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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2004 : 00:41:05
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| 9-11 and Iraq are two different issues. Or is it a hanging offence to believe that. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 07:55:48
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Mark, I think it depends upon how you look at it. If you stand really close to the screen with your nose touching it, yes it does appear to be two seperate issues. But if you back up and take in the whole picture you begin to realize that they are both part of the much larger war on terror. As politically incorrect as it may seem to sound, this war boils down to western civilization against militant Islam. The only thing that the culture we are battling respects is force. They are bullies. If you show weakness they pounce.
I believe that both US and British intelligence had reason to believe that there were bad things going on in Iraq. And there were. Now the Bush administration hung it's hat on the WMD issue. Perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake. Presidents have to make tough choices. It's still possible that the intelligence was correct and we telegrahed our punch so well that Sadam shipped it all out and it's in a cave in the Beccah (sp) valley of Lebanon. Only time will tell.
In the long run if we can get a secular democracy operating in the center of the Islamic world perhaps it will start a reverse of the old Communist domino theory and freedom and Democracy will spread through out the Persian Gulf region and the world will be a much safer place. We can only hope. If we just let the situation stagnate I believe it would be much worse in the long run.
Big Picture. |
Edited by - KileAnderson on 04/16/2004 07:56:32 |
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khromas
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 09:05:39
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Kile makes an excellent point in his statement that 'this war boils down to western civilization against militant Islam'. The key is the 'militant' portion. The west will always be at a dis-advantage when the militants can call this a 'holy' war and fight accordingly. They shoot and then run into their shrines to hide and then wait for the world outcry if the US forces even come close to damaging those buildings.
Let us not forget that democracy requires a long learning curve. The mullahs remind me a lot of our own political candidates but they have an easier job of leading the poorly educated masses. For the most part, we have learned to take the political talk with a grain of salt. They can intersperse their speechs with the religious aspects and get further.
No one ever said this would be easy. I think we were somewhat lulled by the speed with which Saddam fell and wonder 'Now what have we gotten ourselves into?'
Big picture is right. |
Kevin Hromas |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 10:06:58
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| And Sadam was a militant Islamic???? Only in the bush leagues. |
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khromas
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 10:27:22
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Saddam Hussein was a sadistic despot who tortured and killed his own people and had imperialistic goals over the region. (See Kuwait.)
The battle now is completely past that issue. The militias waging war now do not want Hussein back. Their 'enemy' now is much easier to raise passions in their people and they don't have to worry about the US not fighting by the rules like they would have had to with Hussein. There is ample documented evidence that he beat down dissent by exterminating entire villages. They know that is not what the US would do and they know that we will eventually leave so they are fighting for their chunk of the Iraqi pie.
(Lest we forget, it was a Democrat president who got us into Vietnam and a Republican president who got us out. |
Kevin Hromas |
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ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 10:46:42
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| When was the United States of America elected to the office of (World Policeman)? Don't we belong to the UN? I just wanna see some of those (Weapons of Mass Destruction) that GW swore was there. I think GW just wanted some payback for daddy. The price tag so far is 600+ killed, 3k+ wounded and 500 billion dollars. This payback was a little to expensive for my taste. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 11:30:34
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| Alan, we live in a dangerous world. The US is king of the hill and we are the ones with the big bullseye on our backs. We are not directly trying to be the world policeman. We just so happen to be that by default. If not us, who? If not now, when? We are doing this to protect our own interests and in so doing make the world a safer place. No one likes war, but when war has been delcared on you, you must fight it with all you have. |
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khromas
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 12:26:20
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| Kile makes a good point in that the US is the world's policeman by default. What has the UN done to combat global terrorism? We have had to bail the French (and all of Europe) out twice in the last 90 years and were the only thing standing between democracy and communism for the continent till the 80's. Obviously, the Frogs aren't the answer. 9/11 changed the entire picture and I for one do not think we should sit back and let it happen again. If you think we should do nothing or go ask permission from an totally ineffectual body, then get your head out of the sand (or other body orifice!) |
Kevin Hromas |
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ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 12:59:41
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I do not think we should have entered this thing under a false pretense. Don't you remember GW based the invasion on Weapons of Mass Destruction. He played on our fears. I believe people need to see that GW hoodwinked us all. I remember seeing GW on the national news. "We know he has weapons of mass destruction". For 600+ killed, 3k + wounded and 500 billion dollars, show me some chemical weapons. Clinton was impeached for less than what GW has done.
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 13:23:20
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Alan, I believe GW is an honorable man. I believe that he believed the intelligence that he recieved. John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Al Gore all said in the last 5 years that Sadam had chemical weapons. They all saw the same intelligence. Was the intelligence wrong? That could be the case. Was the intelligence stale by the time we rolled into Baghdad? Probably. But that has more to do with the lack of human intelligence available to the CIA since the entire human intelligence networks had been dismantled in the decade leading up to the war in favor of electronic and other less messy, but less reliable methods.
A President has to be able to rely on the information given him by the CIA, DIA and NSA. If those systems are broken, we need to fix them, that's certain. But what we do know is there are alot of really bad people who want to do very bad things to you and me and all of our countrymen. They seem to all be from the Persian Gulf region. Instead of sitting here and waiting for them to attack us and then trying to track them down and charge them criminally, Bush has decided to take the war to them. And for that I am proud and sleep better at night knowing that the man in the White House cares about the security of his country and it's people. |
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Todd Summers
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 13:45:43
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AlanJ,
Kile and Kevin are right. We are the world police by default. Yes we unfortunately are members of the irrelevant UN. I believe we should withdraw from that ineffectual organization and direct the monies we pay them elsewhere. I also believe that it is ludicrous that we turn Iraq over to them, as John Kerry would have us do. For what, so they can turn tail and run the next time their embassy is bombed? Do you think freedom and democracy would bloom in that scenario? If you do, you are simply wrong.
WMD's were there, why do you think Saddam was behaving as he was? The evasive, misleading behavior he exhibited towards the inspectors indicated only that he had something to hide. He had PLENTY of time to ship them elsewhere or otherwise hide or destroy them.
Payback for Daddy? Maybe, but so what? We should have cleaned his clock during the first Gulf war.
As far as the 600+ killed it is unfortunate that war brings casualties, but let's keep it in perspective. The average number of troops deployed to the theater has been around 135,000 for over a YEAR. The WEEKLY death toll of soldiers in Vietnam was around 500. I find it hard to put a price on Freedom, but if you could, I would say that what we have paid so far is NOT "too expensive". Ask anyone that has lived in North Korea, Taliban ruled Afghanistan or Saddam ruled Iraq.
Further, Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, otherwise known as "perjury". That is a crime! To equate this to a president who is hell bent on preventing further attacks and protecting our country after war was declared ON US and WE were attacked on our homeland, verges on treason. But, that is how I feel about most of you Bush-haters (that some of your views are on the verge of treasonous especially during a time of war). If you are truly worried about our troops, try supporting them instead of sending them the wrong message that you are not behind what they are doing.
And Mark,
In the future, please try to at least curb your disrespect by at least properly capitalizing our presidents name (in the same post that you didn't fail to capitalize Saddams). |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 14:16:24
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| "bush league" a lower level of competition. If I had been refering to President Bush I would have shown him the respect of the office (which is different then respect of the man). I will say that to my surprise he rose to the challange after 9-11. But he lost the focus over Iraq. All that Iraq has done for the war againsts terrorism is give it a new battle ground and a new focus. It is a big world outside of North America, many here fail to see that or if they do see it they believe that because we have the biggest stick (for now) we can all everyone how to live their lives. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 15:10:56
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| Mark, you make a good point. The battleground has shifted to the sands of Iraq. I would much rather duke it out there than on the streets of New York or Dallas or Chicago. That's called taking the war to the enemy and that is exactly what we are doing. |
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ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 15:21:05
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| Has anyone linked 911 to Iraq? Any hard evidence? |
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alanporco
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 15:56:03
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ALANJ: How can you offer any kind of support to Saddam? His idol is Adolf Hilter.
I find it interesting that GW Bush is being chided for not preventing 9/11. And yet, there is about as much credible intel on Iraq as there was on al-Queda. If you really want to lay blame for 9/11, thank Jimmy Carter. He decimated the CIA and it's never recovered. The current day blame goes to the FBI who had the intel, but simply failed to act on it.
The Iraqi issue should have been settled by the first President Bush. Storming Norman was willing to get the job done. To give GW his due, he had the nerve to rid the world of an evil. On the other hand, what would people's reaction be if Saddam had WMD and used them against us? Bush should have known? Maybe the handwriting on the wall was misread, but the world has been relieved of an evil man.
As to being the world policeman, who is better suited? This country has problems and it has faults, but it is still the best damn place to be. You don't see people risking their lives to flee to China (just an example). I remember seeing pictures 15 years ago from Serbia Croatia of the concentration camps and wondering how could we allow this to take place. The UN is nothing more than a country club for the third world nations. We keep it going to give the little guys a sense of belonging. (Am I too cynical?) |
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