| Author |
Message |
Dale Strain
| | Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 6:36 pm: | |
RJ,
A discussion of "So you want to be an Independent Catastrophe Insurance Adjuster?" also touches upon what you might do as an alternative. And that is how we segued(proceeded without interuption) into a discussion of those alternatives. My post was meant to offer that the alternative of working as a PA was not entirely without merit. It can be done in an honorable fashion.
I was not offended or impeded by your somewhat narrow vision of what this forum is, can or should be. I will continue to post. Feel free to skip my posts. My wife says I talk to much anyway.
Relax and enjoy the company of your peers.
Dale Strain |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 2:30 pm: | |
justhadtodoit
Perhaps you should spend a little more time reading the title of a discussion subject and comprehending what the subject matter is before making the kind of response that you did. For if you read and understood the subject matter you would have realized that the topic of discussion was directed to individuals that are contemplating on becoming a catastrophe adjuster.
No where in the article did I express that my current income was indicative of my current status in relation to the income expectations in the article. Giving from your response it appears that you read through the article very quickly and did not fully understand the message I was trying to convey. So I will attempt to explain to you very briefly the point of the article.
Often individuals enter a profession because of the expectation of what appears to be a high income level. As has been discussed often on this site many times there are individuals in this business that brag about how much money they earn without explaining that it is only a gross amount thus leaving people with a false impression of the true earnings of an independent adjuster.
Bragging about your income will leave false impressions of this profession with individuals contemplating entering this profession and staff adjusters which ultimately review our files. In either case this only damages the image of our profession by creating false illusions with individuals considering adjusting and making staff adjusters have ill feelings towards independent adjusters. This article was intended to act as reinforcement to other articles & information that are available for those that are considering entering our profession by enlightening everyone to the problems that are being created by false images being portrayed by those that brag about their incomes.
I believe that the income level detailed in this article reflects a more accurate depiction of what an average new adjuster could expect in their first Three to Five years in this business. It is only natural that as one gains more experience & knowledge in this business that their incomes would increase as a result of learning how to control their overhead costs & increasing the quality of their work product.
I hope that you now understand the purpose and intent of this article. As for my income and contacts I am at a satisfactory level and no rethinking is necessary. Thank you for your concern. The weather on the other hand which plays a major role in our claim volume and income is another topic we often discuss, however, a topic of which we have no control over. |
justhadtodoit
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:15 pm: | |
Think at the rate RJ makes and spends, I would rather be a little more independent and make more and spend less.
Probably need to re-think your contacts and find a vender that you can make a living working with. |
Tomj (Tomj)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:08 pm: | |
Gale,
I have also noticed and can be labeled as an adjuster who no longer posts. I have given this some thought over the last several weeks and decided that I will continue expressing my thoughts as there are so many out there flying blind.
I hope that many of the missing come back, despite the replies, your input is needed.
Tom T, Chuck, Tom W, Jim, Dave, Linda, and all others, we are very shortly moving into a new year. Talk about a CADO convention is in the air and we need this more than ever! Last count there were about 151 members, less than 10% of cat adjusting community so we as a group have to come together with some common goals. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 9:41 pm: | |
Rj, Welcome to the Internet were we control freaks lose all controls. In group conversations the subject of the conversation at any one given time may be different than it was the minute before. We all are not linear thinkers.
At your house Rj does everyone have to get up a move to another room just because the subject of the conversation changed? Sorry I am not as kind and gentle, as Tom but you just are not being realist in my view. Three days is about max for a subject to stay on the original topic.
Old on top has been tried but was not a near as successful as the way Roy now has it set up. Please do not expect to control others without expecting to create undue stress for all parties including your self. “The trick is learning how to control yourself and carry a thought through to its conclusion without going off in other directions” is your statement I am referring to at this point.
Your posts have great info but not everyone is thick-skinned so they may just never come back to CADO if someone needlessly chastises them. In that case all lose because I can tell you some to the ones that can add the most just do not post.
Keep up the good post but give up trying to control other humans. There is only one person that one can truly control and most just never get serious about controlling that one person.  |
Tomj (Tomj)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 8:54 pm: | |
RJ,
Sorry if you are offended because your pet topic got sidetracked. But, the issue brought up many related topics that experienced cat adjusters were able to comment on.
So, to get to your topic I would suggest refering to Chuck Deaton's Cat 102 which he will provide to anyone who e-mails him. See the numerous articles by Jim Flynt regarding how get started in this business and the necessary education and background needed to have a chance at being successful. Refer to Dave Hood's articles on the attitude, equipment, and fortitude needed to survive in a highly competitive workfield. Most of all read the past postings of many of the experienced cat adjusters who truely make this their profession, not a part time job.
The key is education and experience, not a one week licence school and the fact that you have experience with a saw and hammer. RJ, I hope this is more in line with what your looking for. This year was a tough one on those that rely on cat adjusting for their income, I hope the the market opens up soon.
Tom |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 4:19 pm: | |
Dale Strain, William S Cook, Tom Joyce, R W Smith, Alan Jackson, Red, Gale & others;
I find myself having to begin this discussion over for a third time. Somehow this topic has transformed into a discussion of Public Adjusters. Now please don't take me wrong, I believe that meaningful discussions are taking place and in no way do I wish to discourage anyone from participating. However, it appears that most discussions including this one digresses into unrelated topics. I for one wish you gentlemen will take a little more time in your responses to the subject heading of each discussion and if you feel that you would like to change the subject matter you would do so by creating a new discussion topic.
What appears to be happening is after a few replies to the initial posting have been made you have to scroll down the page from the most recent posting to the original post. After a while someone will make a posting that is unrelated to the original subject topic and instead of scrolling down to the beginning topic the readers are picking up on the last posting which comes up first and then they are making replies to that unrelated topic. Before long all replies to the original though are forever lost. I believe that this is a loss to all of us since many of these discussions are very valuable to all of us and would have additional value if everyone making a reply would confine their responses to the subject matter at hand.
After giving this problem some thought I have a possible solution to the problem that may help us in keeping a discussion on a single topic. The solution would only require a small change in the discussion format. Instead of each discussion beginning from the last posting and then scrolling down to the first (original) posting why not reverse the order. That way every time you go to a discussion you begin by reading the original posting before reading all of the replies. Then if the spirit so moves you to make a reply you will at the very least had to view the original topic at hand and then maybe just maybe the topics can be fully discussed without going off into the wild blue yonder.
I know and realize that a general discussion will almost always include a variety of subjects. Given the vast amount of knowledge and experience that adjusters have, a conversation can go on and on for hours & with some of us days without repeating ourselves, so we do have a natural tendency to go from subject to subject. The trick is learning how to control yourself and carry a thought through to its conclusion without going off in other directions. I know in a cat situation this is impossible to do, however, here on the CADO site that shouldn't be that difficult.
So without further delay I will restart this thread with the following Question;
"So you want to be an Independent Catastrophe Insurance Adjuster"
First of all can you adjust a loss on you own? The field is not a good place to learn on your own.
Quite often individuals get into this business without really exploring the reasons for doing so in the first place. While on the surface the gross income appears to be a very enticing carrot on the stick, those that have been in the business for a considerable amount time know otherwise. This is a business that you have to care about & dedicate your life to if you really have the desire to succeed.
As with any endeavor in life the first thing you must realize & accept is that you will have to make a lot of personal sacrifices. Get use to the idea of being away from home on assignment for months at a time. I have seen assignments last longer than a year. Unlike a company employee you are expected to stay at the assignment location until you are released. Leaving a location even for a day can result in termination of your
contract.
Next thing is that you have to be able to personally finance your expenses for a period of time before realizing any income. You should expect to spend at least $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 before you receive any income from your efforts. Then depending on your vendor, payments could be fast or slow in coming. Pay close attention to
this detail before accepting any assignment. Should you have to leave an assignment early due to lack of your ability to finance your own expenses this could have a serious impact on your income from that or future storm events.
Now that you have established your ability to adjust claims & have the necessary financial resources to see the assignment through to the end, get ready for an emotional roller coaster ride of your life. Between the insureds, vendors, carriers & insurance commissioners you will experience more lies, emotions, half truths and paper work requirements than you could ever imagine. Just when things appear to be under control look out because things do not usually go along real smooth for you when you lack the experience on how to handle situations. There are probably as many different situations as there are insured's, vendors & carriers. In other words if you can handle the stress of this occupation & are a good problem solver you may have a chance to succeed as an independent catastrophe adjuster. Only time will tell.
Another important aspect of this business is your income. Before embarking on this line of work sit down & lay out a budget. In this budget you have to include your on going household expenses while away on assignment. Add to this your on the road expenses. To this you will need to add all additional expenses (personal medical expenses & insurance premiums, car repairs, office supplies & equipment, etc. & of course don't forget the phone bill). If you live a conservative life style your budget may average $6,000.00 +. Keep in mind the + can run as high as an additional $3,000.00 per month & often does. So if you have done your math you will discover that just to break even without having any money to even pay your income taxes you will have to earn as least $108,000.00 a year. With income taxes make it a minimum of $120,000.00. That does not leave you with any spendable cash. Don't forget about mother nature. After all the only time you work is when she is at her worst.
Most years you will probably only work Four to Six months. That will have a very negative impact on your budget & will have an adverse effect on your income as outlined in the following example.
Now to earn $120,000.00 a year a catastrophe adjuster will work 14 to 16 hours a day Seven days a week for at least 48 weeks out of the year. Take an average of 15 hours times Seven days times 48 weeks & that amounts to 5040 hours a year. Dividing $120,000.00 by 5040 equals to just $23.81 per hour. Now 2/3 thirds of this is needed just to pay on the road expenses & income taxes. That will leave you with $7.94 earnings per hour to pay for your home expenses. Now lets say you are lucky & work Five & ½ months out of the year. You have just reduced the net $7.94 per hour to $3.97 per hour. I believe that is a considerably lower per hour real income than most hourly professions make not to mention a salary employee with benefits. Is it any wonder so much complaining about the low fee schedules is currently being made by independent insurance adjusters. Is it any wonder why it really takes dedication by the independent insurance adjuster to stay in this business. Don't be misled by a few who like to boast about their income. They are not telling you the whole truth of the matter.
So I ask the question again "So you want to be an independent insurance adjuster?" Think about it and if you are so inclined please offer your views on this topic. If you should decide in favor I wish you all the luck & good fortune in your pursuit of this profession. |
Dale Strain
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:28 am: | |
Well, here I go, with another unpopular opinion...
Not all PA's are dirtbags, just as not all IA or staffers are, shall we say, less than stellar performers. I have had the experience of working with some very competent PA's. One fellow actually apologized for being a PA, going on to say that he had worked as staff for many years, but, in his 50's, no one but the PA firm would hire him.
Just as with insureds and contractors, we can many times set the tone of our interactions with PA's. I have found that, working with ANYONE, that respectful attitude works wonders.
I am also convinced that, without PA's, attorneys and the like, our industry might not be as responsive as it is. A little tension from the other side keeps us all honest.
I believe that you can't go wrong putting the interest of the insured client first...that is how you protect the carriers' interests as well. Pay what you owe and sleep at night (it's not always the easy path, and has caused me to often be a pain in the butt to many managers or teenage "reinspectors").
My two cents.
Dale Strain |
William S Cook
| | Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:36 am: | |
From the PA side of the fence the green grass still has to have a catastrophe to grow. Why would storm-troopers/PAwannabes think that magically claims will appear now that they wear a hat from the "darkside". They must also meet higher state licensing requirements than emergency storm troopers. To maintain annual license,insurance and bonds in the ocean fronting states and the Caribbean is a bummer when the hurricanes fizzle or land on an area where insurance is not an option. One must be willing to ride out the long periods between paydays, which will not come until the claim is resolved. I have been on both sides of the fence for many years and the lean years are just as lean on this side of the fence. Some adjusters present a very credible work product and a professional PA can not improve the settlement figures to justify a fee. The skills and training for a PA must exceed the talents of the handling adjuster or additional payments could not be confirmed or justified to insurers. It is a strange set of circumstances when a competent clean-up adjuster resolves problem claims or finds overlooked and underpaid claims he is a hero adjuster. The exact same issues found and presented by a competent PA are thought to be gouging or fraudulent even though they are the very same issues.
All that said it is a I loved it when I was a storm trooper. I have paid my dues on both sides of the fence and like many others in this industry I am waiting on the next one because I love the industry and the challenges presented.
William S Cook |
Tom Joyce
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 10:01 pm: | |
Hello Gale, Hope the trade show was kind to you. RW and Alan, you have a valid point. We are licensed, certified, stamped and approved, but not expected to offer our experience except to those carriers and vendors who wish to play games with billing and assignments. What many do not take the time to read is the state license agreement where it outlines duties owed to an insured. We have to inform the insureds of all coverages available and pursue the claim in their best interest. As an independent you are not only the insurance companies rep but also the policy holder's advocate. Right now times are rough, but let us all keep a perspective on our jobs, and what we are there for. |
Rwsmith (Rwsmith)
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 9:11 pm: | |
Ajackson. I couln't agree with you more. |
ajackson
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 6:17 pm: | |
Job satisfaction is very important. However, food, clothes, shelter and being able to sleep at night are also important.
Just another point to ponder. |
Red (Red)
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 5:00 pm: | |
Gale:
For those that are switching or are seriously thinking of moving to the PA side of the fence there is a couple of issues that should be seriously considered.
1. If they switch to PA their chances of moving back to the adjuster side will be extremely difficult if not impossible. The carriers will see to it, if the vendors miss it, I can assure you that the carriers won't want the adjuster to work any of their claims. So they may want to be
willing to say goodbye to adjusting forever.
2. If adjusters switch it would appear that their money making is the main thing on their mind. Which says they are in it for not all the right reasons. There is more to this job than just the money. The real adjusters all know what they are they don't have to be told in a forum. One of the main ones though is the sense of real satisfaction in doing a job right. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 11:31 am: | |
NotAdj4Food.Yet you touched on a sensitive issue for some. We are in our fifth year of working with IA’s and for the first time ever, over the past couple months I have spoken with a few Cat adjusters seriously considering moving to the PA world. That would indicate to me there are many others thinking the same way but are not talking about it.
Are there issues besides income that would make long-term adjusters consider moving to the other side of the fence? |
NotAdj4Food.Yet
| | Posted on Thursday, October 05, 2000 - 4:36 pm: | |
Yes it can get worse. With the Big 3 doing more hiring of employees, this will displace the IA's that previously relied on the Big 3 for Cat work. There is always roof sales or the "other side of the fence" |
SWAK
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 9:27 am: | |
Just remember "Eightball" that you are not the only one out there experiencing this right now. As someone has said under another post, this has been a real bleak year for most adjusters. In my humble opinion, the "average" catastrophe adjuster has not even been sent out on a SINGLE assignment all year. Other than a fairly good size storm in Chicago and a few small hail storms here and there, this has been one of the slowest years for catastrophe adjusters in recent memory.
It has to get better. It can't get any worse. |
eightball
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 2:05 am: | |
I only want to work about 6 or 7 months of the year, I love the travel and the challenge. As an "NEWBIE" trying to get into this profession I am dismayed that the companies to which you submit your name when a potential crisis arises and then flops don't have the decency to acknowledge your application. You almost always have to leave your name and number on someone's voicemail system because they are busy rounding up adjusters. I am truthfull about being a newbie but list my vast experience in related fields etc.
Common decency would think that they would at least acknowledge your interest in working with them, but now you get dick all. I have been keeping a list and I will be an experienced adjuster one day and when they call I shall give them the same consideration. |
Darrell Wyont
| | Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 1:50 pm: | |
I agree how difficult it is to make a consistent income doing cat work but I might add one additional problem, that being I.R.S.! I have had problems with auditers understanding temporary employee, independent contractor, and allowing deductions that are more than realistic. I have discussed problems with C.P.A.s and they cannot even agree on how to handle income and expense questions. Just thought I might throw a little something out there to worry about! I sometimes think I may love pain and suffering, but I love the travel and adventure! |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 12:09 am: | |
I can't send you Cat 102 without your email address. Email me. |
Kelley (Kelley)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2000 - 9:07 pm: | |
Chuck, Some of us feel that we should receiver Cat102 "just because", did not know we had to ask. Please Please Please ! ! ! ! Thank YOu |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 9:55 am: | |
Cat 102 is still free. Email me and I will email it to you. It is a primer on this business. |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 2:53 am: | |
Old Dog: I originally began this discussion to inject some resemblance to reality in the life of a catastrophe adjuster. As with any writing there will always be exceptions to the norm. Congratulations to you if in deed you are as successful as you say you are. Several postings were made that were aimed at those adjusters that bragged about how much money they were making. Sure while the gross amount seems high to someone looking from the outside in, the gross amount in reality after taking everything into account is not that great when everything you go through is taken into consideration. You have stated that you have 30 plus years in this business, well after 30 plus years I should hope you would be at the top of your profession. Now take a moment and reflect on the title of this thread line "So you want to be a catastrophe adjuster". After 30 plus years in this business you should have written thousands of reports, therefore, you should be able to read & understand that this was directed to someone exploring the idea of getting into this business and not someone with 30 plus years in the business. Someone getting into this business should not begin with the idea of making the level of income that an individual with 30 plus years should be making. That is why I detailed a more realistic view of reality of what someone looking at this profession for the first time most likely will experience. If anything I sugar coated the profession for the beginner. For a beginner if after reading my description of this profession still has the desire & will power to enter the profession with their eyes wide open then that individual may stand a chance at succeeding in this profession. Then those individuals that come into this profession under these circumstances may do a lot in improving the quality of adjusters in this profession. |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 12:12 am: | |
I think RJ was trying to be realistic in painting a true picture for the "average" adjuster. Just look around if you don't believe we are all at the mercy of the weather. No matter how "good" or "experienced" you are, when there is nothing going on, it can be tough on even the best adjusters. Yes, there are many good adjusters with incomes that exceed that which was shown by RJ's example. But there are also lots of newer adjusters or one peril adjusters who are not even performing income wise at the level he outlined. I think in the end, he was saying, and I agreed, that when one hears all the talk from some adjusters, they are hearing only the gross income amounts, without taking into consideration the cost of carrying two households: the one back at home and the one here on the road. Please feel free to share your disagrement with RJ or myself. |
Old Dog
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 2:41 pm: | |
Congratulations!!!! you've proven once again you can juggle #'s to prove anything,,, and you've learned the "half truths" good too....I've been an adjuster (very successful I might add) for 30+ years and can't really see realistic credibility in any of this,,,bet you're good at closing claims!!!! w/those magic #s. Are you trying to discourage others??? Maybe these figures apply to you and others,, but they certainly don't relate to me in any way,,,,Come-on,,,,,If you want start a discussion, let be more realistic. |
DaveB
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 8:18 pm: | |
After reading Rj's math example, no wonder peanut butter is such a mainstay of my diet! |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 4:31 pm: | |
RJ, I agree with you 100%. Very well said and must reading for anyone considering a change in occupation. |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 12:52 pm: | |
Replies to my previous posting on this topic went off into unrelated topics, therefore, perhaps we should begin again. So you want to be an Independent Catastrophe Insurance Adjuster First of all can you adjust a loss on your own? The field is not a good place to learn on your own. Quite often individuals get into this business without really exploring the reasons for doing so in the first place. While on the surface the gross income appears to be a very enticing carrot on the stick, those that have been in the business for a considerable amount time know otherwise. This is a business that you have to care about & dedicate your life to if you really have the desire to succeed. As with any endeavor in life the first thing you must realize & accept is that you will have to make a lot of personal sacrifices. Get use to the idea of being away from home on assignment for months at a time. I have seen assignments last longer than a year. Unlike a company employee you are expected to stay at the assignment location until you are released. Leaving a location even for a day can result in termination of your contract. Next thing is that you have to be able to personally finance your expenses for a period of time before realizing any income. You should expect to spend at least $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 before you receive any income from your efforts. Then depending on your vendor, payments could be fast or slow in coming. Pay close attention to this detail before accepting any assignment. Should you have to leave an assignment early due to lack of your ability to finance your own expenses this could have a serious impact on your income from that or future storm events. Now that you have established your ability to adjust claims & have the necessary financial resources to see the assignment through to the end, get ready for an emotional roller coaster ride of your life. Between the insureds, vendors, carriers & insurance commissioners you will experience more lies, emotions, half truths and paper work requirements than you could ever imagine. Just when things appear to be under control look out because things do not usually go along real smooth for you when you lack the experience on how to handle situations. There are probably as many different situations as there are insured's, vendors & carriers. In other words if you can handle the stress of this occupation & are a good problem solver you may have a chance to succeed as an independent catastrophe adjuster. Only time will tell. Another important aspect of this business is your income. Before embarking on this line of work sit down & lay out a budget. In this budget you have to include your on going household expenses while away on assignment. Add to this your on the road expenses. To this you will need to add all additional expenses (personal medical expenses & insurance premiums, car repairs, office supplies & equipment, etc. & of course don't forget the phone bill). If you live a conservative life style your budget may average $6,000.00 +. Keep in mind the + can run as high as an additional $3,000.00 per month & often does. So if you have done your math you will discover that just to break even without having any money to even pay your income taxes you will have to earn as least $108,000.00 a year. With income taxes make it a minimum of $120,000.00. That does not leave you with any spendable cash. Don't forget about mother nature. After all the only time you work is when she is at her worst. Most years you will probably only work Four to Six months. That will have a very negative impact on your budget & will have an adverse effect on your income as outlined in the following example. Now to earn $120,000.00 a year a catastrophe adjuster will work 14 to 16 hours a day Seven days a week for at least 48 weeks out of the year. Take an average of 15 hours times Seven days times 48 weeks & that amounts to 5040 hours a year. Dividing $120,000.00 by 5040 equals to just $23.81 per hour. Now 2/3 thirds of this is needed just to pay on the road expenses & income taxes. That will leave you with $7.94 earnings per hour to pay for your home expenses. Now lets say you are lucky & work Five & ˝ months out of the year. You have just reduced the net $7.94 per hour to $3.97 per hour. I believe that is a considerably lower per hour real income than most hourly professions make not to mention a salary employee with benefits. Is it any wonder so much complaining about the low fee schedules is currently being made by independent insurance adjusters. Is it any wonder why it really takes dedication by the independent insurance adjuster to stay in this business. Don't be misled by a few who like to boast about their income. They are not telling you the whole truth of the matter. So I ask the question again "So you want to be an independent insurance adjuster?" Think about it and if you are so inclined please offer your views on this topic. If you should decide in favor I wish you all the luck & good fortune in your pursuit of this profession. |
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