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Bruce
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2003 : 22:01:40
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I ran into some roofing claims in Dallas Texas where the insurance company is figuring the roofing prices by adding the waste into the price per square. In other words they are not using 10% and 15% on roofs.
Can anyone out there inform me where and when this got started. Being in the business 24 years I have never ran across this.
By the way the insurance company is Allstate |
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GLB
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2003 : 22:41:22
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Bruce
I think this method was started by Allstate, a few years ago. |
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rooferboy
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 20:39:56
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| Alstate was doing this in Phoenix, they pay well so you should survive |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 17:21:54
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If you add 8% waste into the unit cost and then pay for ridge seperately, shouldn't you get what you need to do the roof, materials wise? Or maybe 12% to the unit cost for extremely cut up roofs, maybe 12 valleys or more? Why should any company pay/charge for labor to install waste that is going to be cut off and thrown away?
Jennifer |
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john s
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 21:38:17
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| Just a question, but could there be just as much labor involved in taking the shingles from the ground to the roof and nailing them down and cutting and cleaning up the waste from the ground, as there is in taking the shingles up to the roof and nailing them down? |
john s**** |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 22:05:50
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There really is no difference legally or otherwise with the adjuster or carrier who writes a one line roof damage estimate and an adjuster/carrier who writes a 20 line roof damage estimate, assuming each estimate fairly restores the insured to a pre-loss condition (indemnity).
In the end, the only question important to all parties, is whether the carrier in fulfilment of the insurance contract, has indemnified the insured such that he/she is restored to pre-loss conditions.
How the adjuster or carrier arrives stylistically at the goal of indemnification is actually irrelevant (legally) as long as pre-loss restoration is compensated. |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 07:21:35
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Jim, you are exactly right. Most of the complaints from roofers come because they don't want to take the time to see if our component based estimating really is enough money. If all of the components are there, it usually is.
John, when Allstate uses component based estimating, the cleanup & debris removal and trucking & hauling are all estimated seperately.
In the end, as long as the money is there, it doesn't really matter if the roofer charges $12 to replace a lead boot and the adjuster pays $10 to replace a lead boot and $1.50 to remove, and $0.50 to throw it away. (prices not actual, just hypothetical)
Jennifer |
Edited by - fivedaily on 05/31/2003 15:36:07 |
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RidgeWalker
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2003 : 00:13:46
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Bottom line is whether the "bottom line" is comparable to other carriers.
Bottom line is that it is not.
For example on a small 30 sq laminate 8/12, Allstate averages $200 less than State Farm, and slightly more than that on Farmers.
On larger roofs those numbers add up. Especially in this jungle of a market.
Of course, none of the carries have equal
pricing, however Allstate has the distinction of being at the bottom of the pile.
Does it have anything to do with their 20+ line item system? Not in my opinion. It has to do with how the pricing is applied to that system.
I just feel bad for the adjusters who have to do that kind of estimate. I'd be willing to submit that the time wasted in creating such an estimate as well as the time wasted fielding all the roofer's calls, equals or exceeds the money saved by such an exact estimate. (BY the way...can an 'estimate' be exact? :) )
As a roofer ( a real one..I roofed for a living for 6 years) I can tell you that no waste estimate is exact. Unless your doing a very simple gable or hip, 10% and 15% are not exact numbers. But we have to have something to base our 'estimates' on. That is why I get irratated when I need to supplement a claim for an extra sqaure or 2, and the adjuster tells me that its not possible, the roof didn't measure out that way. Well, it does actually, because an 'estimated waste factor' was used to calculate the total amount, not the 'actual waste factor which is determined ultimately by the roof design.
I can assure you as well, that a properly measured (simple) gable or hip roof, when using 10 and 15 percent waste factors, rarely leaves anything more than a bundle left over. Throw in a couple of extra valleys and some small dormers, or all those eyebrows that NOBODY ever pays for because the "fall in", and bingo your short.
As far as Fivedaily's comment to the "cut of and thrown away" amount. I ask her to carry that bundle up the ladder, install the shingle, set down his gun or hammer, grab the knife, cut the shingle, throw it down, pick it up off the ground carry it to the truck and throw it in. The labor is being rightfully paid for.
A good roofer can install 4 courses to every 1 cut course on average. Until insurance compaines breakdown the installation time for valleys, hips, and stepwalls compared to field installation, the current waste system will have to suffice.
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2003 : 01:36:35
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Ridgewalker, you say: Bottom line is whether the "bottom line" is comparable to other carriers.
I first suggest, that your concept of the 'bottom line' is irrelevant to both the insurance contract and the insurance concept of indemnification.
Further, I suggest that the only real 'bottom line' is whether the insured can have the damage repaired for the amount of indemnity allowed.
As long as there are reputable contractors who will repair/replace/restore damages for insureds based on the indemnity payment, what other carriers may or may not pay for on singular items or per square allowances or gross payment are totally irrelevant as well as misleading.
If you think about it, if I'm an Allstate insured, what State Farm or Farmers or Bullcrap Mutual are paying has nothing to do with indemnity for my loss nor the insurance contract to which I am party.
My bottom line as an insured is whether I can have my roof replaced for the Allstate indemnity allowance, PLUS my deductible.
While it may be a 'jungle of a market' momentarily (which is typical of catastrophe events due to price gouging based on demand outstripping supply), I suggest you find out what the market rate was immediately before this storm, and I then further suggest that will be the rate the market will return to as it returns to an equilibrium.
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Edited by - JimF on 06/03/2003 01:46:46 |
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Noble R. Nash
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:00:45
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| Caught me on the both sides of this one.My dad was a ridgewalker all his life and this contractor makes his point,in a cat it is indeed supply and demand.I recall chainsaws going for 1000 a pop in Hugo.Most adjusters never carried 70lbs of shingles up a ladder,then turn around and go get another.Jim again hits it right on the head,Indemnity.When half your roof is gone its not like that little dent in your fender that can wait.The insured,fullfilling that promise is why we do what we do. |
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Including Waste in pricing
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