| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2003 : 15:39:52
|
Whoa...Hoss!
Before you pull out the charge card, we need to review something. The Occupational Safety & Health Act of 1970 intends for you, the employee, to work in a safe manner. It is the sole responsibility of the employer to provide you with all, I repeat, ALL the necessary safety equipment to perform your job tasks. Unless you are absolutuely sure that you are the employer or owner of your own shop working that file, it is NOT your responsibility to provide these safety items.
We are at a juncture where big changes must be made in the way we do business. As the carriers reduce our income, our relationship with them and the vendors must chang to where they must shoulder the costs of doing business that we have borne in the past. Of prime importance is safety gear and safe working environments. Our climbing steep tall roofs by ourselves is not what the O.S.H.A. is all about. I have advised an OSHA inspector of this and a referrral phone call has been made as to the way our industry operates with regard to lack of ladder safety by the carriers staff employees and the vendors temporary employees.
This'll break 'em of sucking eggs!
|
 |
|
|
CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 15:55:05
|
Timely, I suppose, to remind all of the thread now on page 3 of this General forum, titled "OSHA - roofs - adjusters?".
It makes for an interesting read as a prelude to this thread, particularly the last post. |
|
|
|
LAW1526
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 21:24:44
|
| Ghost, Please let us know the out come of your phone call to the OSHA inspector. It is my unserstanding reagrding OSHA enforcement, residential is not regulated the same as the commerical industry. I can assure you, if it was regulated the smae as commerical you would not see one roofing employee on any residential roof without a harness and lanyard on any hight over six feet. |
|
|
|
Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 08:29:57
|
The roofing companies are already being cited in this neck of the woods. As such, roofing prices are set to rise as safety costs are factored into the equation. The upside is, work comp claims will decrease as fewer workers fall.
Ya hear that over there in Mobile? And, Bloomington? And, Atlanta, Birmingham, Los Angeles, etal? |
|
|
|
goose
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 09:18:41
|
| I do not agree with you, GB, How will having an organization or increased government regulation help my bottom line? I make a good living. I love the work. And I take appropiate safety measures when needed. If you notice, nowhere in the statements above do I use the word we. This Thanksgiving, like the previous 3, I will be working, making good money and helping people less fortunate than me. I like it that way. Part of the reasons we are well-compensated is because not everyone is willing or capable to do the work. |
|
|
|
Glowtom
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 17:03:30
|
| Ghostbuster: I enjoy your posts. You are a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day. Keep 'em coming. |
|
|
|
okclarryd
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 08:09:31
|
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. I'll be burping turkey for a week.
Now to the subject at hand.
As to the employer providing all the required or necessary safety equipment.........the last time I looked, I was self-employed. I think this means that if I want it-------I need to go buy it.
If I have reservations about a roof and it's accessibility, I mean SERIOUS reservations, I turn the claim back and let someone with less fear have it. There's always plenty to do on a storm and if the production is there, one or two turned back will not leave any kind of a black mark on your record. At least that's the way I've worked all the storms so far. I have used roofers to provide access to the roof but if it's too steep, too tall, too whatever, one of you other guys can have it.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. |
LARRY D HARDIN |
|
|
|
Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 09:46:55
|
(This is gonna be kinda long, so bear with me. Or, is it bare with me?)
Public Law 91-596, 91st Congress, S.2193 Dec 29, 1970.
AN ACT
To assure safe and healthful working conditions for working men and women;...
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as the "Ocupational Safety and Health Act of 1970."
Congressional Findings And Purpose
Sec. (2) The Congress finds that personal; injuries and illnesses arising out of work situations impose a substantial burden upon, and are a hinderance to, interstate commerce in terms of lost production, wage loss, medical expenses, and disability compensation payments.
Continuing on in the Code of Federal Regulations, Labor, Title 29 Part 1910 1903.13 Imminent Danger
When ever and as soon as a Compliance Safety and Health Officer concludes on the basis of an inspection that conditions or practices exist in any place of employment which could reasonably expected to cause death or serious physical harm immediately or before the imminence of such a danger can be eliminated through the enforcement procedures otherwise provided by the Act, he shall inform the affected employees of the danger and that he is recommending a civil action to restrain such conditions or practices for other appropriate relief in accordance with the provisions of section 13(a) of the Act. Appropriate citations and notices of proposed penalties may be issued with respect to an imminent danger even though, after being informed of such danger by the Compliance Safety and Health Officer, the employer immediately eliminates the imminence of the danger and initiates steps to abate the danger.
(Whew!) Let's move on to the topic of roofs and ladders. Ain't this fun?
Ooohh, here's some juicy tidbits in 29CFR1910.28(s) (3). A substantial catch platform shall be installed below the working area of roofs more than 20 feet from the ground to eaves with a slope greater than 3 inches in 12 inches without a parapet. In width the platform shall extend 2 feet beyond the projection of the eaves and shall be provided with a safety rail, mid-rail, and toeboard. This provision shall not apply where employees engaged in work upon such roofs are protected by a safety belt attached to a lifeline.
Other sections deal with crawling boards and scaffolds and gaurdrails. But, let's meander over to the ladder section now in 1910.25.
(a) Application or requirements. This section is intended to prescribe rules and establish minimum requirements for the construction, care, and use of the common types of portable wood ladders, in order to insure safety under normal conditions of usage.
The next section, 1910.26 deals with portable metal ladders.
It just goes on and on and on. If you have insomnia, try a dose of the Code of Federal Regulations and you will be in snore time very quickly.
Bottom line is, if you have taxes withheld from your paycheck, you are an employee. Period! Jennifer, Catdaddy, all the Pilot, Worley, Renfroe, Crawford people doing work for Big Red are employees. ONLY, if you are a true self-employed person are you exempt form the OS&H Act of 1970.
It is the employers responsibility to provide each employee with appropriate safety equipment and a safe work place to perform the required tasks. Failure to be in compliance results in costly citations to the employer. But, those fines are measly compared to the cost of your broken body.
Did our boy who rode the ladder to the ground screw up? Yep! Was he an employee? Don't know. Was he in imminent danger trying to pull that ladder up onto the porch roof? Yep! Was he using safe ladder techniques? Nope! Was there ladder training provided by his employer? Don't know. Did his employer have a safety plan in place? Did his employer provide a work comp policy? Questions, questions, questions.
Conclusion...Big, big changes have been forced upon us, and many more need to be made to bring the vendors and carriers into this brave new world. OSHA?, hey Babes, it's your friend, use it.
|
|
|
|
katadj
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 10:15:39
|
Ghost, as usual you are correct. Just some simple investigation will allow all the proper guidance.
The following is a TRUE story, which saved my posterior:
In the early days of OSHA, I happened to be assigned the "safety officer" of a LARGE construction firm. On the day before the law took effect, (it was a Sunday), we spent all day preparing the required equipment, buckets of cement, in which we placed the proper pipe and rings, mounted them on a roof, erected the required rope restraints and we were in complete and proper compliance with this new OSHA law.
The very next day, (Monday @ 7AM) an employee who was clearing the roof of recently fallen snow, drove a small tractor equipped with a plow, OFF THE ROOF, through the barricades, and was killed.
If not for compliance with the law, the company would have been out of business, as it turned out, the preparations, and compliance, saved the firm from the same fate as the employee.
All estimates SHOULD contain a reference to OSHA compliance and allow for a sum to meet these requirements. Failure to do so could result in very unfavorable results for the adjuster, IA firm and CARRIER
|
|
|
|
trader
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 10:45:51
|
| Very good post Ghostbuster & catadj. The little ball is now rolling, lets make it bigger, and dont let it stop. |
|
|
|
CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 11:24:05
|
G'man, as you know, in the typical course of a thread's life, you will soon meet some vigorous opposition in the form of perceived threats to a person's livelihood, the usual element of denial of applicability, and some ramblings to take the thread off course.
You have identified a number of issues within this topic which should be focused on.
(a) The employer / employee status. Many within the ranks just don't want to come to terms with that reality, as they hang on to the remaining vestiges of their perceived independence as an "independent" adjuster or as an "independent" contractor. As you pointed out, if one has income taxes withheld at source, all elements of "independence" relative to being other than an employee are gone.
(b) Who, how, or when, is someone going to tangibly address this OSHA issue with the "employers" of adjusters? We can all sit back and ponder what the vendors or carriers that "employ" adjusters might be thinking on the issue. But, through what medium and in what manner, will these "employers" be asked to reckon with their responsibilities relative to OSHA?
(c) Dave raises an interesting side bar to the issue. I can't say that I understand the application of his 2nd last sentence, but aside from a "disclaimer" or statement of some form on each estimate involving a roof; several thoughts come to mind.
(c1) It should be confirmed from the guru's of unit pricing that gets into the software relative to roofs - that there is or there is not - any allowance for OSHA compliance prep work in current roofing pricing.
(c2) If adjusters are required to be OSHA compliant in their inspection and examination of roofs, within the various definitions found in OSHA; what impact will that have on an adjuster's productivity, and what compensation is required to compensate the "employee" adjuster for the time it takes to be OSHA compliant prior to inspecting and examining a roof? |
|
|
|
Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 11:35:04
|
But, before the estimate comes safety for the adjuster that your federale govn'mint says he/she SHALL have, courtesy of that miserly employer.
Lessee here now. That roof 20' offen the ground that is more than a 3/12 pitch is a gonna need a catch platform before we'uns acsend to glory to perform our investigative job function. Unless that is, if we ain't been provided a safety life line and harness. Ya see, Fair Dinkums, that roof is our workplace. That workplace must be rendered a safe place for us by our employer. Providing access to that workplace in a safe manner is also the sole responsibility of our employer.
And, you say you prefer to pay your own money for safety so your employer can profit just that much more and then delay your pay till they get paid? How much pain will they suffer when your bones break?
No, let's talk about that later, now is not the time.
|
|
|
|
Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 11:46:42
|
| Good Morning Clayton. Yeah, I know. It has been over three decades since OSHA's creation and the financial industry is over due in recieving some attention from the folks carrying official badges and citation books in there back pockets. Our obituary column is filled with good people that might still be here if an OSHA inspector had been around one minute before their unwanted descent. |
|
|
|
goose
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 13:02:43
|
Once again, I like making the amount of money I do, for doing something that I enjoy. I have asked on here before, what effect your goals of organizing us and having imposed rules on us will be. I do not know the answer to that question. But if I was convinced that "increased safety" and belonging to a professional organization, also meant an increased bottom line for me, than I am on board. If you are not interested in trying to sell these changes to the way we make our living, then I am still going to be convinced that you are only wanting to keep things stirred up for your own reasons and not for my betterment. I am young, 47 years old, compared to many in this profession. My peers are for the most part very professional and plenty capable of making a decision on what is an acceptable risk. I see no reason to need you or the govenment to decide that for us. But I am willing to listen to a reasonable explanation. So far all I have heard is a few people wanting to find a way to stick it to the vendors and the carriers. For everyone hurt on a roof, I will venture many more are injured or killed on the highway. I know I am much more fearful of a driving accident than I am of a roof fall.
I also take exception to the continual statement that we do not get paid until the vendor does. Pilot, for instance, does not play that way. I have worked for some that do, but not Pilot. And I have always received everything owed me, even from the slower ones, such as Farmers and Wardlaw. For those that have not, keep updating us so that we can avoid those vendors.
|
|
|
|
Steve_One
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 14:36:19
|
Safety is saftey, regardless of weather the vendor you work for pays on time, or is late, that's not the issue, and don't bring Pilot into this conversation.....please.
We're adjusters, I thought that meant doing more then just climbing roofs that could better be estimated by safer means then taking our lives into our hands for the sake of a fee!
We adjust more then roofs.....don't we? We have to take in the entire picture of our duties, that means making every task as safe as possible in order to conduct the other matters we're asked to do in order to collect our fee.
Making our work place safer should not even be a question here. How can we serve ourselves out as professionals in one hand, and then be willing to sacrafice our safety for the sake of a few dollars in the other, makes no sense to me.
Adjusting an insurance claim used to mean the professional settlement of a loss situation, now it seems to mean who is the best monkey that will climb any roof in town.......give me a break people.
As long as there are a few babooms that will do anything to support they are "adjusters", we all have to settle for what comes along, in this venue, the few babooms do set the pace for the skilled and experienced.
Maybe the next time there's a storm, maybe the skilled and experienced should sit just one out, maybe the insurers and vendors will take notice of what they have left, and will then work with us in good faith!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Safety and roofs
Forum Locked
