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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2002 : 20:00:41
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Clayton, I guess I lump vendors and insurance companies into one big ball of wax. Maybe this is not fair. Insurance companies chisel vendors, vendors chisel adjusters. Some vendors cut prices and chisel adjusters, notice anything here. I have not yet met an adjuster that said to a vendor, "A 60/40 split, how can you make a living. Lets just have a 50/50 split." Adjusters do not cut fees, vendors and insurance companies CUT fees. Therefore I feel that insurance companies have been screwing adjusters. If an insurance company wanted a "stable" of good adjusters, they should maintain their fee schedule to reflect this valued comodity. No, they cut fees, attract untrained adjusters who screw up claims, and then the insurance company says; "See, we are overpaying these bums. Cut the rates some more." Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
You definitely are right! The insurance companies cannot afford another Andrew EVER with the quality of adjusters remaining in the CAT industry. This is SAD SAD SAD.
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Linda
USA
127 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 20:00:54
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Newt, I wish you all the best.
Clayton, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Unless and until we improve our "lot", there will be no changes. We, and we alone, retain control over the quality of the product and we are only as good as the product we produce. I'm not sure that more stringent licensing is the answer. I also do not know what it will take to motivate folks forward. Are we, as a community, so complacent that we think we know it all? that we are satisfied with feast or famine income? that we are satisfied with our level of expertise? that we have no interest in growing in our profession? that we have no interest in improving our "lot" in general? that everyone who has a license thinks they are an adjuster?
I have no answers. We can all get fired up over politics and what is happening across town but just can't seem to get the energy moving forward to improve ourselves.
Speaking of that, I suppose it about time for me to think about my Christmas story.... |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 22:46:48
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EEEEEEK!!!! Narrow the distance twixt us'uns and the staff kids? More EEEEEEEK!!!!
(Giggle.) Actually, as one who has grazed on the grassburr salary of staff and the tall clover of storm trooping, this stallion sees no real difference in what I did as staff versus what I do now. The biggest outright difference is my company vehicle is a bushel basket better than the 'Hot Wheels' that I last drove, and a whole lot safer and comfortable to work out of. Why, even the ladder fits in the back unlike that miserable lil' Dodge Neon.
Linda, you're right, it's the complacency that is the impediment to change. In physics they talk about various laws of motion wherein a body at rest tends to stay that way unless a lit torch is stuck up its rear. Well I've fired up more than a few matches around here but the body must be wearing asbestos skivvies.
In this barn, we have the expertise, the personnel, the means and methodolgy of instant communication and instruction, and the time do accomplish it all. We even have an important and imposing name for it all, (which is the absolute hardest part of starting any new venture). Finances? Not a problem. Physical location? It's right here. Goals and projections and legitimacy of purpose? No sweat, GI!
But...like you say,where is the spark to ignite it all? It's much like Shakepeares, 'Midsummers Night Dream'. As the dawn evaporates the dew, the pixies, fairies, and will-o-the-wisp fade into the zephyr of dreams, there to cogitate and scheme till the moon beckons the lovers return.
(Whoa! See what happens when you spice up the coffee with a glug of brandy?) |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 12:07:09
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Well it is invigorating to see some more activity in this thread, and all well thought out comments.
Justin, I think you have to separate and re-define your attitudes concerning the carriers and the vendors. There is a clear and wide chasm between the two, regarding their role in our industry and their respective cause or effect on our situation. My comments are clear in my previous post in this thread on my reasons and conclusion why the carriers should not be faulted for what is occuring. It is my belief that it is the vendors who are driving the price points that result in the fee schedules. It is the vendors who then tell you they need / want 40% of the fee. We have been encouraged by vendors to lay blame for the fee schedule shortcomings onto the carriers, this has been a passive propaganda exercise by the vendors to deflect the 40/60 inequity.
Carriers not only want the 'stable' of good adjusters you mention, but they are in fact promised this elusive commodity. The vendors lining up at the trough are all grovelling for the same basic piece of the storm claim pie. It is at that overpopulated trough, where the 'price of admission' to the carrier vendor 'stable' is intensely fought. The vendors 'tools', which could be considered in some cases as the 'implements of destruction' to this industry niche are; 'we can do it the cheapest', 'we can do it the quickest', 'we are the best organized service management unit'. It has been mentioned here by others, and I have seen it myself, that the regional carrier managers do not know who the foot soldiers are in the field, that they do not know the level of competency those adjusters have; this history has made the regional carrier managers fear for who has been turned loose in the field.
It is all part of 'control'. The carrier is accustomed to trying to hire competent staff to fill a defined need to fit into their 'stable', the need at any given time may be for a junior or senior staff person. The carrier always tries to match the right adjuster to the claim at hand. This does not happen with the vendor method of dispensing claims, which are normally by zip code with few exceptions. So, for those reasons and more, the carrier has created a balanced control between their own required adjusters and their expectant claims volume within their region.
Hi Tom, I've got both oars in the creek today, if I felt any better I'd be dangerous.
Yes - 'you/me/us', have to change in order to affect the pricing. I think the 'pricing' is a secondary issue, but that it will improve as a result of any positive and consistent change we make.
Yes - definitely, we must expand our usefulness and quality to have a positive affect on our market perception. That perception, like the pricing, will be a resultant factor derived from our greater diversity, our increased usefulness, and our new found level of professionalism.
The three things you previously mentioned that you thought could affect 'market conditions' were; increased licensing requirements, a decrease in the current number of adjusters willing to go out for the amount offered, and increased demand (claims events). You thought only two of those could be changed or influenced by 'us', they being the first two mentioned here. I disagree, I believe we could change or influence all three. If standardized levels of proficiency were created and implemented, I believe it would serve the purpose of your first item, 'increased licensing requirements'. That would also have a cause and effect on your 2nd item, to the direct benefit of those who are professionals in this business. I believe increasing the demand for you the product should be a primary goal, and is quite readily an item that can be accomplished. It is not the 'claims events' that we should be dependent on, that is the 'bondage' I have spoken about. There are many ways we can use existing skills, additional skills, or transferred skills; to do a lot more work in the insurance and insurance claims industries.
Yes - an obvious increase in quality of a substantial number of IAs would have an impact on the market. Again, I harp on the benefit that would be derived from creating and implementing a standardized level of proficiency. I believe it is doable. If we make the carriers aware of this initiative, it is then only logical due to the benefit that would be derived from it, that they the carriers would impose hiring criteria on the vendor in concert with this initiative.
How do we drive up our owm quality? We have to get a message first to the carriers that they should consider who the foot soldiers are, as importantly as they consider who the 'best' organizational service management unit is to use (the vendor). We must market ourselves directly to the carriers to expose our professional abilities. We must create and implement standarized levels of proficiency; and make the carriers a 'partner' in our accomplishments. These steps and initiatives would deal with the three concerns you had following this question.
Your concerns for the aspect of 'usefulness' and its relationship to mindset are understandable. Just what is a 'cat adjuster'? Is it or should it be limited to a person who works only on cat storm claims, with that work normally only characterized as 'inspecting and estimating'? For a large majority that probably didn't provide 13 weeks of work in each of the last two years. Is a 'cat adjuster' a cat adjuster that does branch assist work? I've said before, we need a new definition of what this independent contractor is. I'm not big on labels, but I see something like an 'independent claims contractor' (ICC); but whatever - if the scope of work is beyond that of only cat storm claims, consideration should be given to a new label. I don't see any narrowing of the distance between an 'ICC' and staff folk. If an 'ICC' wants to limit themselves to pure cat claims, so be it. However, there are so many opportunities out there for independent contractors, both in claims and ancillary services needed by carriers.
So Tom, I do think you have a good grasp of the vision I see, and of the transformation I think is required.
However, look at Linda's comments. It is quite puzzling why we as a community are so complacent. Ghost as well agrees with his usual unique manner of expression, and I think he has out done himself with an exceptional piece of writing; that clearly illustrates the points causing our stuck in the mud stance.
One of two entities will make the next defining move. The carriers with their need to establish control and consistency over the process to avoid the inadequacies of the current system, or 'us' to re-position ourselves in the insurance claims marketplace as a value added benefit to the process. The discussions on 'cat adjusters' will be redundant, if we fail to make the next appropriate move. |
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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 16:13:49
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Clayton, your statement above said; "Justin, I think you have to separate and re-define your attitudes concerning the carriers and the vendors. There is a clear and wide chasm between the two, regarding their role in our industry and their respective cause or effect on our situation."
Regarding pay, or lack thereof I would appreciate your comparing the following.
Adjusters as sweat shop workers.
Vendors as clothing manufacturers, (as in Sri Lanka)
Insurance Companies, as a Kathy Lee Gifford type of entity.
Just who is getting screwed here? Who has the most "cause and effect" on our income, etc. Can I please have the benefit of your experience on this? THANKS
Justin
PS You can feel free to SWAP the Vendors and Insurance company back and forth using the same "AS" as defined above.
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Edited by - Justin on 12/18/2002 16:15:56 |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 16:38:27
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| Maybe what we need is a defination of the ideal company vendor adjuster relationship. What would give the best balance for each party and still provide the product. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 18:32:29
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Justin, please go back to page 1 of this thread and have another look at my 12/12 post at 01.23, and review my comments concerning the carrier / vendor situation, leading to my conclusion; ".... I don't blame the carriers at all for what they are doing or why".
The carrier is not the 'enemy', God knows they have given 'us' enough chances. I'll suggest that you will see in the nexr few months, how the carrier could be your strongest ally.
Regarding your new set of characters, considered within the context you presented;
Yes - 'cat adjusters' are sweatshop workers, to / for the vendors.
Yes - vendors provide the sweatshop work, but only to warm and willing bodies; there is no obligation to work under those conditions, and no need to be enslaved through bondage to the storm claim.
Yes - the carriers are the Kathy Lee's of the world. They are trying to be community spirited, they want to be fair, they try to be respected corporate citizens. Kathy does not know who specifically is working in the sweatshops, that she has sub'd out a portion of her work to. Kathy agreed on a fee schedule with the vendor, Kathy had no need to drive the price point. Kathy has so many sweatshops grovelling to do her work, that she didn't have to consider any price limitations. Unfortunately, carrier Kathy is a corporation who recognizes their business is 'people', and she is not aware that the sweatshop operator, once they are up to full production, will in essence create the sweatshop environment referred to. Kathy is also not aware, but really it is not her concern - her deal is with the vendor - and she should not be criticized for it, but she is not aware of how little the sweatshop worker gets from the fees she pays.
So yes, you are getting 'screwed' in that scenario. But, I still clearly believe that Kathy is not the one putting it to you, she is not the cause of your 'fornicated financials'; she is not even clearly aware of it - both from a gross dollar to you or whatever eventual net you may have.
Mark, the definition of an ideal company / vendor relationship, within our context? Wow, that is tough to even give hypothetical parameters to.
The 'fish bowl' that the current picture is framed in - sets the current definition. Could you go back and also look at my developing thoughts in my 12/12 01.23 post, which lead to my conclusion that; ".... I don't blame the carriers at all for what they are doing or why".
You would have to create a new 'fish tank', with more swimming space, i.e. a lot less vendors to feed. The King fish would be the carriers, and the adjuster guppies would be much more highly regarded by the King fish; because they learned - in their transformation from the 'bowl' to the 'tank' - to have more survival skills, they learned to hunt on their own and were no longer in bondage solely to the storms and subservient to the vendor species. The guppies now had a more diverse use and greater value due to their increased quality of performance in the tank. There was a cost to this new recognition they created for themselves and the measuring device used to determine it; but that also created more swimming room in the tank.
In this 'new order', the carriers would commit claims to a vendor based on the carrier approving adjusters from the vendors 'lists'. This happens now in the big aquarium, where carriers approve specific adjusters within an IA day to day firm, as those only allowed to handle claims assigned to that vendor.
From this, a price will follow for quality people - proven professional and proficient people. This would create quite a dance with all 'those lists', and quickly the vendors will be scurrying to define the 'best of the best', creating verifiable "A", "B", and "C" lists of 50 adjusters each. This will also cause a change in how vendors assign their claims to 'us'. The risk then will be too great to just give someone 50 files and say these are all in one county - good luck. It will now be worth the effort to more carefully review the piles versus the qualifications of the people deployed. Only those with proven condo claims experience will get those files and others to fill out their allotment. Only those with strip plaza proven claims experience will get those and others to fill out their allotment; and more specific separation of residential and commercial claims etc and so on...
I don't know if that gives a 'definition' or not Mark, not likely; but maybe it is a vision of the new framework that would assist in the development of the definition you seek. |
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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 19:08:54
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Clayton, thanks for finally explaining to me why I am getting screwed. Now I guess the only thing left to do is KISS Kathy Lee.
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tomgriffin56
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2002 : 11:21:57
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One of the things I have learned in my sometimes tumultous life and various endeavors is that if a change is coming and you can see it coming it is better to affect the change yourself. It is usually not as traumatic and can be a little easier to take if it is self-initiated.
Believe me, if you have ever had your ass kicked by a Drill Sergeant for not meeting standards you would know what I mean. |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2002 : 13:31:40
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| Tom, I agree with you. Peter Drucker refers to it as being a "change leader" instead of a change follower. Blazing new trails is hard but at least you get to design the trail instead of following someone else's ruts yet most in this world prefer to follow rather than to lead. I guess that is good or else we would have way too many trails out there. :) |
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Calmacdad
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 00:01:59
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Well first I would like to say thanks to all of you that have contributed to this topic. This topic has been my number 1 visit since I have found this website over two weeks ago!
I would like to qualify my comments...I am not an IA yet, however I am flying to Texas this coming Friday for my certification. I have been in the Construction business for over 25 years in various aspects from Day labor to Apprentice to Journeyman to Forman to Field Superintendent to Business Owner. From Non-Union to Union to Non-Union.
My experience has been when the Unions were strong, Union members made a lot of money with excellent working conditions. With the good times the unions hired everybody and anybody and the work and the working conditions became complacent and sloppy! However, The Unions also became in my opinion, very arrogant and “thought” that they controlled all of the work and that they could dictate who worked and who didn’t work. They also tried to dictate to the Building Developers/Contractors which workers, regardless of their ability, would be on their jobsite and in some instances how long would they work on the jobsite.
This created an opening for the Non-Union contractors to come in and perform the same work, sometimes at a huge savings to the Building Contractor. However due to the low level of expertise with the Non-Union members, the work performed was in most cases sub-standard.
In turn, to compete with the Non-Union contractors the union members had to drop their wages sometimes up to 50% of what they were making 2 years prior.
However thru this time period, the union members had to re-think, and re-educate their status in the market place with the Building Developers. One of the ways that they have recovered from the almost “destruction” of the Unions was to show the Developers that they were better qualified and better trained than their counterparts. In turn their wages have risen dramatically over the last 5 years almost to where they were 15 years ago!
In summery I whole-heartedly agree with Clayton that education is the key to success of an IA and that individual classifications/licensing is a most likely coming in the future.
I hope that I have not offended anyone by having a green, not even a newbe, IA wannabe give you kind folks my opinion.
PS _ I have read about how the IA is getting “screwed” but no one has talked about the “Standard rate.” I have looked all over the web-site and could not find it either. No one, (I am assuming) wants to leave money on the table, however their will always be someone that works for a little bit less…but do they have the same measurable qualities or abilities as others, and does the Contractor/Developer have a way to measure those qualities.
Thanks again,
Jeff McClure
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Jeff McClure
cell- 818-612-4121 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 07:35:24
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Lookee lookey at what I just found. It's the address for the,
American Guild of Appraisers
P.O. Box 4660
401 Cooper Landing Rd.
Suite 601-03
Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002
They will send you an 'Authorization for Representation' card for you to be in the Office and Professional Employees International Union, (AFL-CIO) along with some other complimentery information. This is the organization the downtrodden trolls at the carriers need to fend off the honcho bullies.
You wouldn't believe the stack of stuff this was buried under in the back of the filing cabinet drawer. Whew!, spring cleaning can't come too soon.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 11:23:08
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| Why am I not suprised that they are located in New Jersey? Anyone heard from Richey Apreille or Ralphie Ciferato lately? |
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Supply and demand ??
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