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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2003 : 15:33:58
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I tried to find an old thread where this had been discussed last year at some point, but couldn't locate it.
However, I believe Farmers were quoted in a court case as saying their adjusters only performed unimportant and routine tasks, as adjusters.
What made me think about that was an article I read today from the "Claims Intelligence Report", from Claimspages.com.
I quote, "In response to a verdict against Farmers Insurance in California, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has issued a 5 page opinion letter which concludes that insurance adjusters are not entitled to overtime pay. The DOL supports this position by stating that adjusters perform work of substantial importance to the management or operation, and that they exercise independent judgement while making coverage and liability decisions".
Seems quite a contrast to how Farmers characterized their own adjusting staff, in an attempt during their defense of a file in litigation, to discount the efforts and relevance of adjusters. |
Edited by - CCarr on 02/26/2003 15:36:03 |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 16:36:08
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I just read an article in Claims Magazine that the Farmer's adjusters characterized themselves that way, but not the corporate people...
Jennifer |
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Catmannn
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2003 : 22:33:56
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| Farmers in Ca. as a result of the courts have limited the staff adjusters to 1.6 claims per day. This is what I understand. This is to keep the staff adjusters from working overtime. My thoughts are that a few lazy, non-working, non-productive adjusters pressed this suit and won. Most of the Farmers staff property adjusters that I have crossed paths with in Ca. are pro-active property adjusters. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2003 : 11:18:58
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I should add to or clarify the opening post I made, in regards to the quote presented and the reference to the DOL opinion. The link which was with the quote is noted below. It will get you into the bowels of the DOL data.
The link with the "Claims Intelligence Report" quote, brings up an article titled;
"The 'New Economy' and its impact on Executive, Administrative and Professional Exemptions to the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA).
Appendix A
Qualifications necessary to be 'Eligible for Exempt Status'."
It is a real 'dry' document to read, and it doesn't have a date of issue. I do not think, after reviewing it, that it is the actual 5 page opinion as noted in the quote.
I did not note any limitation of this DOL paper, being to only California.
I do note that 'Claims Adjusters', have a Standard Occupational Code (SOC) of 13-1031, with an Exemption Code of (A1).
However, I sense that the issue of adjusters being exempt from overtime, could have significant ramifications at least with carriers; which could or will in time spill over to day to day IA vendors, in a positive way.
I believe it is an issue that should be followed, and those that have friends or contacts within the carrier ranks, should find out as time rolls on; what the impact inside the carrier claims operations is going to be.
If there is an indication of movement towards only assigning staff 1.6 new claims per day, that will have a huge impact on staffing requirements and / or outsourcing of claims. Eight new claims per week, given the average size and complexity, is far below assignment levels in the 'real world' to staff.
It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds, and how quickly it may spread across the land and among carriers.
Watch out for Claims Call Center vendors trying to increase their piece of the pie, and for high volume day to day IA vendors coming up with ridiculously low 'flat rate' file fees for volume committments.
This is a good early time for 'cat only' adjusters, who can work effectively beyond weather only perils, to make themselves "known" to vendors in their area that handle day to day claims.
www.dol.gov/asp/programs/flsa/report-neweconomy/Appendix.htm |
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Manmut
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 08:43:09
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Its my understanding that there is a class-action lawsuit going on right now against one of the major carriers for overtime pay for CAT adjusters and non-CAT adjusters who have worked CATs. The logic goes that, while adjusters have some latitude in how they do their job, they are still limited in their authority. Furthermore, since they generally have a rough standard of how many claims they are supposed to try to close in a day, they are by definition production workers.
I guess it all boils down to one question: are claims adjusters production workers? I can tell you that in the corporate offices of major insurance companies claims people are considered blue collar workers. Most claims people I know who have tried to break into corporate positions have told me that there is no question that their background in claims is a strike against them. I also know (from interviewing for jobs) that some disability claims positions are paid on an hourly basis with overtime pay being an accepted part of the job. |
Patrick W. Laws |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 09:46:25
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These class action suits are nothing more than sleazy lawyers looking for yet another way to make steal money from the guys with deep pockets and the adjusters who go along with it are no better than the lawyers. They are looking to get something for nothing.
We had this argument a couple of years ago. Adjusters are proffesionals. Especially cat adjusters. We are independent contractors. We set our own hours and we do what we feel needs to be done. One of the things I love about this job is it gives you the freedom to work the way you want to work. If these lazy, something for nothing adjusters get their way, they may get a few pieces of silver, but in doing so, our pot of gold will evaporate.
Insurance companies will require that we work out of their offices. They will require that we be at our desks at a certain time. They will schedule apointments for us and they will tell us when to go home and they won't let us take our work out of the office. After the Farmers/California suit a couple of years ago, I arrived on a cat and was made to sign a form that stated I get paid x amount per day (the regular day rate) It said that Y amount was for the first 8 hours of the day and Z amount was for the last 4 hours of the day, so in a 12 hour day I got the same amount of pay I did before, but now I was getting overtime. How does this make any difference?
The companies aren't going to pay any more for our work than they already do. They will just structure the work or the pay to fit whatever stupid law or judgement comes out of this. As usual the only people who win are the lawyers and everyone else involves loses. Damn Lawyers again. |
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Dadx9
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 14:43:18
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As an ex-Allstate employee, I have been approached concerning a lawsuit filed on our behalf. The thought is we were required to work overtime not because of management directives, but pending caseloads. A requirement of our job was to close 100% of annual openings. In order to do this it took 70 hour weeks. My territory (Kansas, Iowa and western Missouri required approximately 20 weeks (based on 40 hours a week) of windshield time.
Most recently the Dept. of Labor has ruled that adjusters do not qualify for overtime pay. This is in direct response to the lawsuit filed and won on behalf of Farmer's adjusters.
Who knows what the outcome will be other than the financing the legal industry? If the owe it, they should have paid it. Did anyone twist my arm? NOPE! I was motivated to take care of the insured so that they would continue to purchase our product and I would have a job. Did that work? NOPE! Worked myself out of a job once it got slow.
Solution? Work your required work week. When the wheel gets to squeaking see if they'll hire help (yeah right).
I really thought I could stay in my staff job until the end of my career. Oh well, It'll all work out. It always does.
There's my 2 cents. |
Don
"To be held in the heart of a friend is to be a king."
Bruce Cockburn |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 20:12:04
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Kile, your fury towards the legal hired guns may be a little too intense. Our role used to be as independent contractors. But, increasingly we have evolved, thanks to the IRS, to the role of temporary employees. If you get a W-2 instead of a 1099, you are not a self employed contractor anymore. In fact, if the vendor sets you up where you are recieving direct supervision of the work product, you are an employee.
Folks, we'uns is temporary employees.
And...as such, why are we required to provide the client, (Big Red), with a nationwide communication system for the benifit of the client and their customers? Why are we required to provide the vehicle and insurance and cost of travel without compensation for it? Why are we required to pay for our own lodging as employees of the vendor but the employees of the client do not?
WHY ARE WE STILL TREATED AS SELF EMPLOYED CONTRACTORS WHEN WE ARE MERE EMPLOYEES?
If you do not get a 1099, then you and I are mere employees. We should be treated as employees. The vendors are reaping a bonanza by not accepting their responsibilities to treat us as the employees of any other trade are treated. (Yeah, I know , I'm getting off topic and showing my fury, too.)
I agree with these law suits about overtime. The staffers have been abused and deserve recompense and even union representaion to protect them from the carrier honchos. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 20:37:04
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You know what's going to happen when people start complaining and becoming pains in the butt? If some slick legal snake finds a way to make the carriers pay overtime, they will just pay us less or overstaff every storm. You know what happens when storms are overstaffed. We all get 30 claims and nobody has to work overtime. It doesn't cost the carrier any more and they don't have to pay overtime. The only ones who lose are the IA's. I think the system is good now. I don't mind working long hours. I prefer it. I get paid well for what I do and I don't want a bunch of whinny, gimme something for nothing plaintiffs and slimy legal types screwing it up for me.
Mannual laborers get overtime. Unionized monkeys get overtime. Professionals, people who make money for making decisions and solving complex problems don't. If you want to make overtime, go turn a wrench on an assembly line. If you prefer to get paid by the hour head on down to Wal-mart and see if they have a blue smock in your size. If you want to be respected as a knowledgeable proffesional, quit your bellyaching and close some files. You get paid for doing a job, not for how long it takes you to do it.
To me applying rules of overtime to our proffesion will have the same effect that the minnimum wage has had on entry level jobs. Those who are the least efficient, and take the longest time to do the job will make the most money. That doesn't seem fair, now does it? I don't care if I get a 1099 or a W-2 (I get both). I'm happy the way things are and I don't appreciate a bunch of whiners rocking the boat.
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 21:51:26
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Raise the flag Ghost, and wave the banner bearing, "Here Stands a Community of Employees"; I've subcontracted with Delores to bounce up and down and hold the other end up high.
I think anyone working under a W-2, is jeopardizing their Independent Contractor status.
Really, the issue of overtime to an Independent Contractor is redundant. The thread was for awareness and a watch post of developments within carrier ranks, regarding their staff claims people not being entitled to OT. I still think some good will come of it to Independent Contractors in due course, at least in the way of additional assignments.
An Independent Contractor is running their own business, even if it is a sole proprietorship. I run mine under a registered corporate name, and have a Federal ID# for each country.
I would not work in the US under a W-2, only a 1099; and want the check payable to my company. Up here in ice land, it is no different; just different form numbers. I haven't come across any objection to that, and what seems to be the clincher when there is inital concern or want to pay under a W-2; is the existence of and payment to my registered company. In fact, I vividly recall myself and another adjuster 'discussing' this with a vendor who wanted to utilize a W-2, the presence of my company made the day for me, and the other adjuster without a company had to go under a W-2 or don't bother coming. Further, I have heard and seen more than one instance over the years where the contracting company, would not engage with an individual, but only with registered companies; as the contracting company wanted to keep an "arm length" distinction between Independent Contractors and "employees".
In essence, an adjuster, as an Independent Contractor, who operates that business under a registered corporate name, is a subcontracted vendor.
With the company set up, and payment to your company, as an Independent Contractor, you then can decide - what you want to take out in 'money', when you want, and how you want; to put coin in your pocket. Creates a much better situation regarding 'income' and taxation to you as a person; and the company.
I caution people who think they are operating as an Independent Contractor, to keep all income transactions at "arms length" to avoid the employee relationship; with regards to "employee status" and taxation. |
Edited by - CCarr on 03/04/2003 21:57:04 |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 18:51:26
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| Sargeant Kile Honey, your dire prediction about over staffing and less pay has already come true. See what a great Guru you are? |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 18:59:04
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| Yes Ghost, they do seem to over staff, lately, but just immagine if they had to pay overtime. It would be even worse. |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:03:29
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| How many adjusters is too many at a storm? What's the secret formula? |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:23:00
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| One for every 100 claims. |
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mshort68
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:26:05
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| I get the first 1000, remember. |
The grass is always greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed! |
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CatDaddy
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:42:24
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1 for every 100? 12 adjusters for 1200 claims? If they came in a few at at time, maybe. If the storm happened Saturday and Monday morning there were 1200 in the system, no. Your customer service will suffer and complaints would be too high.
I know money makes the world go 'round but they have to get something for their buck too. |
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Overtime for adjusters?
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