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gloverb
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2004 : 13:03:32
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There may be some legitimacy in additional costs relative to insurance repair work versus non-insurance work that DEMIGOD referred to in a previous post. Although I think it may be tied more to indirect costs as opposed to additional work & time required on the insurance work.
Through my own direct experience in the past as a contractor & also in talking with contractors, the biggest complaint was not in pricing, but was in how hold-backs & checks are handled by the carriers. I don't think that we, as adjusters, can resolve this. This is probably more of a question at the carrier level.
Here is the problem. For a non-insurance remodel job for example, the contractor collects 40% up front, 40% about half-way thru the job with the remaining 20% upon completion, or 50%/40%/10% or 33%/33%/33% depending on the job & the contractor. Anyway you get the jist. In non-insurance work the contractor is never "floating/financing" the job with his money tied up.
For the insurance repair work there may be a substantial hold-back applied until the work is completed. A 20 yr old roof may be totaled but there may be a 70%+ hold-back applied until the work is completed. This delays the contractor getting his money. On top of that carriers generally have their own guidelines as to when the mortgage company must also be included on the check. A job that takes 1 week to complete may take 3 months to get his money. That magic # varies by carrier, but I have seen it as low as $7000.00. So, now the job has to be completed & signed off by the homeowner, sent to the carrier for payment of the holdback, & also to the mortgage company so they can set up their inspection & release the final check.
This not only delays the contractor's money but also requires that the contractor finances the job either out-of-pocket or through interim loan. Either way it is a cost to the contractor of an additional 5-10% that he would not have in non-insurance work.
This doesn't sound like a lot on 1 $10,000 roof job, maybe $3000-4000.00 to float for the contractor. But, what if he has 20 of these types of losses.
I know this is an area that would have to be handled at the carrier level & not by the adjuster.
Question: Do you prefer that the carrier give you a list of contractors to refer the home owner to?
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DEMIGOD
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 14:00:15
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gloverb,
You are so right it's mainly the contractor who floats the note while waiting for final payment to arrive. The average turn around time is 21 to 30 days upon completion of the work being done.
And guess what happens to us sometimes while we are waiting, Mr or Mrs homeowner is waiting for the ins. check to arrive and builds this extensive "punch out list" of concerns they have, some legit but most just silly as can be, but yet must be addressed before they feel comfortable enough to make final payement. So we arrive at home owners house to get the final payment and bingo another reason we don't get paid in a timely manner. These are not happening on every case of course but just sometimes it's something we have to deal with.
gloverb, in regards to the 20 or so types of losses per week, a more accurate number would be 40 to 50 for roof only. If you factor in the multi-trade jobs the number increases alot more. So yeah the insurance isn't enough I want more money to finance these jobs becuase my supplier want's his money on time despite what my recievable look like. So call it finance interest.
Another senario is that we only have a limited time before our lien rights are no longer available to us so in some cases we must inform the home owner that we will protect our rights and file a lien on thier home unless final payment is made. Sure we understand that they have not gotten thier final ins. check but that doesn't matter we must protect our rights also.
Why do I do insurance work? It's much easier to make the sales and I'm helping people who have a need. |
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Tuckernotis
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 15:42:26
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Larry,
The cost of the upgrade to me is about $800 on a 60 sq., steep pitch roof. The reason I said the adjuster or carrier, whoever it was since he works directly for the carrier, was unscrupulous was because the first time his apprentice (about 24 yo) came out (to 4 other homes too), he got up on the roof and looked around and got down. Didn't do the first test square on any elevation. And said, Oh everything looks fine to me, Bye. AMF basicaly. That pisssed me off to say the least. That's when I found this site and started doing my homework. So as you can see, I'm a bit skeptical when it comes to taking what he (the actual adjuster now since I told him not to send the kid back out) says at face value. I don't want anymore than what is appropriate. That is why I asked the question in the first place. If drip edging and valleys can be saved and reused, great. But my common sense tells me otherwise. So I just want to be informed so I can make intelligent decisions and get what I am intitled to. And it is an intitlement. I paid for it after all. My home is not just a house, it's our home. And a very nice one too. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. |
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Linda
USA
127 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 16:28:33
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RE: Mortgage companies on insurance drafts. This cannot be resolved at the carrier level and this is the reason why. The homeowner's mortgage provided for the mortgage company to be included on their policy. If the homeowner wants the mortgage company off--they have to pay off their mortgage.
If, for example, the carrier paid the loss directly to the homeowner without the mortgage company included, the homeowner doesn't have the repairs made and the mortgage company learns the home is at risk or the homeowner defaults on the loan and the mortgage company learns the carrier paid without them on the draft, the mortgage company then comes to the carrier and the carrier is then in the position to have to pay twice on the same loss.
Admittedly, it does vary from company to company. Some mortgage companies require they be on the draft from dollar one and others set different levels. Some carriers weigh the risk of paying twice and determine at what dollar point they are willing to risk this for the sake of customer service and ease for the homeowner to have small losses repaired with the least involvement. At the orientation for every storm there is a list provided us for mortgage companies from dollar one. With few exceptions, the lenders for mobil homes are on from dollar one.
Your contract is with the homeowner, therefore, it should be the homeowner floating the loan, if necessary, and not the insurance company paying more. Knowing insurance is involved is no reason to charge more--you don't know, they may not have a mortgage.
Nothing would please adjusters more than not to have to explain to the homeowner why the mortgagee is on their drafts and they have to contact their mortgage company for specific instructions to obtain funds or endorsement but that is part of the contract and must be adherred to.
It might help if you encourage the homeowner to obtain the instructions as soon as they receive the draft. I have seen a homeowner sit on a $300,000 draft until the tradesmen began filing liens and wonder why. We must take responsibity for our own actions and being pro-active is the best way.
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LarryW
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 18:09:49
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| Tuckernotis: Ok, thanks for the response. You are indeed a scrupled person. There is no reason to do a test square if an adjuster sees no damage. I don't have a clear understanding of the capacity of the person who made the initial inspection of your roof for the Insurer, sounds like it may have been an adjuster trainee? If indeed that is the case, he may be unfamiliar with what other than blatantly obvious hail damage looks like. Also, there are instances, as any experienced adjuster will attest, where hail damage is impossible (or very very difficult) to detect immediately after the hail event. This is especially true with black roofing shingles. Oftentimes the hail damage becomes much more noticeable after a bit of weathering and a couple rain events. I have worked claims for 32 years and as recently as last summer, no-claimed a roof after my initial inspection. I was called to to reinspect a couple months later and found a roof which was an obvious total loss. I don't consider myself to have been unscrupulous in not paying it after the first inspection because I saw no hail damage. To have done otherwise would have been unscrupulous. My point is (as another adjuster on this site once said) "this is not rocket surgery" and it is not an exact science. You may be convinced your initial adjuster was unscrupulous. I, however, would have reservations about making such a statement. I am sincerely glad things worked out in your favor and you are absolutely right that you are entitled to fair claims handling by your insurer. As an aside: in my experience when adjusters hear an insured say "I only want what's coming to me", it usually (not always) means the policyholder will stop at nothing, moral or otherwise, to get what he wants. It does make us pay attention. |
Larry Wright |
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DEMIGOD
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 21:19:35
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Linda,
Your entitled to your opinion about charging more becuase it's an insurance deal so I won't explain again the many reasons why we do charge more.
Yes the contract is with the home owner. The REALITY of it is, almost ALL homeowners do not have the extra thousands available to pay us when we are complete with the work and certianly can not be out of pocket while waiting for the last amount from the insurance company. And really no one should have to float anything. The home owner should not have to and neither should the contractor. When we finalize a contract and submit it to the insurance company, "MOST" still wait until we say the work is complete instead of just realeasing all, or the portion that pertains to the work we are doing to the homeowner so they CAN pay when we are finished. We must still provide either our own completion certificate or use the one if provided by the insurance company and wait until it arrives. We do as much as is reasonable to anticipate for this but we allways must wait. So time is money, the longer I have to wait to see my commissions as a salesmen and profits for the owner then the cost increases accordingly, it's simple economics. I don't care that it cost's the insurance company more becuase they as a whole don't care if I get paid immediately when I the work is complete. |
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Czar
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 22:35:08
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Demigod:
If you hate waiting on holdbacks and sending in certs of completion, then you would really hate dealing with me and the carriers that I have worked for. I have about 10 carriers that request an inspection to verify the work is complete, and yes most of them I charge for the drive by of the house. The problem rests with timing. I don't always have the chance to drive by that day or even the next. In certain circumstances it might take me a week to go out and take a look and then another day or two to send in a short report to request holdback. What would you like the company to do, just send the whole check to the insured and trust that they'll have the work done? I actually had a roofer call a couple months ago to ask for the holdback, when I told him fine I had time and would go out that day to drive by, he said well the work isn't done yet cause the homeowner spent the first draft on other matters. Do you now see why insurance companys and mortgage companys do what they do? And no I don't understand your reasoning for charging more for an insurance job. Most roofing companys have sales people who are working an area. If they have to go back out to a house to meet with an adjuster on a re-inspect, they are most likely already in the neighborhood. And as far as the extra paperwork, I would agree with someone posted above. When I get an agreed price, I tell the home owner call me when it is done, I get you the holdback. Its that easy, the roofer doesn't have to do anything. And if you do have to follow up with homeowner or adjuster for the holdback, wouldn't you have to do that with a non-insurance job where the homeowner hasn't paid you? |
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DEMIGOD
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 08:14:48
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Czar,
Question: Does the insurance company only owe the money if the insured effects the repairs?
Question: If the homeowner presented a contract with the total repair price, signed by homeowner why wouldn't the insurance company just release the funds. Example: State Farm is very good about this.
Czar I don't see your reasoning for getting paid to go back and verify that work has been completed, if you do get paid. Do you? I mean you don't state you do but you lead me to believe you do.
No I don't expect them to send the whole check, but if a valid contract in place on a roof for example. I do not see why it's unpractical for the insurance company to remit the depreciation for the roof so the homeowner can pay when it's complete.
It's great when you can call the original adjuster becuase he's still in town to get the hold back amount. In many cases becuase of the volume of work by the time construction begins and ends he's finished and moved on. So the request for hold back has to go to some one else in the claims office which takes time. so on and so on.
You said, "The problem rest's with timing" Exactly my point, probelm and time equates to increased cost's.
It's a little differant with a non-insurance job in that when the deal is sold the home owner knows up front that the balance is due immediatly upon completion. If they don't pay and there is no legitimate reason for not paying we immediatly protect our rights. We can't say to a home owner becuase he doesn't have all his money when we complete his roof or siding that we have to file a lie n or whatever becuase we know the money is there, that would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Getting the paid in full check upon completion in an insurance deal isn't going to happen and every party knows that this isn't possible in most cases. And additional time and effort is required to get the money. That's all I am saying.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not complaining, I don't HATE dealing with these things. I'm just relaying to you some of the things we deal with. Just like you convey that you "HATE" contractors that don't know what hail damage looks like and now they have convinced the home owner otherwise and you have to deal with it. To bad you can't get paid for your extra time and effort, you should as every ones time and effort is worth something. |
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Czar
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 15:26:29
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Demigod:
When I receive a claim I know going into it that I will not be paid until the claim is complete, that includes the holdback amount and the time it takes for the repairs to be completed. I know when I accept an assignment that I am not going to be able to collect on any expenses until that claim is closed. I assume you realize the same thing. I also know that when I am working for the carrier that I am going to get paid, just like you. I assume the reason that you take on insurance work is that you know that the money is there and that you will get paid. Yes State Farm may be good at releasing all funds for a signed contract, and I would assume that they do this on large storms where it is cheaper to release all of the funds and close their file rather then holding the file open and having to follow up on it. More and more companies are being cautious. I deal with a number of companies that are requiring the mortgage company listed on the draft even for $.01.
And yes to your first question. If the insured doesn't have the work done then the full replacement cost is not owed. They owe to replace or repair your damages not to flip the bill for your vacation.
And yes to your question about traveling to verify repairs have been completed. Now I don't always charge, depends on the client and if I have anything else in the area. |
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Tuckernotis
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 15:35:18
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| Thread hijacked. What does that have to do with drip edge and valleys? |
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DEMIGOD
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 17:12:01
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| Exactly that had been crossing my mind the last couple pages of this post. |
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Roof being replaced, other charges.
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