There was no storm related damage) He fought to the end though I’ll give him that.
I did have one experience with a PA where the risks were some apartment complexes. On these claims the owner (named insured) was not available to meet with me. Having a PA handle the claims freed him up to do business as usual. And was well worth paying the PA a percentage for him not to have to be there. In this case the PA was very helpful to the insured, even though having the PA didn't change the monetary amount paid on the claim.
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 22:28:03
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| I have never known State Farm to deny a legitimate loss. Also State Farm very seldom hires anyone to "adjust" their claims. The I/A reports to a supervisor who is actually doing the adjusting. Estimates are just that. Very seldom are light fixtures removed for painting a ceiling. Generally they are bagged and taped. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 22:50:48
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| Chuck, I adjust all my claims that I work for State Farm. I scope the loss, write the estimate, explain the estimate and issue the draft. If the insured's contractor comes back with a higher estimate, I reconcile the estimate and talk to the contractor to reach an agreed price. What am I missing? I don't know what cats you've worked for State Farm, but my supervisors are always too bush reviewing and closing files to adjust claims. Oh, and when I paint a ceiling, I always detach and reset the light fixture. |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 09:08:46
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Chuck, I am sure there are some managers out there who make you feel like YOU are not working the claim but in reality you are. You are the face the insured sees and to them the one that took care of their problem. Kiles scenario should be the norm.
No doubt some carriers have alot of checks and balances in place to insure the best possible service to their policyholders. File reviews, reinspectors and trainers to name a few. Some people get more involved in adjusters claims than others. Try not to take it personally. Customer service is the number one priority for reasons I am sure everyone understands.
As for a painters love for detaching and resetting light fixtures while painting, it ain't happen'n. They dont do electricity. As Chuck said, they are normally bagged and taped. |
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Writer
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 16:49:37
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| As merely a former insured survivor of the Northridge quake, I wish I had a PA. My carrier was investigated by the FBI among other organizations. Insureds from the Oakland firestorm came to LA at their own expense to tell us exactly how our carrier would try to screw as, and they repeated the same tactics exactly as predicted. I personally had five adjusters for one residence. My guess is that the carrier saved millions of dollars just on the float from delaying settlement. The insurance commissioner's own panel recommended hundreds of millions of dollars of penalties against my carrier and two others. But the commissioner ignored that recommendation. I think what happened to me was blatant fraud. The first adjuster told me I was one of the lucky ones because I didn't have enough damage to meet my deductible ($13,000). Three years and 5 adjusters later I settled for $250,000, a fraction of what was truly owed and did not get any money for additional living expenses. I had to share my settlement proceeds with an attorney. The settlement was not enough money to repair the property which was abandoned by me. As of my last visit to LA the property was still unoccupied. I am sure it will have to be torn down. |
Donna |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 17:54:29
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Writer, it sounds like you went through a nightmare. I hope things are better for you in Boca Raton than they were in California.
I may be mistaken but I think a PA would have asked for the same 30-33% of your settlment that your lawyer did.
Just an observation. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 18:48:16
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Donna ('Writer'), if you would, please walk us through your experience and describe the actions of the 5 adjusters who inspected your residence and how each treated you as well as any comments you care to share about their individual competence.
Did you have a contractor involved from the start?
At what stage did you bring in an attorney?
Were the 5 adjusters independent cat adjusters or staff adjusters?
What happened to you should never happen to any homeowner, and personally, I would like to think that whenever a competent adjuster is involved in a loss, there should be no reason to have a public adjuster, but as we all know unfortunately, not every adjuster (staff or independent) is competent and/or ethical, nor ie every carrier.
Anything you feel willing to share might be instructive to our body of catastrophe adjusters.
In 'bad faith' and fraud situations such as you describe, carriers should be required to pay the Public Adjuster and/or attorney's fees on top of a full indemnity settlement to the insured.
I only wish I had been handling your claim from the start or that you had had Bill Cook as your Public Adjuster, who I am sure would not have charged 30%.
Thanks. |
Edited by - JimF on 03/13/2003 18:57:58 |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 19:25:22
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Jim, here is a website that might shed some light on a PAs fee schedule.
http://www.claimproblems.com/level.html
I cut/pasted the following paragraph from the "Pay Up" section.
"If you do decide to have a public claims adjuster help you out with your claim, expect them to take between 5 and 50 percent of your claim settlement. As the settlement amount goes up, the adjuster's cut generally goes down. For example, if you settle for $5,000, the adjuster might take 30 percent of that."
I hope this helps.
CD
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Edited by - CatDaddy on 03/13/2003 19:27:21 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 20:16:39
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| Any emphasis on what a Public Adjuster might be paid instead of on the bad faith actions and quantum of fraudulent underpayments to an insured is like trying to bring order to the jungle by stomping on ants while letting the elephants run wild. |
Edited by - JimF on 03/13/2003 20:44:34 |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 20:34:24
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Sticking with the thread topic, in a comparative sense, who can help an insured more through the pitfalls of the claim and adjustment process - a lawyer, or a Public Adjuster. I'd be interested in hearing the reasons why, or why not?
Allow me to add some parameters, in a effort to focus on the question.
The 'claim and adjustment process', does not involve litigation.
The two choices the insured is deciding from, are both deemed decent and educated people, competent in the 'claims and adjustment process'; and their level of compensation will be the same.
Which does an insured pick, and why or why not?
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Edited by - CCarr on 03/13/2003 20:36:04 |
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Public Adjusters.......who needs them?
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