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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
 Posted - 07/30/2003 : 21:35:04
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I've started this thread to try and capture the dialogue evolving from the "Overtime for Adjusters" thread, that is relative to this topic; and so that it can be found again by my feeble mind in months or years to come.
Hopefully, this seemingly being our semi-annual banter on the topic that has carried several names, we can progress further each time towards a goal.
Aside from the aforementioned recent discussion, for those wishing to review past dialogue related to this issue, the following are the threads that I could find that seem relevant at least to some degree. They are just noted in the order in which I found them, others may have other threads to add for review.
Events Forum
page 1 - Property 1
General Forum
page 1 - Compensation
page 3 - who are our CADO members
page 6 - Pieces and parts to the puzzle
page 7 - Standardized licencing of Insurance Personnel
page 7 - Our Future
Coverage Forum
page 3 - Where have all the good adjusters gone
Getting Started Forum
page 1 - Resumes: The harsh truth
page 1 - Claims Adjuster - an Occupational Primer
page 1 - Qualifications
page 1 - Adjuster training and entry into business
Forum Archives
There must be more there
Reviewing all that, I can't think of much more that is new that I can add to that right now.
Chuck, Mark, I think a combination of what you two suggest is on the right track. For Mark's thoughts, I think of what the NFIP does (or used to do) re an application detailing experience that is verified (at least I heard mine was), before they grant a level of authority.
Noel, keep the faith, the web can bring us within a finger tip of each other, regardless of our geographic location. Regardless of our "scatter", consider the world of other "professions" such as CAs or CPAs or Engineers or other similar professions, with their brethern independently practicing far and wide from each other. Do they not have state or national organizations and standards, that they must belong to and possess the skills to be part of and sanctioned?
Could there not be "levels" of skill? I believe the ideals of professionalism or the mission statement of the organization should be mandated to all, but I think there could or should be several defined levels of competency.
I don't care which, but just to illustrate;
(a) junior, intermediate, senior; or
(b) A, B, C; or
(c) Personal Property, Commercial, All Property, etc
Lenny, I think you have identified the focus that is required.
Look forward to more input.
If Roy agrees, and others, it may be prudent to "batch" the posts relative to this thread from the "Overtime for Adjusters thread" - to this thread for continuity benefits. |
Edited by - CCarr on 07/30/2003 21:39:17 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 15:21:25
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If I may offer a viewpoint...
When I was fresh meat at the Big FIG in 1976, adjusters were considered 'management trainees'. We were intended to promote up or promote out or turn into complacent furniture in three years. Thus, as "management" we were on salary and not paid overtime. In those 'good ol' days', we were underworked and often found time to take in a matinee. But, that was then, this is now.
Upper managements view that all on salary must work to get the job done regardless of time spent is a gross abuse of the employer/employee relationship. The cost cutting in personnel and overloading the remaining mules in the traces proves the rationale for some means to protect the mules from mistreatment being sought. I.E., the overtime lawsuits, the hushed up attempts at union organizing, the massive turnover, the use of the American Disability Act to seek relief, anon, anon.
Jennifer, it's you, (as an employee), that needs the protection from the abuse of company management most of all. You're the one with the most to lose from management abuse, or conversely, the most to gain, in seeking the shelter and strength of unionization of the industry. |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 19:55:31
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I do not need protection from a union. If I am feeling abused by company management I have the right to walk off the job and to encourage others to do so. If I want to call myself a professional then I will not have any part in unionizing the adjuster industry.
If employees feel the relationship is being abused, they have every right to walk away. Just like an abused spouse. I believe strongly in capitalism. We should expect that employers will do what they can to get every ounce of work out of you... that is the nature of a market economy. However, is, as an employee you value your personal life enough, you will not stand for it. Unionization is not necessary. Changing companies or fields might be. If enough people are dissatisfied, upper management will have to change to survive.
Jennifer |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 20:13:01
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Here are a few time honored adages:
Either we hang together, or we hang alone.
There is strength in numbers.
Get there firstest with the mostest.
An army of one can't hold 'em in the front and hit 'em in the flank at the same time.
This ain't an I'sm, this is an U.S.'im.
We're all in this together.
There is a time for flight and there is a time for fight,
and we have run out of air space.
C'mon GI Jennifer, study your history. The rot in this industry starts at the top, it didn't come from our level.
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 20:47:10
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| Jennifer, just a thought, you have referred to yourself as a professional a couple of times, and with due respect, although you and others in this industry may preform their duties in a professional maner, does that make you a professional. Management has long promoted the idea of adjusters being insurance professionals, sounds good, and doesn't cost them anything. BUT, adjusting is not a profession yet! we have the eductional programs (more or less) but we do not have a profssional organization and unlike real professional groups an organization that sets standards and can enforce Discipline. We do not want or need a union, but we need an organization if we are to become what we are in our own minds. Maybe we should be exploring that option instead of a union. Meanwhile we talk tough between storms, but when something hits, we nearly all line up and bend over (I can still touch my toes) and say me! me! |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 20:58:46
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As an old company carrier guy, who wore out two chairs in 18 years on both sides of the "desk" many years ago; I must butt in and rally support for Hurricane's thoughtful message.
I did not - as a carrier puppy, or as a carrier bulldog - want or need a union to survive or to assist me in any way.
It is the ideal situation if one feels abused by their employer or their spouse, to leave that relationship. However, in reality, too sadly we see too many people in either of those relationships without the strength or self-direction to leave those abusive relationships.
To repeat Hurricane, it is a common fact, whether a carrier or a vendor, "employers" will do what they can to get every ounce of work out of you the "employee". That applies to claims, the restaurant industry, and basically any industry in one fashion or another.
Some people look at pressure, and call it stress; and others relate to it as a challenge. Some people look at expectations, and call it demands; and others relate to it as a goal.
A person, regardless of chosen or happenstance profession, have to measure their intangible skill sets against the pressures and expectations of the field they are in.
"Abuse" has many definitions relative to each person, and each person will draw their own line in the sand on what is "abuse" during both their personal and business lives.
The channels to communicate "up the ladder" are so much clearer and helpful than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Those that feel disadvantaged in their workplace can leave, but where that is not practical, or not necessarily the right move; they must properly communicate their concerns. A union is not needed to properly communicate how your case load is unmanageable in the 40 hours you are paid to work. If a person is truly working hard, they should with courage and conviction ask management how they can work smarter to accomplish the expectations. We all must learn - at all levels of our life - to properly communicate our concerns and disagreements.
I had to, from time to time, tell and explain to some people not to bring their personal lives and problems to work. However, with equal conviction, I emphasized and discussed that they should not take the pressures of the job home with them.
Management anywhere will never please everyone. However, with proper two way communication of each other's concerns, expectations and pressures, each may come to understand the other better; and in turn eventually form a team that considers the overall and combined challenges and goals of the office unit.
I couldn't stand to work within the shelter of a union. To me, they are the true but unfortunate mules of industry. |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 07:34:14
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Mark, you are absolutely correct. I am not a "professional" in the sense that doctors and lawyers are. And you made an excellcent point that I was hoping to get to in this discussion. We don't get that status by becoming unionized.
Clayton, thanks for your remarks as well. Between the two of you my case has been made.
As to you Ghost, well, it seems we may have a difference in opinions on the basic structures of society that I don't presume I can overcome. I don't mind that. As long as the conversation is civil (this one is) and we both are working to reach the goal of better adjsuters.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Jennifer |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 08:09:41
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Mark, as Jenn says, your views are very valid.
However, the community within CADO has discussed, argued and badgered the point of a professional association - to no avail. My thoughts in support of that concept have been clear in other threads and forums, and I do recall Lenny giving us a great comparative example of a professional association that he belonged to.
You have the right answer Mark, but the soft sands of determination and committment perceived by those in our industry, make it a trail that is not pursued by many. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 09:05:35
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What makes a professional is attitude and the way business is conducted. Professionals work independently utilizing unique knowledge and resources. Professionals belong to active professional organizations. Professionals are legally responsible for their work product. Professionals do not need unions. Professionals are only in this together in the loosest sort of way.
On the other hand most of the people who work in the adjusting field are not professionals. Most are not qualified to do more than the most menial adjusting tasks. Tasks that literally any able-bodied person can accomplish.
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Davey
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 09:36:42
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Chuck
While I do agree with you on what it takes to be a professional, I think that your statement regarding "most" adjusters should be changed to "many". You're painting too many adjusters with a very broad brush. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 09:47:34
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Wow Chuck, some pretty "in the face" comments!
I certainly agree with the positive paragraph of your comments, and have seen some of the "most" on the negative side.
However, "most" - in a headcount of 100 - suggests that at least 60 to 80 of those 100 are not professional and / or qualified in their claims undertakings.
You undoubtedly have a sense for your marketplace better than I do, but, 60% to 80% of those working in the claims industry are not qualified to do more than menial tasks?
A sad and very scary statistic or observation.
If half of those numbers could be substantiated, there is little wonder why we are perceived as we are.
And Davey, "many" may be less than "most", but it is still more than 1/2?
What do either of you profess or suggest be done to remedy this statistic or observation? |
Edited by - CCarr on 07/30/2003 09:51:05 |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 17:29:56
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| Clayton, here's my idea re the qualification issue. A test could be put together by solicting questions from adjusters. A pool of questions would be posted on a web site. Lets say that we have a 1000 questions initally with an answering system that would allow computer grading probably true false and multiple choice. Each time the test is taken statistics would be generated. Bad questions would be discarded based on statistics. Each test taker would add questions to reviewed by a moderator and kept or discarded. The actual test would be computer compiled, at random, from the base pool of questions. The test would be long and hard and the only published results would be that any test taker who scored in the second standard deviation above the mean would have their name added to a list posted on the site. The test could be taken as many times as an adjuster would want to. The questions would change every time the test is taken. The questions could quite literally involve any subject, but would be generally related to subjects related to insurance adjusting. There would be a charge for taking the test, paid by credit card in the same manner that purchases are made off the internet. Monies would go to operate and maintain the internet site hosting the test. |
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NoelHardy
ca
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 17:57:54
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Hey back at you Clayton!
The idea of an 'organization' is somewhat of a dream world. I don't think that anyone will ever pull it off when we are all splintered every which way. Everyone would probably agree we need one, but with everyone scattered all over North America, it is virtually impossible to acheive. To try and hold any meetings would take a great amount of money on the part of each individual, and that is not something most people would consider. I cannot see it being run via the cyber net as it just does not work unless you are all sitting at a table. So as I was 'sighing' it would seem to be impossible to ever happen.
As far a being a professional, I know that it takes one to due complex claims. A company is not going to hire just anyone to do the complex investigating and reporting of a claim as they need it done properly the first time, without the possiblity of coming back to haunt them over and over again. It does not always stop litigation but if the claim is done properly a legal position is at the ready from the start, due to the adjuster being a professional. And again I will state that this can happen in Cat claims just as easy as any other situation.
It takes a lot of courses and hard work to be an adjuster in our area. |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 20:14:27
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Here is the first bonafide questions for a professional adjusters entrance exam.
Q1. If one and one = two, and two and two = four, is better to be called in on the first wave of a hail storm in Plano, Texas or wait until the third wave to work the outlying areas in the older neighborhoods?
Q2. Which is the better pickup truck to work out of, A Ford F-150 gasoline Supercab Lariat , a Chevy 1500 extended cab diesel, or your Dad's 1988 Plymouth Gran Fury sedan?
Q2a. Bonus points for choosing the correct color.
Q3. True or False. A truly professional adjuster always adorns oneself in raggedy blue jeans, an extra large belt buckle, and pointy toed aligator hide cowboy boots while chawing and spitting a big ol' plug of Redman into a soda water bottle.
Now it's your turn to come up with some more vital questions to test an applicants soul.
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NoelHardy
ca
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 21:50:35
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Faith is the one thing I do have. Although email is a nice thing at our finger tips, the reality is that we would still have to sit down at a table eventually to discuss and formulate all that is necessary to achieve what we are striving for, an ORGANIZATION, and one that means something to our 'profession'. Being professional goes with the territory, and is part and parcel to what we are and do!
It would be so nice to see this come to fruition!!!!! We need the thinking caps on, and of course they will run on 'overtime'!!!! |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 22:15:08
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Chuck, the correct answers to the three sample questions are as follows:
Q1. Third wave so you can take over the motel room or apartment lease from the adjuster who got mad and left.
Q2. Surprisingly, the Fury is the correct answer. It's easier to manuver in crowded motel parking lots, if it breaks or gets hail pounded, just walk away and catch a bus. Besides, Mom has wanted Pop to get rid of that old heap for years. Not to mention it is absolutely theft proof, no one in their right or wrong mind would want to steal it.
Q2a. Bonus points awarded for picking the color of light metallic blue because it looks like a Narc car and gets you in & out of inner city neighborhoods.
Q3. False. The key word is 'spitting'. A true professional does NOT 'spit'. A true professional 'expectorates' and adds a line item for it on the invoice.
You know me, I'm always here to help. |
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The concept of a Professional Organization - Redux
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