| Author |
Message |
Tom Weems
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 11:33 am: | |
There are some really great storm supervisors out there. I really don't think praising a good storm boss is a bad thing. On the other hand, you may be right that attacking a bad one might not be a bad thing. We all know who the bad ones are anyway. If you don't you will find out real quick. The point is that if a vendor employs a bad supervisor, they are responsible and the bad review is warranted because the buck stops with them. IF they want positive feedback, then they need to find a different method than employing the "management by intimidation" method. Those of us that have been around for awhile don't respond well to that anyway. |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 11:35 am: | |
Well, let's see now,
Since the carriers and vendors both keep a performance sheet on each of us, (I'm looking at a bunch of glowing State Farm evaluations on me), fair is only fair for CADO to have evaluations on the carriers and vendors.
I do, however, recommend that access to these, (I'm sure), glowing reports be limited to only CADO members. Since the carriers and vendors limit access to our sheets, it would only be right and proper to do likewise.
After all, if the general public got wind that some mythical, Colorado vendor appeared to be dumping its older, experienced adjusters in favor of younger, inexperienced kids, then some folks might not take kindly to such revelations, now would they?
Is this the kind of entry we would want to have in this survey? |
older then dirt
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 1:24 am: | |
It is one thing to rate a company or organization, but it might be dangerous ground to start rating individuals, even storm bosses (we must always assume they are human). Look forward to comany ratings but I would decline to rate individuals |
Admin (Admin)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 6:50 pm: | |
You can and have been able to rate vendors on CADO. All you need to do is go the Resource Center and select Employers, then select the company that you want to rate, click on "Review" and add your comments and rate the vendor. Click on "rating"(the Stars if there is a review) to see the comments. There are three questions, anwsering yes to all three gives a very postive rating, answering no gives a negative rating. You can give a different rating by using your yes\no anwsers. The rating is based on the number of reviews and the number of yes\no anwsers to the questions. Additonal reviews can change the overall rating (number of stars). We set this up so that vsitors could obtain a little more information on a vendor, not just employers but all vendors even the CADO pages and articles can be rated. Follow this link for an example, Flood CD Review.
We have another vendor rating system under development and will soon release in the Member's Den, it was going to be released last week but has now been delayed for a couple of days. |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 3:53 pm: | |
What a GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you envision this happening?
1) Do we rate the IA companies, the carriers, the storm bosses all separately?
2) Do we rate each other, based on the position of file examiner, inside hand, knowledge of the others?
3) Are the vendors able (if they are members) to rate us?
4) What aspects will be/are rateable?
A) Time on the job? (years of experience)
B) Work product?
C) People skills?
D) Construction knowledge?,
E) Policy knowledge?
F) Availability?
G) Response time?
H) Staying till the ball falls?
I) Equipment?
J) Computer Skills?
K) Estimating Program versatility?
L) Certifications & Designations?
M) Personal Appearance?
N) Vehicle?
There has to be some criteria established and when this is done , the program would work and work to the benefit of all concerned, the Carriers, the IA firm and the adjuster.
Tom, you have my total support and concurrence, just "make it happen" |
Tom Weems
| | Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 11:31 am: | |
Most of the auction sites have a system of feedback for each transaction. CNET auctions is the one that I am most familiar. After each transaction you can rate the vendor positive or negative, and leave a short comment. If the vendor has fifteen positives and four negatives, his score would be plus eleven. You can look at the comments for each vendor and judge for yourself.
It works for them, why not for us? A code number known only to CNET shows the people who comment. Each participant has his own code number, which cannot be changed, so that multiple posts can be identified. Just a thought, but we need some kind of rating system. |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2000 - 12:31 am: | |
Sounds like Jim injected a "Paul Harvey" scenario.
Sure was a interesting play of events, and I'm happy that he was able to resolve the issue, without filing a "mechanics notice of intention" to "perfect a mechanics lien" on all those insured properties. ( Which, incidentally, is available as a course of action, in many states.)
BRAVO, Jim for standing up and being counted, and for having the intestinal fortitude (a/k/a/B@**s) to identify the source.
Per chance you do not get called to work for that company again, please let us know and there may just be 100 or so others that will "turn the other cheek" and it is not on your face, IYGMM. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 5:55 pm: | |
And now for the rest of the story,,,,,
Here is an update.
The adjuster received two checks today by Federal Express from this vendor. One was for the balance of the per diem money due. The other was for the commissions billed to date.
The vendor now has their two files returned and in their possession, and the insureds and carrier are no longer penalized by the tardiness in paying this particular adjuster at least.
An agreement was reached with regard to remuneration for photos and the adjuster's estimates and work in the two files.
This particular adjuster will not work for this particular vendor manager again, and vice versa. Most catastrophe adjusters cannot afford to work a storm and then not get paid for our closed files for almost 10 weeks.
It was speculated that in this particular situation, the reason for tardiness in paying the adjusters was because the vendor manager wanted to defer claim billing into the 3rd quarter of the year in order to increase his bonus. It might be the greatest thing since sliced bread for this uncaring manager, but it hurts we as catastrophe adjusters. It is unfair. It is insensitive. It is selfish. And it is wrong.
I cannot imagine this manager just waiting around patiently for 2 months to receive his paycheck, and that he could not empathize with others is an indication of his failure of leadership. It was George Washington I believe who once said that a good general makes sure his troops is fed and watered before he feeds and waters himself. These are the kinds of managers we should all avoid and that we should hoist the yellow flag for other adjusters to see.
Sometimes when we look long enough at a situation, we realize that a "company" or vendor is more than just some large entity. They are made up of people. Some are fair. Some are not. Some are ethical. Some are not. Some are concerned about their cat adjusters; they show compassion, concern and caring. Others are sclerotic in their attitude to the cat adjuster family.
There are some fine people affiliated with GAB. There are some excellent caring managers. As with any organization, we find the good and the bad. We just need to be careful, and as we say here, "we need to know before we go."
Perhaps, part of the tension we sometimes see between staff managers and cat adjusters is of our own making. About a year ago, I was in a GAB office, when I heard a cat adjuster bragging to the GAB Manager that he (the cat adjuster) "paid more money in taxes last year than you (the GAB Manager) even made." A totally inappropriate statement, and one which hurts us all in the long run.
Through a combination of ideas suggested here on CADO, as well as the mere publication of the original question and possible embarassment that could bring to certain quarters, a solution to this particular situation was found.
For those who may consider working a storm in Chicago, my only advice is to "know before you go" if you ever consider working for the Chicago GAB manager. I am hoisting the yellow caution flag here as a warning to others who might find themselves in the same situation as our adjuster mentioned here.
How do I know all of this? Because it happened to me. |
Paul Bagnato
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 2:28 pm: | |
So how is one to know what vendors are changing ownership? And or are just giving the independent a hard time with respect to payments? I believe we should have a clearing house of some sort to help the IA. One which would be CADO approved... |
Rwsmith (Rwsmith)
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 9:46 pm: | |
Anonymous
I had the same thing happen to me a few years back. I called the company and told them I was going to the carrier if i wasn't paid. I guess they didn't believe me, so I called the carriers main office and spoke to the top person and stated that as much as I hated to file liens on the insureds property, I had no other recourse since it had been 6 weeks and I hadn't received a dime of the 5 figure amount that the company owed me. The head of the carriers office told me to give them 24 hours before I did anything. The next morning I had a call from the company that owed me the money and I had it within 3 days.
I for one, will never work for that company again. The carrier doesn't want any more problems than they already have.
Stand up for what is yours. It is hard enough without some @#%$ $#% trying to keep YOUR money!!!!! |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 9:34 am: | |
Dave Hood, I agree that we should raise the yellow caution flag to help other adjusters avoid situations like this.
Momentarily, CADO will be posting a Vendor Rating System which will help everyone to "know before you go."
This particular situation and vendor may have a lot to do with a recent change in company ownership. As such, changes in the way cat adjusters are treated sometimes change with new ownership. We all need to be aware of how these changes affect individual adjusters. From what I am hearing and the feedback I am receiving, this is not an isolated situation, but rather, part of a new pattern. And with this particular vendor, it is happening to adjusters who I know and deem to be darn good adjusters.
I am writing a longer article which deals with this subject and this particular situation and will make it available to Roy for posting here within the next few days.
In the meantime, I am on assignment, and if I don't close more files, Jimmy Lakes is going to kick my butt! Later!
Now more than ever, "KNOW BEFORE YOU GO." It can happen to ANYONE. |
Jim Lakes
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 12:59 am: | |
JUST THE FACTS, I know of two different adjusters who were in simalar circumstances and got paid by the carrier "post haste." They filed liens on the insureds property and when the carrier found out about it they paid the adjuster on the spot. This is not rumor, its a FACT. If the adjuster did a good job and never got paid by the vendor, let the carrier know that this is your intention to file liens and I bet you will be paid promptly by the vendor or the carrier. |
Helluvanote
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 2:12 am: | |
Deal direct with the carrier after explaining the benefit to them. Then let them apply the necessary pressure to the vendor to pay ALL parties owed. This will get the vendor blackballed from the carrier too. Fair is Fair and alls fair in love and war. When a vendor does something like this, all rules are voided. Go for it! |
Tomotexas (Tomotexas)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 7:53 am: | |
To answer the Question, If I were the adjuster, I would go direct to the carrier with my files and my time sheets and my invoice to date. With all in hand I would request my monies on the spot. At which time, if I had other unpaid files, I would present,copies to the carrrier or carriers at that time.
Trying to avoid conflict with the vendor and yet recouping funds for work done. |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 1:16 am: | |
Here is an email which I received this afternoon in response to this post from a CADO reader who wishes to remain anonymous.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 7/22/00 4:34:41 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Anonymous
To: Jim@catadjuster.org
I could not figure out how to make an anonymous post, would you post this?
Jim, I really believe this nonsense has to stop. We all need to stick together as adjusters, not claim managers, not adjusting companies and certainly not the carriers. It's us against them. They couldn't care less about us. We are a commodity, and only that. Each month we hear about adjusters getting hurt. We have a tremendous amount of expense to incur. Unrealistic file requirements and the fees are getting lower each day. Some might argue that's what cat adjusting is all about. I say garbage, I'm in this business because I like it, but the real reason is the money. It's not because I get warm and fuzzy about helping an insured or I get to travel It’s the money. I bust my tail when I work and when I do I want to get paid. I have been visiting this web site for over a year now. Look at most of the complaints. They are mostly about adjusters getting the shaft. I have just about every certification available and stay busy most of the time. I have in excess of twenty years of experience and most of you know me. But if I was an adjuster new to the cat arena I would be scared to death of the stories we post. Things need to change.
Jim I say the heck with them, If they owe me money and the bridge has been burnt I say Show Me the Money. I would not give them a single piece of paper until I got paid and I would tell the carrier the same thing. You're in the driver's seat as long as you have the file, send them all of your invoices and tell them you want to be paid first. Show me yours and I will show you mine I say.
Roy, I mean no disrespect and I hope you post this message. I think we need to move in a direction that will protect the adjuster. We all need some sort of a baseline. Minimum fee schedules for example i.e. NFIP. Holdbacks, and how long, expenses what are reimbursed? These then need to be posted or made available to the adjuster. If the independent adjusting firm wants adjusters then they can say they are CADO approved by meeting a minimum criterion. If they can't post the information they can be rated like the insurance companies. This information can also be hosted by a separate entity like e-groups to deflect any possible liability on CADO part. At least we know where we stand. It's not enough to Know before you go. It's about accountability & responsibility. The time to act is now, lets all stick together, there is safety in numbers. |
Vince Tabor
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 5:43 pm: | |
There's a story about a vendor who dies and goes to heaven. St.Peter meets him at the golden gate and informs him he can't get in.. due to his never paying his adjusters any commissions. He yells at St. Peter...I gave old Sam a whole dime of his commission back in 1957. St. Peter looks this up in his Book of Life and sees the vendor has in fact paid the dime to Sam, an adjuster. Hold on...he says to the vendor....I must consult a higher angel. He soon tells his story to Micheal (the angel) who is in charge of new souls coming into heaven. You know how to handle new entrants Micheal says to St Peter. "If he gave nothing...he gets nothing."
St Peter tells Micheal that he discovered the vendor has paid a past adjuster one dime..and doesn't know what to do.
Micheal says, " Give the vendor his dime back and tell him to go to Hell!"
Seriously, this is a tough situation, but you
should act professionally and return the files
back to your vendor. You do have legal recourse if
you did your work properly. Call your lawyer! Holding onto the files hurts you and the insured.
Don't react...ACT ...you will come out the real
winner. |
daBear
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 10:00 pm: | |
1) File contents are the work product of the adjuster and do not belong to the vendor until paid for. So I would not send these files back in until arrangements had been made on the other files.
2) Copyright the files that have been turned in. The photos are copyrightable and belong to the adjuster.
3) Inform the vendor that if the files are not paid for within a reasonable amount of time, the carrier will have to be notified. If your copyrighted work product is being used without payment, the carrier, the vendor and the insured could all be liable for infringment.
4) IF this goes all the way, please inform us so that we might avoid the same situation and "Know before we goooooo" |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 11:10 pm: | |
What an evil web we weave........................
Ok, the conditions of employment are paramount in this situation. IF the employer is an IA and has not paid the adjuster for the work completed, the vendor could be in serious default with the commissioner of labor in the state where the work was done. Again it depends on the contract that was signed. WHEN is the adjuster due the monies? After the vendor has been paid? Has the vendor been paid? Why is there a per diem involved?
This scenario sounds like an temporary employee/employer situation, that exists among several of the larger IA firms.
IF this is the case, the vendor may have a very serious labor relations problem facing them. When you are an employee, you have many more basic rights than a 1099 hire.
1)I would suggest that the party immediately file a complaint against the vendor with the commissioner of labor in the state where they worked.
2)The employee, if a 1099, or a commissioned employee of any nature may also hold an "intellectual property" copyright in force and effect from the time they produce the work until they are paid all that they are owed. After such payment is made the property then becomes the property of they that paid for it. ( The statutory penalties for copyright infringement are not to be sneezed at. they can run to $100,000.00 per PHOTO).
The vendor is probably not aware of the ramifications of their actions, and will surely be surprised if they get slammed with a $10,000,000.00 lawsuit. Not only the vendor , but the insured, the agent, the carriers all can be held culpable.
3)The conditions surrounding the relationship/contract must be thoroughly examined, most likely by a competent professional that practices in the state where the alleged infringement occurred.
4) To supply any additional work product, in light of the perceived intentions of the vendor is to agree with the vendor and may jeopardize any remuneration. (Again, they need some serious council)
IMHO,the conditions seem to be akin to one that was revealed several years ago, and not mentioned often. There was a case in which the vendor "sandbagged" the billings of a group of adjusters to increase the managers quota and bonus benefits.
This of course is total misrepresentation and may border on criminal behavior on the part of anyone that would stoop to such activities.
The adjuster needs to make all of us aware of the policies and procedures of this particular vendor so we all can decline the opportunity to work for whomever it may be.
The words " Know before you go" may not be appropriate here, but " Know where you are headed" surely bears merit |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 4:18 pm: | |
I received the following question from an adjuster asking for advice on how to handle a particular situation. I am posting it here for other CADO readers to respond to with their thoughts.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
An adjuster works a storm assignment for a large vendor for 2 months. During the two month period he receives no complaints about his file quality and work product. The vendor gives him advances equal to per diem checks for 4 of the 8 weeks. Other adjusters working for the same vendor receive a total of one week's per diem advances during the total 7 week assignment. None of the adjusters working for this vendor have received one penny in commission income for work during this period, even though the storm is now completed almost a month after the two month assignment. All of the adjusters working this storm for this vendor have incurred more expense than they have been paid to date.
This adjuster then leaves this assignment to go to another storm assignment in another state with another vendor. He also takes with him two files which he intends to close and then send back to the vendor.
The adjuster realizes now that he and other adjusters have still not been paid any commission income.
The vendor demands return of the two files and will not discuss payment for these two files until they are returned with the adjuster's photos, scope notes, diary, and other personal work product of the adjuster. The vendor's on site manager also threatens to withhold all pay due to this adjuster without the return of the complete file, including the adjuster's work product (scopes, estimates, photos, diary, and personal notes) for which he has not been paid, and likely will not be paid.
To make things even more interesting, both of the two files are for large losses. One of them involves suggested fraud by an insured for contents damage, and the adjuster's photos are the only record of contents present and contents damaged. With the adjuster's photos of this loss, the carrier can probably settle the claim for approximately $50,000.00. Without the adjuster's photos, the loss could rise to a level in excess of $100,000.00.
The adjuster knows that he is now blackballed from this particular vendor. The adjuster also realizes that he does not want to work for this vendor again due to the slow payment to the vendor adjusters. This adjuster wants to get paid for his work. The adjuster does not want to give his work away for free, including scope notes, photos, diary, and personal notes.
What would you do? What would you advise this adjuster to do? Have you ever been involved in a similar situation?
How would YOU handle this situation? |
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