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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
 Posted - 01/07/2003 : 22:56:46
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| Here is the thread which Clayton and I agree needs to be set up to discuss the hows, whys, and whens of contents claims handling, as well as some of the pitfalls which can occur for the adjuster walking across that potential minefield. |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 23:22:29
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| You've opened up such a large can of worms here. Are you talking about claims involving contents only? Flood claims? Wind/hail claims? Fire? Theft? |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 00:14:29
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Interesting comment. Why would the handling of a contents loss be any different if you were assigned a 'total loss' at at tenant occupied location, i.e. personal property only basically; or a serious loss involving structure and contents? Why would they be handled any differently, let alone how that difference would be defined?
I don't understand what the peril has to do with 'how, why & when' of handling the contents loss? |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 00:30:54
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That's kind of my point. I'm not really sure what the question is. On a contents loss, after determining coverage, I would have the insured make a list of the contents, when and where they were purchased and how much they paid. Depending on the amount of the damage and how reasonable the prices are I would deduct the depreciation and pay the ACV. Now I realize that this isn't exactly how it would be done by a staff adjuster working everyday claims, but in a cat situation things have to be a little more streamlined. If it becomes necessary I'll head down the the local Wal-mart or Mall and verify prices or even check the internet for prices. Of course I would verify the existence of and damage to the listed items and photograph them. If it is a situation where an item may be repairable I would advise the insured to get a repair estimate.
Isn't this how everyone does it? |
Edited by - KileAnderson on 01/08/2003 00:53:21 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 06:25:02
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This thread is for a discussion of claims handling techniques for CONTENTS ONLY, whether in a loss combined with other elements of loss (property, ALE, etc.) or stand alone contents loss (renters, theft, cargo loss, inland marine losses).
While perils can of course be brought into discussion to illustrate some of the problems and pitfalls of contents handling ('out of sight' items due to total loss fire or inventory losses under the commercial forms), the thread was not envisioned as having any great need to otherwise get into lenghty discussions of peril.
I hope this clarification makes it easier to post and share your thoughts and concerns about contents and content claims handling issues and techniques.
As for opening up a large can of worms, well I am sort of used to doing that, and believe it better to open those cans here so we can practice and learn the subject matter, rather than seeing them opened for the first time in front of an insured with great embarassment to the adjuster, vendor and carrier.
I just happen to think that opening the insurance claim worm cans here on these CADO Forums is the better way, don't you? |
Edited by - JimF on 01/08/2003 07:49:51 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 08:45:34
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This important topic seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle, and it is vital that newer adjusters especially, learn how to handle these claims properly with maximum efficiency and effectiveness. Contents losses become more common with larger flood, wind and fire losses, but can and are seen in smaller losses as well as under damages caused by other perils. Some losses may be contents only (theft or lightning, for instance).
To me the proper handling of contents losses, starts with that initial phone call with the insured. It is here that we may first learn there are contents involved in a loss, and the extent of those content losses.
When first discussing the loss by phone, here is the perfect opportunity to learn the nature and quantities involved in damaged personal property. This call allows the adjuster to advise the insured of how contents losses are handled, and prepare the insured to start preparing the all important contents list for review and submission at the first inspection appointment. This can and does save the adjuster time later and makes the claim process move along more smoothly. Some adjusters even go so far as to fax or mail contents 'forms' to these insureds to expedite the process and speed up the insured being paid for this sector of the loss.
When coverage A and B are expected to take longer to resolve due to the extent of damage, an insured may be able to realize full payment for their contents loss even faster than their real property losses, and unlike Coverage A and B, where payments may be made to the insured and a mortgagee, indemnity payments for Coverage C - Contents should be made payable to the insured soley, which can be important to the affected insured.
I'll share more ideas in the days ahead as we build a foundation of knowledge of handling contents losses, and I invite others to weigh in and share their methods here, so others may learn. |
Edited by - JimF on 02/09/2003 08:54:59 |
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ShermaninCO
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 09:37:05
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Speaking from personal experience, it took me three weeks to assemble a contents list for items in my basement(partially finished). I had RCV on the property, but due to circumstances I only replaced 50% of the property. The settlement was for 25k, unfortunately this was prior to my going into this field and my office equipment was not covered. Lesson learned the hard way, but thats another story.
In actuality it was not a covered loss, no SBU coverage. But, my insurance covered it anyway and subrogated the loss back to the City.
I guess I'm rambling, but my point was that getting the insured started on contents list with the first phone call is important to be able to close the claim in any kind of timely manner.
I also learned a lot about insurance, at the time was more than I thought I ever wanted to know.[:D] Now I realize it was just the tip of the iceberg. |
Bill Sherman
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ckleisch
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 14:22:01
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I thought I would wade in with some thoughts on contents handling. Loss handling comes first based on what clients want or requires. If homeowners- is there an RCV contents amendatory endorsement? If fire or theft loss involved first thing i do is take a statement from the insured to get facts on the record. With any contents claim comes question of ownership and proof of ownership. If purchased with a check bank of insured should have a record. Credit cards will result in Microfiche/Computer records at place of purchase and credit card company. Second thing to do is get a written authorization to release records. Third file a PILR form (Property Insurance Loss register form) track loss history.
As to contents themselves I maintain business cards for Art Conservators, replacements services, gun and tool replacement services. In addition I have a library of up to date Pennys, Sears, Graingers catalogs.
Depreciation i apply using a Congressional depreciation Guide on a per item bases. Good enough for the IRS what insured can argue.
Appliances can be found by going by the local place of purchase or equivalent. got to have the model and serial number.
Hope input helps a newby here is an example theft statement I use on every case:
1.)When did loss occur location-address if in transit-identify mover
2.) rental property who is landlord
3.)who has keys
4.)Description of residence/age of building/type of construction
5.)Name, age, and relationship of all household occupants
6.)Specific Location of loss-room etc
7.) How was loss discovered-by whom-time and date of discovery/what was done at time of discovery
8.)how and where was entry made/signs of forced entry-describe damage. has it been repaired where is repair receipt.
9.)doors and windows locked
10.)alarm systems describe-wired to police-did they go off were they in operation
11.) does insured have info or suspicion of a suspect
12.)reported to police-department/detective/case number
13.)items stolen who is owner/describe each/location of item before theft (ie floor impressions, dust)
14.)make/model/size/serial number/identfying marks
15.)purchase information-where/when/original cost/receipt-appraisal
16.) have any items been in storage recently or out for repair
17.)any of stolen items under financial contract/which items/to whom/balance owed/payments current
18.) any recent robberies in neighborhood/who
19.)any other insurance on property/company/policy number
20.) name of prior carrier/policy number
21.) any prior theft losses-obtain details
22.) ever been cancelled by insurance company-if yes obtain details
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 08:53:15
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Set up system to inspect room by room, Have the insured list items by room instead of catagory.
I would use the method of the movers, they inventory every item, of course this may not be called for when investigating a claim of a partial loss. A good mover can inventory, pack and load in about four hours so they must be doing something right. I don't mind stealing an idea if it works.
When asking the client for a list, request they do it by room, this is the way I would organize for ID purposes, when you need to check ser.# and potograph it saves steps. If you get in the habit of organizing the way you investigate content losses, you could probably fine tune it. Its hard to fine tune anything that is done at random. This is just my opinion and I am sure there is an accepted practice.
I am looking forward to more input because I have only done one and I was the insured. The way I done it the adjusters work took less than fifteen minutes. I listed bed rooms by MBR,BR1,BR2 etc ,all others by name. I listed age, source if I knew and the cost. I didn't list food items because I had no idea. Frozen food was a snap because all I had was a 1/4 of beef And had just cleaned out the freezer and bought the beef. I had the bill for that. It was a 35K loss.
I also got a fire Marshalls report prior to filing the claim.
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 09:16:18
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Newt, a 'movers system of inventory' and its resultant 'detail', would be woefully inadequate to properly quantify any contents loss.
A mover will say things like; "2 coffee tables, 1 coffee maker, 1 mattress', etc. Pretty generic to properly evaluate.
Detail is required, beyond mere generic inventory.
I also, like you, tackle this exercise by room. However, I want to gather the data by contents category (i.e furniture, electronics, clothing, crafts/hobbies, sports ....) etc. Then when I have that, by room, by category; I find it much easier to work with on the quantifying stage of the exercise; so I'm not jumping around on a page or pages, from a shirt to a TV to a mattress, but can work on a category of contents.
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Edited by - CCarr on 02/10/2003 09:22:58 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 09:24:22
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Ok Newt. Here are a couple of the scenes you arrive at to inspect the loss:
(1) A fire loss has totally destroyed the residence risk. Contents are 'out of sight'. Now what?
(2) A Category 5 hurricane has blown the roof and walls away from your risk residence with both collapsed in and onto all contents. Now what?
(3) Thieves have entered the residence risk while the insured was on vacation and stolen a large quantity of personal property and vandalized the home afterwards into a great state of disrepair. Now what?
(4) A flood or large water loss event has severely damaged the risk and contents, and many contents have been disposed of prior to your arrival, in a dumpster, or they are piled up along the curb. Now what?
Your presumption to handle contents on a room by room basis works IF you can see and inspect the personal property damaged. You will likely find few insureds who submit their damaged property lists to the adjuster on this basis unless it is demanded by an adjuster.
Your idea is not a bad one but my suggestion in handling contents claims would be to show more flexibility or you may create more problems than you cure. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and different contents losses may require different response techniques. |
Edited by - JimF on 02/10/2003 09:28:32 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 09:34:05
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I second Clayton's comments, and find that with large damaged contents lists, it is invaluable for the adjuster in checking prices to do so by 'category'. As Clayton has said, I don't want to be jumping from a shirt to a television and then over to a mattress.
Most adjusters will be using some contents pricing database or else reviewing catalogues from Sears, Penny's, Circuit City, Office Depot, etc., and it is easier and far less confusing to review all electronics pricing at one time, then all furniture, etc. |
Edited by - JimF on 02/10/2003 09:35:41 |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 10:22:54
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I'll give it a shot.
1. Ask the insured to try think of each room and the contents and itemize what they had in each room. Ask them to sketch the rooms even closets and use that as a guide. Then as you say you can then catagory. It is very difficult to remember catagories for me without visualizing each room seperately. Then to catagory the inventory give each catagory a letter designation.
You are right about the movers, they usually use forms and only add the qtys. Yet their systematic approach is what saves them time. That is the point I would like to make, although ours may have different requirements, we have to have a system that can be tweaked.
2.Basicly the same then proceed to identify and photgraph as much as you can of high value items.
3.A copy of the police report, file or case Number, contact.
Collect as much data as posible, missing items, serial numbers,mfg, model, description, cost age and identifying marks or blemishes.
Other damages handle as normal losses unless you see evidence that may intrest the person investigating the crime.
4. I would first go to the dumpster with the insured( A messy Job) find all the high dollar items seperate them and photograph. You got to do some rag picking here or your claim will not be as complete as most carriers would like. I assume it would be ok to photograph other low cost items or colthing in a pile. It is imperitive you get to this task before they are picked up. After this is completed and you have identified all high cost items w/model,ser. numbers,etc. Then you are free to carry on with the claim.
While you are rag picking you may want the insured help identify some items and it aiso gives you a chance to get aquainted. |
Edited by - Newt on 02/10/2003 10:30:38 |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 11:22:56
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| Good luck with your system Newt. Let us know how it works. |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 12:20:46
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Jim has got to the real 'hornet's nest' of contents claim scenarios. I sense that often adjusters don't give contents their 'due', even in serious loss situations; in fact I hear that echoed as a carrier perception. I have heard adjusters express considerable chagrin when being faced with a serious loss involving a major contents loss exposure, that chagrin seems to be centered on their perception (when working under a fee schedule), that there is a dubious return in 'fees' related to the effort required. However, in such scenarios as presented, the contents loss could easily exceed $50K itself, and in the fire example Jim posed, would undoubtedly also be a contents limit loss; therefore I think the result is worth the effort.
However the debate on that may rest, I don't know of a better way to provide a professional claims product, when faced with any of the scenarios Jim has presented; other than something close along the lines of the following. If anyone has a better / smarter way, within the same scenarios, to present a professional work product - bring it on.
In other than the burglary / vandalism (#3) scenario, which I'll come back to, I have a standard approach (subject to specific site conditions or 'behavior' of the insureds) that I try and follow. It has worked for me. My thoughts are all exclusive of any considerations of cause and coverage, and are just concentrated on 'how to handle contents losses'.
In each of the fire, hurricane or flood scenarios, there is still 'evidence' of the contents. There may be an awful hellish pile of rubble and debris, but there is still evidence of the destroyed contents. I have never yet seen a piece of electronics, a mattress, dishes, etc; completely disintegrated or incinerated by fire.
My initial 'tools' in the first exercise, are a garden spade and my camera, and the insured is welcome to help if he/she feels so inclined. My objective at this exercise is to document for the carrier the 'reasonableness' of the eventual contents schedule. I want to eliminate any concern by the carrier for the 'integrity' of the eventual contents schedule. I want the carrier to only have to concern themselves with considering the quantum of the contents loss, as has been eventually determined or agreed by me - nothing else.
A fire will leave many 'skeletons' of identifable contents, a hurricane or a flood more so. So, my first exercise is to document with pictures the identifable 'skeletons' or remnants of the contents in the debris, in the loss site, or at the curb. Within the structure, and everyone must be aware of and measure the safety risks, where a living room or dining room 'was', will carry some 'skeletons' of usual contents to those areas. I get what I can, as much as I can.
Then it is time for a sit-down with the insured, preferably both Mr. & Mrs.. With their help, I create an interior footprint drawing, laying out rooms and halls, per floor. When we are all satisfied with that, I then start a separate page diagram for each room, just to layout the perimeter of each 'area'. Then I pick a 'simple room' diagram from all the rooms created, likely a second bedroom (son, Frank). With that room perimeter drawing, with the insureds, and 'Frank' (if he is 10 or 12 years old or more), we start to place the furniture only in that room diagram - the bed, night table, dresser, desk, chair, etc.
If I can follow my objective, I then leave it to the insureds to complete each room to that extent only, prior to our next review and sit-down. The severity of the loss has them living via ALE, so this gives them something to do, gets them involved, and makes them part of the process. The second part of my 'instructions / request' at this point, is that after each room layout is complete with furniture, that they on a separate page, detail that furniture eg - twin bed w/ wood frame head & foot, 16"x16" night table w/ 1 drawer, 5 drawer dresser, child's desk w/ 2 drawers, desk chair w/ wheels but no arms, etc.
Next visit, is to review each furniture layout diagram, in comparison to the detail I established with Frank's room, as a template. Then review those diagrams to the room furniture contents detail lists, as was suggested for Frank's room.
If the insureds are 'on base' and 'on course', the next 'assignment' I lay out for them is what was in things that had drawers or doors - dressers, closets, etc. Again, I work with them on Frank's room, with two new sheets for Frank's room - one titled clothing and one for 'other'. I'll start for them the 'other' list for Frank's bed - twin mattress & boxspring, a set of twin sheets, 1 blanket, 1 comforter, 2 pillows, 2 pillow cases. The night table - table lamp w/ shade, 1 Hardy Boys book, 2 comics, 3 Nintendo cartridges. The dresser I do by drawer. That sort of format. I leave that with the insureds for a few days, to accomplish that exercise per room.
Next visit, most of these visits are also tied to other claim elements, is to review the above, make the insureds think as I question different areas, all with the purpose to get a 'feel' for the general shopping habits of the insured and to make sure they have 'explored' in their mind each drawer or behind each door.
Now, it is time for me to take these diagrams and lists, and transpose them onto a schedule spreadsheet format in my computer. The spreadsheet has all the normal headings, as well as a 'category' and 'room' headings. So, I can create the schedule in both of those noted formats.
Next, I want the insured to review that 'copy' exercise and reflect on the result in the formats presented - I give the insured the schedule in both 'category' and 'room' format. The category format is where they will likely remember any lingering items previously forgotten. The next step is for the insured to complete entries for the other required and normal headings - when purchased, where purchased, cash/credit/check (Ca,Cr,Ch), cost new when purchased, etc.
When this is at hand, the insured and I will review it, I've been 'measuring' each step along the way, in relation to what I could find and identify in the debris - both with regards to volume and quality. If a 'discussion' in that regard is necessary, it will happen at this stage, as will shopping patterns relative to claimed quality or quantum issues, or LKQ or RC issues or concerns.
Finally, I then have to take that schedule that has been developing to that point, satisfy myself with it (varying degree of checking on various of the headings - but that has been an ongoing concern and exercise); then report to the carrier. The report will include the 'essence' of the steps taken, and my recommendations.
Regarding the burglary scenario, the thought process is the same, some of the steps are the same, but the stolen items are gone. However, even with vandalism present, what is not gone - is the 'footprint' of where the item was located. That is more of the focus on a serious burglary loss. Is there an empty entertainment center where all the claimed stolen electronics, would have fit? Are other contents that exist, comparable to claimed volume and quality of the stolen items? There are different investigative steps that play a larger role in burglary claims, but the principal things at site is what is the 'footprint' of where this stuff was?
Now, all this can go to hell in a basket, for many reasons, one of which could be a specific carrier instruction on how to deal with contents losses. However, this is the general template which I try to adhere to within the specifics presented. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 13:09:21
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You got the finite details I had overlooked, and they look good to me, I see no reason why the carrier would not be pleased with your system.
I witnessed one adjusters work on a total loss(not mine). The owner was out of town and had been gone three days when his house was burned, I always thought it was arson but never said anything.
When a house is vacant for three days, no lightning you kind of suspect foul play.
I was there at the request of the owner to meet with the adjuster and show him the place. The adjuster got out of his car walked around two sides of the house site and got back in his car. The next day the owner got back and he started working on a contents list. As far as I know the adjuster never went went back to the site. I don't think that is the way it is done. This was a staff adjuster and I'm sure he had the support of the company. I doubt a CAT could get away with so little information. From my reading you gotta do some documenting, so the claims manager can visualize the site and contents. |
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How Do I Handle? (Contents Losses)
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