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Message |
    
Eric Carlson
Registered User
Username: Ecarlson
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:59 am: | 
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Hello Jim,
Sorry I've taken a while to get back with you. We've been in the middle of getting this new release out which always takes a good amount of effort so I've been tied up.
I'll try to give you some answers to your questions without dancing around too much. Obviously a customer list is a valuable item (especially for a small but growing firm) so I won't get too specific but I'll give a few examples.
Question one was which carriers/vendors require the use of our software. We have a good number of small to medium sized carriers and adjusting firms who use PowerClaim exclusively. However, we do not encourage companies to "require" anybody to use our software. As you know we have been pushing for an open standard based on the XML data format (check out propertyclaimxml.org) so adjusters and organizations can use the software that best fits their needs and budget. If we were in the business of forcing people to use our proprietary systems we would be just as bad as the other guys already on the market.  (Picture me saying that as I stand next to John Postava or Scott Wiens giving them a jab in the ribs. Come on guys! Get with it!) For example, we recently received preferred vendor status with Frontier Adjusters which has 600 offices around the country. We had marketed to their adjusters individually and have made a lot of them happy over the last few years so when it came time for them to choose a preferred vendor it was a natural fit for them. There are still lots of Frontier adjusters who prefer MS/B, Xactimate, Vedders, etc. which is fine with us but we will do our best to win them over as time goes on.
The second question was which vendors/carriers allow the use of PowerClaim. We do not have a list such as that compiled but from the information we receive from a lot of our independents they have submitted claims using PowerClaim to just about every major carrier out there. For example, it's a well know fact that State Farm requires the use of Xactimate but there have been CAT situations where we know that claims were submitted to them (and accepted) using PowerClaim. So I'm really not sure how to answer that question. I suppose that would be a good marketing opportunity for us to poll our customers and see which carriers they are submitting to on a regular basis. I will pass that idea on to Gale.
I hope this gives you something to go on. Also, we should be shipping out that new release in the next couple of days so be looking for it in the mail. |
Jim Flynt
Member
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 231
Registered: 6-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 9:44 pm: |
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Memo To Eric Carlson:
(1) Which carriers or vendors REQUIRE the use of your PowerClaim software?
AND
(2) Which carriers or vendors ALLOW the use of your PowerClaim software in estimating and reporting claims?
(Message edited by Jimflynt on March 20, 2002) |
Gale Hawkins
Member
Username: Gale
Post Number: 181
Registered: 12-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 9:38 pm: |
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Jim I am feeling much better after getting back from the island for a few days. That was my first trip to Galveston and I really enjoyed the break from nonstop ringing phones as well as no email or Internet. One morning I didn’t even get up until 8 AM but just enjoyed the storm from the hotel. The TIIAA meet at the Tremont House in the old part of town and it had 16-foot ceilings and dark blonde (medium stained) hardwood floors. The weather was just right so no heat or air was required to sleep great.
With Texas being the home of more of our adjusting software users than any state at this point in time, we got to meet with some that have selected us as their preferred vendor plus they were actively encouraging their peers to do like wise that were visiting our booth. Of course you know that made me feel like a proud daddy, which was good for my exhausted state of mind.
Well Jim I am back in the middle of ringing phones and emails but on returning today I learned a group made up of 600 offices across the US wants us to be their preferred vendor of property adjusting software plus another regional IA firm wants the same status. Along with our growing list of carriers that have made us their preferred vendor it is a fact I will need to be more aware of the need for R&R and your and others continual thoughts as we move into the busy season. Thanks again to you and everyone for your prayers as well as phone calls and emails.
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Jim Flynt
Member
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 230
Registered: 6-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 12:20 pm: |
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Gale, I'm glad you have been made aware of your need for some "R & R" and wish you the best in renewing your strength, refreshing your soul and recalibrating your personal gyroscope.
I will leave to Roy without comment, any decisions he wishes to make as to adding managers and general contractors to the CADO staff. Roy is a competent visionary and leader in this industry who does not need my input in realizing the goals and visions he anticipated a long time ago in establishing this wonderful site for our use and enjoyment.
I am sure that with more discretionary time and disposable money Roy could speed up the CADO development process, but Roy, like the rest of us, is limited by the realities of making a living otherwise.
My time is quite limited as well due to numerous unrelated ventures which I am currently involved in, and seemingly yours would appear to be too (yes, I do have a life outside of adjusting).
CADO will continue to not only survive but flourish with or without your or my daily involvement.
Again, my best to you, and I think we will all be better served to return to our own ventures and allow Roy the freedom to do as he sees fit with his own "baby."
(Message edited by Jimflynt on February 28, 2002)
(Message edited by Jimflynt on February 28, 2002) |
Eric Carlson
Registered User
Username: Ecarlson
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 10:06 am: |
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OK Jim Flynt, now that all of the personal business has been cleared up I want to take you to task on your Software 101 post that you sent to Jim Lakes to post. Now I know that it is hard to establish a "tone" when writing so let me just say that I have a great respect for your opinions Jim(I don't often post but I do monitor the forum daily) so I am approaching you as a professional in the adjusting business and I am asking that you respond not solely based upon your personal opinions but in the spirit of providing thorough and accurate information.
My first question is how long has it been since you have thoroughly evaluated PowerClaim? Here is the paragraph from your post that I refer to:
"I have from time to time tried other estimating programs, including free share-ware and off the shelf packages, but find most of them too simple, too cumbersome, or not having competent data bases for pricing catastrophe losses. These programs are usually also not acceptable to the majority of vendors and carriers, and that alone, is reason to steer clear of them. Unfortunately, while I once upon a time loaded and tried PowerClaim, I found that it most appropriately belonged into this category. Of course, that is my opinion, and one with which you have the right to disagree."
In your own words you say "once upon a time..." so I would assume that it has been a little while. Now you also say that you are only expressing your opinion but you sign the post with all of your certifications, etc. so you are presenting yourself as a professional and taking on all of the rights and responsibilities that come from being a professional so I would expect a little more of you than to simply base your opinion on what might be outdated and inferior information. I can concur with you that PowerClaim has started from the bottom up. If it's been even a few months since you looked at PowerClaim you really don't know what PowerClaim has to offer. What other adjusting software out there will accept a First Notice of Loss using an open standard XML file? Before that what other software allowed you to send complete reports via email directly from the software using the standard PDF format? We've been doing that for years and SIMSOL finally followed our lead a few months back. To my knowledge MS/B and Xactimate still require proprietary readers to do the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, you seem to infer that PowerClaim estimates are not acceptable to most carriers. That is false. Our clients have reported to us that they have submitted claims using PowerClaim to every major carrier we know of. Much of the time they are complimented because of the clean output and the ease with which the carriers are able to receive the claims in a paper-less manner using the PDF format. We are gaining new clients daily and many companies are now standardizing on PowerClaim. Vale National is even starting to train on PowerClaim.
Jim, one thing I hope to convince you of is that we are trying to do something good for the industry. Sure our software may have not been great the first few times out but we have made great progress and we continue to drive ourselves to produce software that will provide greater and greater functionality while still only charging a fraction of what the other guys charge. We watch the progress of the other software companies as well and I can confidently say that at our current rate of progress we will be whipping the pants off of the other guys in every feature and ease-of-use category within the next year or so. Of course that will still be subject to individual opinion but I know what we have and I know what we are capable of doing. Also keep in mind that we are doing this on a budget and passing the savings on to the industry.
Jim, I would love to provide you with a current copy of our new release and let you give me and maybe even others on this forum your opinion of our current software. I'm sure you probably still won't be crazy about it given your current opinion of the software but I would like to see if you can at least see some progress being made. We often find that it is the ones who are most critical of our software who give us the best motivation for making our product better so keep it coming! If you want me to send you out a package just respond here or email me at eric@powerclaim.com. I'll even give you a free year or two so you can keep up with our progress.
Thanks,
Eric Carlson
President and Lead Developer
Hawkins Research, Inc.
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Gale Hawkins
Member
Username: Gale
Post Number: 179
Registered: 12-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:16 pm: |
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Thanks Jim for requesting prays for me as well as your sincere post. We are working very hard to get a new release out, video tutorials crated and dealing with the printer over the best way to produce the manual. As often is the case we find last minute snags that have to be worked through has deadlines are missed.
As many know I am in chronic pain from the arthritis and my lack of mobility makes just getting dressed totally energy draining. It is a fact that many others get up each day and successfully struggle against greater odds than I but I am in need of each one’s prayer. As many of you personally know constant physical pain leads to emotional pain especially when you can’t do the things you once did but now find yourself dependent on others when you want to be totally independent.
Jim I know you are no stranger to health issues. I also know you are a leader in your field and when others do not act in the best interest of all it causes you stress. I agree with you that we are all apart of something that is greater than ourselves here on CADO and I will work with you and the rest to see that any action of mine is based on what is best for CADO and not what might seem good for myself. It is a fact if it is good for CADO then it is good for me as well and if it is bad for CADO then long term it is bad for me as well.
In the future if something you or someone else post crosses me I will work to give each the benefit of the doubt and pray if they are under a heavy load that caused their action then that they be granted some relief and if it is just a mean spirit in me causing the problem I will pray that it be cast out.
Roy has laid a good foundation and the right building stuff is on location or will soon show up but we are missing the general contractor that is needed to keep all of the subs working in the right location at the right time. Finally finding that person at HRI is really turning us around but I do not know how we find that person for CADO. In our case it was a hard working female that has been able to stand fast and not be ego driven but yet has the presents to lead the ego driven to act in the organization’s best interest.
Jim do you agree we need to find a manager with the above traits that Roy can work with to see that membership drives, site content, training activities, etc are planned, enacted and accountability be in place. We have got to stop going through the motions and start getting concrete results by putting systems in place that insures results.
Being a voluntary organization makes it a little harder perhaps but when group goals are set then this person has to have the power to remove the non or under performing volunteers and fill their position with another that will. I do know it is not a person of my talents because I could not do it for my own company with everything depending on it.
What do you think Jim and all of the rest? I have witnessed what can happen with the right person in charge and it is exciting. Can we discuss how it can work before we tackle the other side of the coin? CADO is old enough to be doing more than it is today and this is not putting down Roy at all. After all he is the CEO but I expect he knows there is a missing component needed to insure CADO is continually moving forward just as I sensed it at our enterprise.
Well I have a 2 hour drive and 2 hour flight in front of me in a few hours and John P was correct in his post about sleep and R&R for Gale Hawkins. 
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John Durham
Registered User
Username: Johnd
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 10:21 pm: |
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Welcome Back !! |
Jim Flynt
Member
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 229
Registered: 6-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 9:19 pm: |
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John, there is a biblical injunction which tells us "that he who is without sin cast the first stone." (Ghostbuster drilled that lesson into this old half fast Methodist once upon a time).
Roy is correct that I have on many occasions requested the removal of offensive or inappropriate posts which I have made on the Forum as well as the Bulletin Board, which he so graciously granted. No lesser consideration should be granted to others requesting the same in the instant situation.
I will trust to Roy's wise counsel, decisions as to whether the present thread be closed, archived or even removed. No other individual in America has a higher regard for the advancement of the best interests of the catastrophe adjuster and this profession than Roy Cupps. I will support without question whatever course Roy feels is in the best interests of CADO and this profession.
You are not entirely correct John when you suggest that I have never "lost control" in posting. As Roy has said, we all at times are tempted to yield to our baser instincts of anger or impulsivity, and as humans, some of us are more prone to such impetuous acts than are others. As humans we must also learn to not only forgive others, but ourselves as well when we screw up.
It has been said that wisdom comes from experience and that experience comes from making mistakes. In that sense, both Gale and I should be two of the wiser souls who post here.
We are each and every one of us part of something much larger than our individual selves here on CADO. A community of fellow travelers who walk often similar, sometimes parallel, and yet at times different paths along the smooth and rocky roads to our intended destinations.
As adjusters and individuals we are divided by regionalism, geography, sex, age, education, training, skill levels, knowledge, interests, preferences, and the quirky little nuances which make each of us unique among all others on this planet.
We are also united in common pursuit of advancing our profession, expanding our knowledge base, widening the fellowship of our adjusting fraternity, helping others, and working together to make our workplace safer, more secure and more financially rewarding.
That which unites us is much greater than that which divides us.
The few differences which we all from time to time argue, debate, haggle over, nit pick, obsess with, anger over, and every once in a while agree on, only serve in the end to make us think, cause us to see things from a differing perspective, and perhaps even learn from.
I thank each of you for your support and appreciate the many wonderful folks of the highest order who have become my best friends and critics over the years. Our real best friends are those who tell us the truth which is what we need to hear; not that which we might want to hear.
I pray that each of you will remember Gale in your thoughts and prayers and may whatever pain and obstacles he is encountering in his life right now be short lived and made right. I would make the same prayer for any of you with trouble and turmoil in your paths of late. May we all be blessed to always follow the paths with heart.
Let us all now come back together as community to forward the aims of this profession and to work to advance the knowledge, skills and incomes of each and every adjuster of all stripes.
Thanks for listening.
PEACE.
(Message edited by Jimflynt on February 27, 2002)
(Message edited by Jimflynt on February 27, 2002)
(Message edited by jimflynt on February 27, 2002) |
John Durham
Registered User
Username: Johnd
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 7:12 pm: |
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Roy:
I cannot imagine a scenario whereby someone WOULD NOT at some point in time want their post(s) removed. I would venture to say, that Jim has never asked to have his post removed for the same reason that Gail has. I dont believe that Jim has ever "lost control" the way Gail has/did.
If someone is allowed to enter the CADO Forum and disparage others and make long rambeling senseless post(s) ON A REGULAR BASIS then I feel that that individual should have to live with the content of their post.
The thread in question was "stimulated" by the words of Gail Hawkins, not me, or others, only Gail. We simply responded to statements made by Gail. Our response, while moderate in nature, has simply no meaning without his statements as a point of reference.
While Gail did make a "left handed" attempt to apologize to Jim, many of us still feel that it was inadaquate at best.
Roy, I want you to know that ALL of us would fight just as hard if the remarks were/had been directed toward YOU.
Maybe it is time for Jim to give us his opinion on whether this thread should be closed or stay open. I am sure we would all abide by his decision.
I sincerely hope a more proactive approach is made by all who use this fine medium. If we refuse to allow this type of post to go unchallenged, it will prevail, to the detriment of all of us.
And once again let me THANK YOU Roy for providing this forum, you have our respect and admiration for your "labor of love."
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Roy Cupps
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 6:31 pm: |
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John, I don't know if you remember this or not but Jim has in the past requested the removal of his own post more than one time, which I did. I wish people would take more time to think about their post before saving it, so I wouldn't get an email to remove it the next day. Registered users can delete their own post within 30 minutes of making it.
Take Care,
CatAdjuster.org, An Adjuster to Adjuster Community
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D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 6:19 pm: |
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I concur with John Durham wholeheartedly. |
John Durham
Registered User
Username: Johnd
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 5:08 pm: |
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Roy:
No, I do not think that this thread should be closed. Actually, I think it should be restored completely. To remove some post and not others removes the complete chain of events that caused this thread to be as active as it was.
By removing Gail's post, and/or closing this thread, gives tactic approval to someone repeating the process again, possibly even Gail coming back. I do not think you can arbitrarily wipe out the feelings of so many over the rantings of a few. While I do not have any animonisity against Gail, he should be held to the same standard as others have on this board, and his post(s) should stand.
Roy, this is your board, so you will do what you think is best, I have expressed my feelings about this matter, thank you. |
Roy Cupps
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 4:15 pm: |
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Please note a post in this thread made by Gale has been removed at his request. We will always honor a request to move or delete a post as long as the request comes from the author. Vote once if you feel this thread should now be closed.
Take Care,
CatAdjuster.org, An Adjuster to Adjuster Community
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JimLakes
Registered User
Username: Jimlakes
Post Number: 66
Registered: 12-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 12:26 pm: |
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To All,
The following E-Mail was sent to me to be posted on this thread from Jim Flynt.
SOFTWARE 101
As every experienced adjuster would tell you, every adjuster should be aware of as many of the various estimating software packages on the market today.
Most experienced adjusters, have over time, used several of the better known software packages, as well as other lesser known estimating programs. There is no dearth of excellent software packages for adjusters to choose from.
As most adjusters know, the choice of use of software packages is often dictated by either the carrier or vendor, and discretionary choice is not available to the adjuster.
For any adjuster to limit themselves to the sole use of any one estimating software packages would of course severely limit their marketability in servicing portions of the claims pie. The inability of an adjuster to work with just the largest 3 or 4 carriers in America which require specific software, would thus limit the ability of that adjuster to work a majority of the insurance claims market.
I have found through experience that it is necessary for me personally to carry, use, be familiar with, and lease or own several estimating software packages in order to market my services to the largest number of vendors and carriers, which is a function of maximizing my assignments, claims and income.
Some packages work better for me in specific situations or with various specific types of claims.
To me at least, Xactimate works wonders when I am handling larger more complex estimates and when the contractor for the 'other side' uses Xactimate as well. With the old 5.8 Xactimate, I can write estimates faster than with any other program. I was fortunate to have purchased this program a long time ago and it has paid me back several fold. Perhaps the largest number of carriers and vendors require this software and this is another reason why I carry and use this software.
I have long used SIMSOL having purchased the program way back when. SIMSOL is in my opinion the best program out there for handling flood claims and they are leading the way in making excellent software available to the leading edge users with computer tablets and handhelds. Many carriers and vendors require this software and I carry if for those reasons as well.
DDS is perhaps the best reporting and accounting/management software packages available today, but as an estimating program, it is inefficient and to me at least, an assault on my intelligence by way of it's use of exterior and room photos needed to write an estimate. The simple use of this program is easy although much practice or training is needed to master many of the management and accounting tools available with this program. I have this program loaded and use it only when I need the reporting functions or when it is required by a vendor or carrier.
I also carry and use NCE (National Construction Estimator) which is inexpensive and perhaps one of the best estimating programs available when estimating high rise and commercial buildings of concrete and steel construction. More often, I use this program to obtain pricing for hard to price items, and this program is the one used by Vale National in teaching their commercial estimating course, which speaks to the respect they are accorded.
I also maintain the Means cost data base which is similarly excellent with larger and technically complex commercial losses and a great resource for finding those hard to price items.
Mike Stephenson has a program which is especially efficient in handling hail claims and it works especially well for cat adjusters handling claims for GAB as it has the GAB forms preloaded.
I have from time to time tried other estimating programs, including free shareware and off the shelf packages, but find most of them too simple, too cumbersome, or not having competent data bases for pricing catastrophe losses. These programs are usually also not acceptable to the majority of vendors and carriers, and that alone, is reason to steer clear of them. Unfortunately, while I once upon a time loaded and tried PowerClaim, I found that it most appropriately belonged into this category. Of course, that is my opinion, and one with which you have the right to disagree.
Were it a perfect world, each adjuster would try all of the various estimating software packages, and once the 'best fit' for that adjuster was found, he or she could live happily ever after without ever changing software. However, with the changing nature of adjusting, as well as new products coming to the competing marketplace, as well as the specific requirements of current and emerging vendors and carriers, that, as we all know, is not the reality.
In the end, what I think about any specific software is not important at all. What is important is that you explore and find the one or ones best for you, and then learn all that you can so as to maximize your production and income, and become the very best adjuster you can be.
Thanks for listening.
Jim Flynt AIC, CIC, AAI, AIS
(Message edited by jimlakes on February 27, 2002) |
John Durham
Registered User
Username: Johnd
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
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Gale:
While I still do not believe that you have answered my question, I will not persist. However, I want to urge you to get some professional help. Your entire post (2:00 AM) seems geared toward the "poor me syndrome" as you seem ready to blame your problems on everything from old cars to sold farm(s). You ended with a "shot across my bow". Gail, I am not at fault for what you said, only thing I did was bring it to your, and others, attention. I think your "apology" to Jim Flynt was weak, as you had to also preface it with a statement about Jim's intentions on helping others.
I can think of scores of individuals that Jim has helped in a totally unselfish way to become better adjusters. Jim deserves the respect and support of all CADO readers.
Probably some of the best advice you have or will receive regarding this matter comes from John Postova, a super-fine gentleman and a great businessman. You would be well advised to heed his advice. In the crowd I associate with, John Postova is held in highest regard.
Gail, I sincerely hope you seek and obtain the help that you apparently so desperately need.
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Gale Hawkins
Member
Username: Gale
Post Number: 176
Registered: 12-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
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Roy this one of several that I should have never posted. It was late and John D was making a case for a reply but I should not have let him lead me to post where he requested. It is not right to all parties especially Xactimate and you Roy. I was actually sick yesterday and should have never been on CADO at all. If you will pull this and any others you choose I will appreciate it. Thanks to John P for being big help once again. And he is correct on the R&R issue. It is wrong for me to let Jim F’s verbal attacks of others that come to our defense to stress me out. I do apologize to Jim over my remark about him and I am sorry to each reader that my many words offended.I am sorry to each reader that my many words offended. For any that will be at the TIIAA meeting in Galveston I can tell you in person if you will stop by our booth.
(Message edited by gale on February 27, 2002) |
mark salmon
Registered User
Username: Olderthendirt
Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2000
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 11:05 am: |
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Somewhere the real question has been lost. I hope the tech support at xacitmate has improved, many of us do not have a choice but to use it. It does remind me of windows, every version gets bigger and more complicated (although unlike windows I realy do not believe exactimate is spying on us). Many time I have disagreed with JF and my views on xactimate are different then his, but bith Jim and Gale have gotten to personal. If I have an opertuntiy to try Powerclaim I will decide whether I like it based on how it works, not on how articulate it's developer is. I guess that a lot of us are not huge fans of the big X but after the over zealous defence of the product most would be afraid to post. Remember KISS  |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 6:30 am: |
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If bull excrement and horse manure were music, Gale you would be a symphony.
You still didn't give John Durham a STRAIGHT ANSWER to his one simple question.
Shame on you.
For YOUR INFORMATION the Xactimate rep said: Xactimate did not FIRE or lay off ANYONE from their technical staff. Enough of the innuendo and rumors Gale.
How would you like it if a rumor started and spread that Hawkins Research was right before LIQUIDATING and filing for BANKRUPTCY? Perhaps we should explore the RUMORS from that angle?
(Message edited by dwongwhey on February 27, 2002)
(Message edited by dwongwhey on February 27, 2002) |
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