| Author |
 Topic  |
|
KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2002 : 18:36:11
|
| Thanks Alan. I've recieved similar answers from others I've spoken with today. Unable to get satisfaction I have written a letter to the company stating my case. I just ordered a new laptop from Dell since the one that is broken is practically obsolete, but it has now become a matter of principal. They chose the wrong person to mess with. An underemployed cat adjuster... I will keep you informed. |
 |
|
|
Catmandale
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2002 : 21:52:15
|
Good luck Kile
I had a similar experience with Toshiba several years ago...it took them ten weeks to get the part for my laptop. All the while I passed rows of the same model at the big box stores. Needless to say, I went out right away and bought a laptop to continue my work. It was not, and never again will be a Toshiba.
I did the whole bit, phone calls, letters, etc...discovering the simple truth...nobody cared.
I hope your experience is more fruitful and satisfying. |
"When we thought that we had all the answers,
suddenly all the questions changed."
Mario Benedetti (1920); Uruguayan writer.
|
|
|
|
NA
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 10:20:16
|
I respectfully request of Roy Cupps and/or one of the CADO Moderators to immediately remove each and every posting which I have made to this thread.
Such posts made by me are my intellectual property and reflect a great deal of research, preparation and personal knowledge and experience which I obtained only with the large expenditure of money as well as time and energy in diligent effort.
I, and or my lawyer, will review other educational posts which I have made over the years to this Forum as well, and similar requests to protect my intellectual property rights from any further free broadcast and distribution will be made as well.
I cannot and will not and simply refuse to allow my intellectual property to be broadcast and freely distributed on media and/or channels which practice censorship and will not allow a free discussion and debate on controversial topics, allow minority viewpoints, and limit the rights of free speech guaranteed to each and every citizen of this great country we live in.
This is not Afghanistan folks. This is America.
Roy, please remove my posts ASAP.
|
|
|
|
Admin
547 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 11:28:16
|
Jim, I do not understand your position on this. In the past you have requested that post be deleted and threads be locked, most recently as they dealt with Lon Sterling. However, I will look into the best way to honor your request. Right now it looks like the fastest way and the easiest way is just to remove all post made by the user "jimflynt". Also please be aware that CADO does not employ personnel that can handle this request thus all work of this nature has to be done by me. Today is a travel day for me and both my access to a computer and time is limited.
Please note you must agree to the license terms below from this point forward.
With respect to Content other than photos, graphics, audio or video you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of CatAdjuster.org AKA CADO and StormAdjuster.com the perpetual, irrevocable and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed.
Making any post in any area of CatAdjuster.org indcates your agreement to these turns. If you do not agree to these terms please do not post.
I have been through this with you in the past and do want to go through again in the future. |
Roy Cupps -
CatAdjuster.org :: Contact\Feedback :: Adjuster Roster :: Current Forum |
|
|
|
CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 11:29:37
|
I was an "only child", and my mother tells me I played well in the sandbox most times, because I learned early enough that if I didn't; I'd be left alone to amuse myself.
Later in life, trying to learn from others around me, I found that if a misquito was biting me, I'd swat it with my hand; and not hit it with the oar of a boat.
Whenever I got thirsty, I drank from a glass; and not the pitcher.
When I got tired, I tried to sleep; and not fall into a coma.
When I sweep the leaves from the steps, I use a broom; and not a shovel.
When I leave the company of others that I enjoy, I say "so long, see you soon"; not "goodby" as I find that has such a tinge of finality to it. |
|
|
|
KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 11:50:17
|
Jim,
I respect you greatly for your knowledge and humor. In the past 3 days you have had no humor. I understand your frustration with this Crawford situation but in all honesty I think you are over reacting. After further analyzing the situation I don't see it as such a big deal. State Farm realized they were in the mold business in Texas for the forseeable future and the cost benefit analasis said either hire some warm bodies in house or find someone who will supply them to you at lower cost. That's what they did. This mold thing is a localized event with no end in sight. It isn't like it's a hail storm that sees claim volume increasing 100 fold in a 2 week period and will be put to bed in 3-6 months. This is a long term issue and they owed it to their policyholders and their employees to get some control over costs. It's that simple. When TD #10 ramps up to a cat 3 and slams the northern gulf coast with a 20 foot surge they will be calling us just like they always do. I say this with all due respect, Jim, but lighten up, it's always darkest before the dawn. |
|
|
|
ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 12:52:05
|
Kile:
I agree to a point. Yep, looks like the big one may be on the way. If and when it hits, we'll be called. After 2 months we to will be replaced. Personaly, I don't feel comfortable letting the new crowd handle the mold litigation that will arise on any of my files. Guess who will get thrown under the bus? My lawyer buddies watch the weather channel to. They are all just waiting. Mold will no longer be just a Texas thing. Then what? Will it be okay then? It's like an iceberg. 90% lies below the surface of what we can see. Danger is there weather we see it or not. |
|
|
|
KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 14:06:28
|
Alan,
I know that this is a topic for another thread, but I was told by a CAT manager for a certain large insurance company that the whole reason that the mold thing took off in Texas was because of the wording of the Texas HO policy. It was something to the effect that the policy states "sudden and accidental loss" in Texas and it says "sudden and DIRECT accidental loss." I am not sure if this is really the reason, do you know? And if it is wouldn't this preclude the mold issue from spreading, no pun intended. |
|
|
|
olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 14:13:04
|
| Kile, mold will continue to spread because of wordings that are so badly done no one really understands them. I have seen a policy were they covered water ammended it to exclude water and then gave exceptions to the exclusion and exclusions to the exceptions. Then when that didn't work they tried it again with slightly different wordings. No mater what the underwriters intend, the companies have to live with their wordings, and if it isn't clear then the benefit goes to the insured. |
|
|
|
ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2002 : 14:24:33
|
The Alabama Dept. of Insurance stated that mold as a consequential damage is covered. At least until the exclusions kick in. Any where that a cane hit's this year will be affected by this. ( Most other states interpet the policy the same way ) Most if not all companies have mold manuals and know mold starts to grow within 48 to 72 hours.
The Lawyers will wait 6 to 8 weeks after a cane hits to start. They want the mold to be really growing good. They advertise and get 1,000's of clients. First question they ask is why wasn't this claim adjusted in accordance with your own mold manual and guidelines? Guess we can all figure out where it goes from here. Now the files goes to the new crowd to handle. |
|
|
|
ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 13:45:15
|
Practice Question:
You are handling Hurricane Izzy claims on the southeast coast. It has taken 10 days since the date of loss for the roads to open.It's your first claim of the storm. You have already made your inpection of the risk and answered all the insureds questions. You are backing your truck and or suv out of the driveway when the insured motions for you to stop. Insured has one more question. "What are going to do about all the mold growing in my house?" You know mold is excluded under the policy. What do you do? Do you take a NW? Do you wait and send a ROR letter when you get back to the office. You are in a "dead zone" so your cell phone doesn't work. Can't call a manager. You have to make the call yourself. What do you do? |
|
|
|
CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 16:06:04
|
A dandy scenario. First, I would want to have ingrained in my mind the actual wording that deals with my knowing that mold is excluded.
Now, when I was inspecting the risk - floor by floor, room by room, I would have noticed (I think, a/o hopefully), "all the mold growing in the house". As I was taking photos of damaged and undamaged areas, I would also be taking photos of "all the mold growing in the house", without making an issue or hopefully creating a conversation about it at that moment. However, before I left the premises I would have told the insured that mold I noticed or that may later be noticed, is not covered; and I would refer them to the policy wording and have them read it. I would see no need for a NW or ROR on the basis of that scenario.
If the situation evolved exactly as your scenario portrays it, I would, when stopped in the laneway, advise that mold is not covered in their policy (no different than we would explain to people with FWUA that left unscheduled items, balcony items, etc, out and were damaged). I would get the policy out and point to them the applicable wording and allow them to read it. I would see no need for a NW or ROR on the basis of that scenario.
I would be interested in how you would play out that exact scenario, Alan; from your "adjusting shoes" that have been polished with your judical training. |
|
|
|
CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 19:34:55
|
I don't feel real cozy with my answer to Alan's scenario. I look to Alan and others to give their thoughts.
My comments concerning my view that a NW or ROR would not be required, are based on the fact that the "mold issue" is an excluded type of direct or indirect damage; and not an excluded peril of loss.
I think that when we encounter a situation that presents itself as damage maybe / likely / is caused by an excluded peril; then I have NW or ROR on my mind much stronger. |
|
|
|
ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 20:17:16
|
Clayton:
Let's see if we can get others to give us their input and then I'll put my spin on it. Pull yourselves away from the WC and speak up. |
|
|
|
RJ
32 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 22:52:02
|
AlanJ:
I have been reading the many opinions about how you would handle the mold issue. Now you have advanced the discussion with your practice question on mold. So for the sake of expounding on the subject I offer my Two cents worth.
While you did not state the size of Izzy your description places the hurricane at a 3 or better. So on this basis the likely hood that an exterior opening occurred allowing rain to enter the interior of the dwelling. Rain (water) therefore, caused a lot of damage through out the interior of the structure. With exterior openings both building and contents were soaked and insured carries building and contents coverage.
So, we arrive on the scene ten days after the storm and we see mold growing. This is a very familiar occurrence especially after Hurricane Andrew where mold was at times ½" or more thick on all wall and ceiling surfaces.
After exchanging information with the insured we have the insured take us on a walk through inspection of the damages that they are requesting us to address. During our walk through we continue with are casual conversation with the insured while at the same time making a mental note of the determination of cause and origin along with the extent of damages to the structure and contents. During this walk through we only make mental notes and by the time the tour inspection is completed we basically know if any coverage questions exist, what will be covered and the approach we are going to take in evaluating the loss.
With this being said the question of mold can now be addressed. We observed mold growing on the surface of the ceilings & walls throughout the dwelling. A few ceiling areas were not water stained and some of these areas had mold growing while other areas did not. In the areas that mold was growing without any evidence of water damage we took moisture readings and determined that excess water soaked into the drywall without leaving any water stain. In a few of these areas of mold growth moisture levels were normal.
Now unless there is policy language that states coverage for mold damage, a written directive from the carrier or vendor or a decision handed down by the insurance commissioner no damage that was caused by mold would be included in our scope of damage. The operative phrase here is “caused by mold”. The concentration here on this forum has centered around this mold issue. However, water damage as a direct result of wind blown rain or rain entering through an exterior opening is covered. Therefore, the areas that have mold growing on the surface were first damaged by the water. When we properly address the areas damaged by the covered cause of loss I have a question for you, “What is left that requires an adjuster to be concerned about mold?” The fastest and easiest method to rid the mold problem is by removal. The simple solution is to recommend payment for the insured’s covered loss that was due to water not mold.
Now if during this inspection it is discovered that the insured did not reasonably mitigate their loss and as a result mold is left to grow causing damage then of course a non-waiver must be taken or Reservation of Rights letter issued because damaged caused by mold is not covered.
This entire problem around mold centers around the ability of an adjuster to apply the very first principles they learn in any 101 entry level insurance claims adjusting course. Those very important principles are cause and origin as they apply to coverages.
If mold is a result of a covered water loss then chances are that if the covered water loss is addressed properly the water damaged areas will be removed, therefore, the mold growing on the surface of the damaged area will be removed at the same time and mold will not be an issue.
As I previously stated the issue of mold boils down to the cause and origin of a loss. If a covered peril causes damage that leads to mold growing on the damaged area forget about the mold and address the damage as a result of the covered peril. The mold will be removed as the result of a covered loss and becomes a mute point.
On the other hand if the mold was created by a non-covered water loss the cause and origin of the
loss would be mold, therefore, an adjuster would not recommend coverage unless instructed otherwise.
With this said it should be very apparent that a single peril adjuster could very easily make a lot of errors in judgement in determining cause and origin of mold. Heck it appears from many of the posts on this forum even experience adjusters are having difficulty understanding the basic principals of cause and origin and how to apply them in the area of mold questions.
As with any loss if an adjuster does not follow standard claims handling procedures that adjuster subjects not only himself but the vendor and carrier to possible litigation. I just have one question, How can someone off the street with no insurance background gain the experience and knowledge, in a short training course, that is required to properly follow standard claims handling procedures? I have been in this profession for twelve years and the answer to that question is totally evading me.
As a foot note to your practice question, 10 days after the event the odds that mold growth exceeds the area damaged by the covered water loss is unlikely. Unless the dwelling is closed up and allowed to cook or the insured fails to take reasonable measures I don’t see a mold issue. However, since every loss stands on it’s own merits these conditions must be taken into account in making a determination of what would constitute reasonable measures.
After reviewing this post I realized that a very important area that was not detailed was on the extent of the scope in addressing the covered water loss. I believe that if the adjuster does not recommend the proper procedures then a problem could arise around the question of mold.
This difference can be huge between how a beginning adjuster & a seasoned adjuster will right the scope of damages. That difference could direct an insured in taking different steps in making their repairs. So, I can see where liability could come into play against not only the adjuster but the vendor and carrier that hires an inexperienced adjuster when the insured follows the adjusters repair recommendations of a covered loss and as a result of following those recommended repairs mold develops. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Non-Waivers and ROR's
Forum Locked
