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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2002 : 22:05:02
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As everyone knows (or should know), carriers cover personal property owned or used by an "insured" while it is anywhere in the world (that includes Iowa and Canada by the way).
A little closer to home though, where can a cat adjuster find some limited property coverage within the HO policies other than in SECTION I - PROPERTY COVERAGES?
Can you sit across the kitchen table and explain the policy provisions to the affected insured who inquires about the 'good neighbor' clause of the HO policy?
The HO Policy 'Good Neighbor Clause':
WHAT IS IT?
WHAT DOES IT SAY?
WHERE IS IT IN THE POLICY?
HOW AND WHEN IS IT APPLIED? |
Edited by - JimF on 12/28/2002 22:19:47 |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 00:30:05
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".... OTHER THAN in Section I - Property Coverages?" That doesn't leave too many other sections to consider. Next clue to consider was, ".... where can a 'cat adjuster' find ....", which keeps my mind focused within damages relating to 'weather perils'; but it can and does go beyond that. When a weather event struck, we would have 1 or 2 of these per 100 claims, or with non weather claims from April till October, get a couple a week within this area.
We tended to stay away from the 'good neighbour' clause expression, because that term seemed to come from the 'hands' of a direct writer, considered the 'anti-christ' to the independent agency distribution system for insurance to which I was associated with. We mostly coined it, "over the fence money", but it was the same thing.
The two 'whats' and the 'where' question are important; but it is the 'how and when' question that is the key.
There, I haven't sold the farm, but the 'road map' should be clearer. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 00:56:39
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Clayton, since we share part of the same neighborhood within the same hemisphere, as residents of 'Kanannada' and the US, we qualify, by definition as being neighbors. But that is not the same thing as the ol' 'Oh Thank Heaven For 7-11' neighborhood convenience store.
But heck: the rest of you 'neighbors' here in the 'states'......do YOU know the answers to the questions regarding the 'good neighbor clause'?
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Edited by - JimF on 12/29/2002 00:57:46 |
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Justin
USA
137 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 16:35:19
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Uhhhh, "Like a Good Neighbor, State Farm is There?"
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 19:05:48
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Don't answer yet Jim until we get more response.
This is new to me and I can only surmise that it pertains to either debris, trees or some other damage or blocking of the neighbors property, or the insureds property caused by the neighbors
debris, structure or tree.
If a tree does damage to the insureds structure or blocks the driveway this is covered under debris removal in the HO policy.
I am not familure with the phrase, so I will wait for some input from others. (SF not included) |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 19:51:02
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I have never heard any part of the policy referred to as a "good neighbor clause." Can you be more specific on this part?
Also, I am guessing we can skip Section II - Family Liability & Guest Medical Protection and look to find the answer you want in Section III - Option Protection? There are lots of things in here that can pertain to personal property.
Jennifer |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 20:12:56
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Newt, I don't think you are going to see much more of a response, but then I just noted Jenn joined us.
Go back and read Jim's opening post, then have a look at mine that followed, suggesting it contained some clues.
I think my 'good neighbour' thoughts were misunderstood or misinterpreted, but I see Justin caught the jist of it.
Newt, Jenn, what is the 'other' (singular) "Section" of the ISO HO3, other than Section I - Property Coverages? Jenn you mention Section III - which I don't have in my ISO copy, perhaps it is an enhanced or additional section for a particular carrier. Anyway, for the purposes of this, ignore Section III.
Now, Jim asked where you could find - some limited property coverage - other than in Section I. Reviewing the other section of the HO3, look to see what might 'sound like' it pertains to 'good neighbour' or 'over the fence' coverage.
Picture two homes fairly close together, and a weather related peril causing some damage to your home or things on your premises, that could - as a result of what happened at your place - affect the 'neighbour' or 'over the fence'.
What professional sport plays for a 'world' trophy in a series in October, only involving north american teams? Kids playing this sport in 'neighbourhoods' give rise to a significant portion of these 'good neighbour' or 'over the fence' claims each year between April and October.
As the question asks, you are looking for 'some limited property coverages', so get past in that other section you are looking at - the liability specific 'stuff' - and think about what you are looking for - 'some limited property coverages'.
Now Newt & Jenn, come on back, with the first three answers to the opening questions - bang on. Have a close look at the policy wording you want to use - that you found that has 'some limited property coverages' - and apply logic to 'how and when is it applied', to create the 4th answer. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 20:38:40
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The ISO standard HO policies only have 2 'Sections'. (A modified by carrier 'take off' version might have more, although I am not familiar with such).
The question I posed was indeed where one might find some additional (although 'limited') property coverages other than in Section I of the ISO HO policy.
While I did suggest that 'cat adjusters' should know the answer, I did not mean to imply or limit such coverage to weather related events only.
In fact, the real world use of the 'good neighbor' or 'over the fence' clause generally would have little to do with weather related damages.
Hope this helps in leading you to the correct answers. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 20:44:18
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Private Memo to Newt (Only):
Newt, if you and I live side by side (wish we did) and a windstorm blew my tree over into your yard and across your driveway and damaged your lawnmower, where would you expect to find coverage for the tree removal and your lawnmower replacement?
My HO policy or yours?
What if I don't have or carry homeowners insurance?
While normally answers from others would be invited and welcome, I respectfully request that everyone let Newt weigh in with the correct answer to this question. |
Edited by - JimF on 12/29/2002 20:47:37 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 21:39:50
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Now Newt, let me set up another scenario: suppose I haven't mowed my back yard in quite some time because my lawnmower is broken. I ask and you allow me permission to borrow your old Sears riding mower while you are off at the beach on vacation. While mowing, I forget about the large landscaping rock I had moved to the backyard and has been covered by the large grass.
Once I hit the rock with your mower, I severely damage your mower's blade, undercarriage and transmission. I call Sears, they send out their serviceman and he tells me repairs will be $500.00 to fix your mower.
I don't know yet doubt whether you will sue me if I don't have your mower repaired, but I do know you will not consider me much of a good neighbor or friend otherwise. (Ghostbuster would have me tarred and feathered)
My HO-3 homeowners policy has a $500.00 deductible and this damage was not caused by a weather related or "named" peril. On top of that, I lost a lot of money last month at the horse races, so I am short of the extra cash to pay for the mower repairs.
What am I going to do?
Be a good neighbor OR ?????
(HINT: You won't find any coverage for this type of damage event under Section I of the ISO standard HO policies)
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Edited by - JimF on 12/29/2002 21:53:22 |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 22:20:22
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Would that be under additional coverage HO secII Par C starting with (1) thru (2)
We will pay, at replacement cost up to 1000 dollars per occurance for property damage of others
caused by you.
In answer to your first question, my HO would pay for tree removal, it blocked my driveway.
HO3 sec I Par E. 1 Debris removal b.2 & b.4. The lawn mower would be covered under personal property due to the accident. My HO would also pay for the lawnmower RCV. A deductable would apply under most policies.
By the way, your HO probably wouldn't pay for your tree because they are normally not covered in a wind claim, they would remove it if it fell across your house or driveway. I think here they pay up to $500 for debris removal, and that is SF Policy. I have trouble speculating on coverage because some policy language is different and I haven't got them sorted out yet.
Insurance is like math , it is a heck of a lot easier when its applied. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 22:36:24
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Newt you hit a couple of 'homers' there right out of the ballpark. One for your correct tree answer and again with identifying the good neighbor clause of Section II of the HO.
Under the unmodified version of the ISO HO though, I think the limit for damages is $500.00 so I am not sure whether you're looking at a modified HO or a later edition (I'm looking at the 4/91 edition).
Next batter up: To show us some other examples of how and when the good neighbor clause of the HO can be used to provide coverages in property losses. |
Edited by - JimF on 12/29/2002 22:38:15 |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 22:43:56
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Okay... here's my stab at the answer to the initial questions posted by Jim F yesterday. (Note: I don't have the ISO version of the policy here in Northern CA with me, so I am using my companies closest version. I think it will have the basics covered.)
1 - The limited additional coverage is found in the liability section of the policy.
2 - It says: "We will pay damages which an insured person becomes legally obligated to pay because of bodily injury or property damage arising from an occurence to which this policy applies, and covered by this part of the policy."
"Occurence" is defined as: "an accident, including continuous or repeated exposure to substantially the same general harmful conditions during the policy period, resulting in bodily injury or property damage.
"Property Damage" is defined as: "physical injury to or destruction of tangible property, including loss of its use resulting from such physical injury or destruction."
3 - In my policy this is in section II - Family Liability and Guest Medical Protection. I gather from what I've seen here that this may be different from the ISO version.
4 - This would be applied when the insured has become "legally obligated" for the results of an "occurence."
Now, in my companies policy, under the "Additional Protection" section of the Liability section of the policy, paragraph 3 says:
"Damage to Property of Others: At your request, we will pay up to $1000 each time and insured person causes property damage to someone else's property. At our option, we will pay the cost to repair or replace the property damaged by an insured person, without deduction for deprecition. We will not pay for property damage:
a)to property covered under Section I of the policy;
b)to property intentionally damaged by an insured person who has attained the age of 13;
c)to property owned by or rented to an insured person, any tentant of an insured person, or any resident in your household; or
d)arising out of:
1)past or present business activities
2)ant act or omission in connection with a premises, other than an insured premises, owned, rented, or controlled by an insured person; or
3)the ownership or use of a motorized land vehicle, trailed, aircraft, or watercraft.
***********************************************
Now, I think this addresses the initial question as posed in the beginning. And I think I can answer JimF's question to Newt since I have handled quite a few of these types of claims since coming to work wind storms in CA. Lots of "good neighbor" stuff going on here, mostly fences though.
I feel pretty confident of this answer and this is where I would go were an insured to question me.
Jennifer |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 22:51:17
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Same answer as the first par of my last post. Or I could claim it on my HO under personal property.
Cause accidental damage.
Under the HO3 03 10 00 they now pay $1000, so we gotta know if we are on the same page with the customer.
I'm going to note this in my book, its good to know. |
Edited by - Newt on 12/29/2002 23:05:41 |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 23:01:12
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That's it Jenn. You have a clear picture now of 'what is it', 'what does it say', and where it is in the policy.
Section II - Liability Coverages - Additional Coverages - Damage to Property of Others ....
You have likely quoted a newer version of the wording, that contains a clearer 'how and when' with the addition of, ".... at your request ....".
Our wording 'up here', has that little qualifier plus it is called 'Voluntary property Damage'; but the rest is very similar. |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 09:04:03
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Jennifer the policy language which you quoted from the 'Additional Protection' (Modified ISO) or 'Additional Coverages' (ISO) is indeed the 'good neighbor clause' or as Clayton suggests, the 'over the fence' clause.
Just remember 4 things about this coverage extension:
(1) No depreciation applies
(2) No deductible applies
(3) No peril is required to trigger coverage.
(4) Damage MUST BE "CAUSED" by an "insured" (as opposed to 'Mother Nature').
Because of the condition that damages must be caused by an 'insured', I am curious Jennifer as to how and when you are using this section for fence coverage? (That is not the intended purpose of this extension within the LIABILITY Section of the policy)
I would love to hear from adjusters of how and when they have utilized this coverage extension with real life claim examples.
And Thanks to Jennifer and Newt for pointing out that the newer policy editions are now providing up to $1,000.00 of coverage under this extension. |
Edited by - JimF on 12/30/2002 09:39:39 |
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Where In The World OR Howdy Neighbor
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