| Author |
Message |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 7:32 pm: | |
Tom & Chuck;
I was not directing my response so much to Chuck as I was the carrier & vendors. From Chuck's posting I gathered that Chuck is well experienced. However, I did not realize Chuck was working for a vendor & he was reviewing files for the vendor prior to submission to the carrier.
Just the same, good adjusters do not produce a poor work product. For it is the work product that will tell you if the adjuster is good or not. As long as the carriers & vendors are only concerned about lowering the fee schedules, volume of fast file closings & not the quality of the work product my statement stands on its own merit.
Maybe the vendor Chuck is working for should look a little closer at the ability of the adjusters they hire. This would make Chuck's job easier. I have billed T & E a lot and at times prefer this method of billing. However, most IA's don't know how to bill T & E. It is sort of a lost art if you know what I mean.
My wife & I are both licensed, flood certified & qualified adjusters. We have traveled the entire country working hurricanes, earthquakes, ice storms, floods, fires, hail storms, noreasters & everyday business. After a few of our files are turned in our files are rarely ever reviewed. We take pride in our work product and don't understand the vendor's & carrier's acceptance of the kind of files that Chuck describes. Chuck is right about the kind of work product he is reviewing we have also seen it on many occasions. However, when a disaster hits guess who are generally the first ones placed on assignment. If you guessed the adjuster that produces a poor work product real fast then you guessed right.
I have to agree with Chuck & Tom about their disgust with adjusters that produce poor work. However, what can we do about it so long as this is what most vendors & carriers are looking for. Unfortunately, pride in one's own work is very low on the qualities that most vendor's & carriers are looking for. Fortunately, I work for vendor's & carriers that still hold the adjuster to a higher standard & will compensate properly for a job done well.
As an inside claims examiner/adjuster I am sure that not all of the files Chuck is receiving from field adjusters is of poor quality. It would be interesting though if Roy could create a poll in a spread sheet format that would allow inside adjusters to rate the percentage of good adjuster reports vs the percentage of bad adjuster reports without naming adjusters, vendors or carriers. A time limit or storm event could be set. Over time a comparison then could be made as to the different types of disaster events. We may have an out come that would show the strengths & weaknesses of the adjuster community. |
Paul Bagnato
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 6:32 pm: | |
Well folks I need to agree with Chuck in respect to the IA's. I also need to play the Devils advocate and mention that I had recently finished an audit on closed files for a major carrier and the staff adjusters are the ones that need the schooling. I am not condemning all of'em. Many of the losses were properly written and settled, although many of the losses were settled on an estimate that was written on, I kid U not, a Post it Note.
I would have rather reviewed the losses from the IA then the staff. The quality of the examination was poor in regards to the staff. The IA claims were on a higher scale then the staff. But then again the staff did not work till the wee hours of the night nor any weekends. |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 4:49 pm: | |
Many field hands have, on occasion, taken a position on the inside to sustain themselves.
Several have posted , in the forums, over the years, and sad to say, the commentaries have been quite similar to those of Chuck.
Presently , I know of at least 5/6 associates that are true adjusters, that are in a similar position as is Chuck, "on the inside" and the reports from them are alarming.
Conversely. there have been recent occasions where an "inside desk adjuster" has forayed into the field and their product has been alarmingly poor. There are differences in doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs, as there are in our field.
Just because one is capable in ONE facet of the trade, does not mean they are equally capable in another.
Perhaps a suggestion to "Know what we are, more importantly, know what we are NOT" will influence some to choose carefully their options.
All occupations take time, training, and most of all experience to become proficient, and no matter how long one is practicing, there can always be room for improvement. |
Tom Toll
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 3:02 pm: | |
RJ
If you were not aware of who Chuck Deaton is, let me explain. He is an independent contractor who has been retained by a leading IC to act on their behalf to assist with inside adjusting matters. I have known Chuck for a number of years and have found him extremely competent and knowledgeable and one who has a very large brainbase of insurance knowledge. If he is condemning outside adjusters for their total unawareness of what is going on, then you may be rest assured that the outside IA's don't have a clue to what they are doing. I have been butting heads with IA's for forty years and find that too many do not have the knowledge to be considered adjusters. The "need for greed" is their quest, not professionalism and pride in product. These IA's need to attend Vale Tech, Pacesetters, or some other training facility and then, and only then, they can consider themselves professional adjusters. Wearing an adjuster badge does not make you an adjuster. |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 2:38 pm: | |
RJ, you completely missed my message. I am not working for a "large" carrier and nothing we do is on a "fee schedule" Everything we do is on T & E at the rate set by the independent. We pay a premium and most of what we get from "experienced" adjusters is still "worse than worthless".
This company is dependent on Independents, as it does not have an outside claims staff. |
Rj (Rj)
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 2:02 pm: | |
Chuck:
You have summed up the results of carriers reduction of fee schedules. Independent Adjusters that know the business know they can hardly make expenses with many of these low fee schedules. Therefore, they (the carriers &/or vendors) are only able to find warm bodies to handle many of their claims.
Until the carriers realize that they not only need the temporary services of Independent Adjusters, the Independent adjusters (IA) they hire need to know what they are doing, the poor quality of work product will be the norm. The knowledgeable adjusters are being more selective of the assignments they are accepting. While the volume carrot being dangled in front of the vendors is still attractive to the vendors the IA's are no longer looking at just empty claim volume promises & small incomes.
You stated that you are working for a carrier that writes nationally. Large carriers as of late have been the leaders in the industry in the promotion of lower fee schedules. The attitude is take it or leave it, we can find someone else. Well, they found them (someone else) and now you complain about the quality of their poor work product. Well the carriers made their bed and if you choose to work for them you will have to learn to live with it. So pay the IA and quit complaining. The carrier is getting exactly what it is paying for. If they are satisfied with it you should be.
Eventually the carriers will realize that hiring unqualified adjusters & repair contractors to adjust their claims will destroy their business. When this happens corrections will be made and these carriers will once again raise the fee schedules in order to bring back good adjusters. Of course all of this will go out the window when the big one hits and then anyone regardless of their background will be hired to adjust claims. If you think you are reviewing files that are less than worthless now just wait until then. |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 9:08 am: | |
As previously noted, I am working inside, as an examiner/inside adjuster, handling problem property and heavy casualty files nationally, and I can say that the IA/Cat adjuster files that come to my desk are generally worse than worthless. I have dismissed franchisees, independents and company people alike. As bad as I hate it I have been forced to refuse any payment on some adjusters work.
Should you wonder why independents have problems getting their bills paid, you should see the load of unmitigated crap that comes across my desk. Some independents have the gall to write an incorrect estimate, go back out to correct it, screw the correction up so bad that a roofing expert has to be hired, I have to handle the file with the insured and then the independent submits a bill for the original estimate, which was wrong, then bill for the time it took him to make the mess worse and then I have to pay the roofing expert. I spend hours on a minor flat roof claim, the insured is angry, we pay an inflated bill to the independent, pay the roofing expert and lose the account which makes the agent mad. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2000 - 10:22 pm: | |
As an update, the “Inside Adjuster” program must be a successful trend at some carriers. In speaking with one carrier that writes nationwide, I recently learned their “Inside Adjuster” claim limit is now $7500. Large losses are still handled by staff adjusters and the middle of the road claims get farmed out to IA’s by regional Claims Managers. |
Lambort (Lambort)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
To be or not be !
fear no evil see no evil!
life is not so rough!
more words with no real directions!
The inside adjuster the outside adjusters better estimating software it all ads up to a better life for all the parties involved.
Information , communication and education for Gale and all the CADO readers.
Theres nothing to fear but yourself
Build it and they will come!
on on on on !
long winded words without feelings!
Eric Lambort |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 7:41 pm: | |
Jim thanks for explaining the rock thing. |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 3:56 pm: | |
Gale, I did not mean to infer nor imply that you, John or Dave were throwing rocks. What I was trying to impart is the feeling of many cat adjusters as well as inside adjusters of mutual mistrust and lack of respect for the work each does.
Secondly, yes I not only agree that change is coming, but I see it coming from every different direction on a daily basis. I also see change accelerating in quantity exponentially as well as the totality of impact. It is the one aspect of cat adjusting which particularly fascinates as well as excites me. Years ago I had the opportunity to meet and talk with Alvin Tofler and I have read all of the books by Faith Popcorn. I would commend both writers to anyone interested in visions of the future.
Finally, Roy and I, as well as a few others have been talking about CADO offering online interactive learning courses for some time. I can tell you that I have no higher priority personally than to see and make that happen. It just takes time, and unfortunately, we have to work claim assignments to feed our families and our needs as well as everyone else. But I can tell you, it is going to happen and it is going to happen through the efforts and support of CADO and our readers, members and Sponsors. And, to my way of thinking at least, it cannot happen quick enough.
I would suggest to you that CADO will have online interactive courses within the next 12 months.
And, I also suggest, it will be equal to or supercede the quality you could find in any other educational offering from any source. That is my personal promise to you.
I hope this gives you a better idea of my thoughts and I hope I did not offend anyone with the comment about rock throwing. It was meant more figuratively than literally. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 3:04 pm: | |
Jim thanks for cutting to the chase. How can CADO play an immediate and long term role in providing the majority of Cat adjusters an simple and perhaps no cost interactive training courses like the carriers provide for the inside staff.
Perhaps some of the carriers would be willing to underwrite the cost and provide a link to CADO so the ones that are truly interested staying in the business can educate them selves so they can become true adjusters instead of just knowing how to scope the loss.
Just 3 days ago I was speaking with an old regional adjusting firm owner in an adjoining state that wants to grow so his firm can better compete with all the new nationwide IA firms being created today. He said there were 3 Cat adjusters in his town that he as tried to use on different occasions through the years but even when he had true Cat work for them they just could not turn in a product he did not have to rework before he could in good faith hand the files to the carrier.
Jim according to this guy the lead player in his area, scoping is less than 10% of what an IA does but nearly 100% of what a typical Cat adjuster thinks is required. If I named the Cat companies that use these adjusters everyone would recognize the vendors. As John pointed out, the performance of some Cat vendors is one reason less official Cats are being declared. The carriers have to control their cost and they cannot do it without knowledgeable adjusters.
Back to the subject of education, just yesterday Eric showed me a website that offered a free web based course to get ones MSCE (Microsoft Certified Engineer) designation. Of course someone developed it and was hosting the site but it is free to the individual that wants to take the course. Can you contact some carriers and see if something like this could be done for anyone that is interested in developing into the adjuster that will be in demand in the years ahead?
As for stone throwing I do not think that was the true intent of John or anyone else. John was just stating what he knew first handed. Anytime you see another vendor taking more than they are giving it can be frustrating. Your point on education and Murphy’s and others points on adjusting software needs is the keys as I see it. Of course Dave’s points on the misunderstandings between management and the troops may always be a frustrating issue.
As you know John and I agree that major change is coming and that the new “INSIDE ADJUSTER” is going to be faster and more efficient in handling the large number of small losses. I just thing it is going have more impact on the work a day world of the IA and Cat adjuster, even the "professional" Cat and non-Cat adjusters may be negatively impacted if they do not flow with the changes that are upon the industry. Jim do you not agree that major change is coming? |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 10:28 am: | |
May I suggest that "cat adjusters" whether they be "professional cat adjusters" or not, serve the insurance industry in an overflow capacity. As the Chairman of Cunningham Lindsey noted in a speech to the London Insurance Institute last Fall, we (cat adjusters) are the "adjusters of last resort."
The insurance industry cannot afford to maintain the personnel on payroll for those times when claim demands are excessive due to natural catastrophes, and then let them sit around twiddling their thumbs when there is little work demand. Hence, that is where cat and temporary adjusters come into play.
Twice this past week, I became aware of situtations where insurance carriers were looking for cat adjusters to handle 4 to 6 week temporary assisgnments "in house" while their regular staff was on vacation or in the other circumstance where an employee had left for greener pastures.
I think Chuck, John and I would suggest that inside claims representatives handling small claims are not the same as examiners who know policy, know process, and send claim assignments out to field adjusters and then review the finished product for errors before payment.
As John said, this has always been the case, and it always will be. Examiners and inside small claim telephone representatives are as necessary for the proper functioning of insurance markets as are catastrophe and field adjusters.
What you will find is that most of the inside claims representatives and certainly almost all of the examiners are or have been enrolled in the INS Program which is consists of three policy courses as well as at least the AIC Program which consists of 4 course for policy and procedure. Generally speaking, you will not find the same dedication and requirement for personal and professional educational development among catastrophe adjuster personnel. And quite honestly, it shows in lack of knowledge and poor work product too. That is why I suggested the real number of qualified professional catastrophe adjusters is so low. Just because someone has been doing this for 20 years does not make them a professional. It means to me that without training and education, they have been doing it wrong for one year times 20.
Instead of throwing rocks at them and vice versa, let's all learn to work together to accomplish the same goals. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 1:14 am: | |
If one is to believe this graphic if it post, you will see we are a cost center that will continue to be reduced where possible. As Chuck, John and others have pointed out there as been “examiners” for a long time and Chuck described very well what this group of employees do at the carrier where he is at currently. As Chuck explained they are a very important part of the process of settling the claims. Actually they increase the demand for experienced field adjusters as Chuck to work inside for a change.
Chuck after you see the ad that John is running you will realize that the “examiners” you describe and the “Inside Adjuster” that John is describing are as different as different as night and day. That is not to say the “Inside Adjuster” will not put on the “examiner” hat from time to time but it will be much harder for the “examiner” to put on the “Inside Adjuster” hat.
John you are dead on when you wrote, “Inside adjusting has its place and will continue to thrive and improve as time goes on.” If the graph above post well, it is easy to see why reducing claims processing costs will be a big issue in the carriers’ board rooms for years to come. Your INSIDE ADJUSTER WIZARD is a brilliant idea and its time has come. It is the “having one’s cake and eating it too” issue that you raised in the minds of some of the CADO viewers that can lead to a difference of opinions.
You stated, “The INSIDE ADJUSTER ASSISTANT contains Simsol’s exclusive INSIDE ADJUSTER WIZARD that literally “walks” new claims reps through their first property damage estimates.” in your ad. For this discussion we will take the position that your product works as it is promoted because most today realize that interactive training is the wave of the future.
Now more on the cake thing! John in a post you stated, “Inside claims reps handle a large amount of SMALL claims faster and more efficiently - allowing professional cat adjusters to focus on the LARGER, more complicated losses.” Perhaps some that know more than I would argue that point but I tend to agree, at least in principle. Perhaps the key here is your use of “professional cat adjusters”.
Nearly a year ago Chuck and Dave made a case for there being less than 300 “professional cat adjusters” and Jim said it may be more like 100. We all know that this 100-300 group of adjusters will work if a Cat develops that creates larger, more complicated losses. We also know some carriers in a Cat situation moves the “Inside Adjuster” cap from $2500 to $5000 to help quickly reduce the number of open claims, making both the insured and insurance commissioner happy.
Back to your ad where you state, “Property, contents and even small CAT losses can be settled with verifiable costs on the FIRST CALL! (Just think of the cost savings and customer satisfaction!)” Since you also posted, “The product is only marketed to Insurance Carriers and TPA's and is great for writing smaller estimates.” I gather the savings goes to the carriers and TPA’s.
The fact your product is designed to “close” the claim on the first call makes your “Inside Adjuster” very different from Chuck’s “examiners” who are just a part of the claims handling process, not the law, the jury and the judge which better describes your “Inside Adjuster”.
John you have a great product that is designed with the intend of taking “new hires” and quickly get them to “settling property losses over the phone” and “even small CAT losses” “on the FIRST CALL!” You state, “Inside claims reps handle a large amount of SMALL claims faster and more efficiently”. We all know 5 – 15 line items will catch a bulk of claims that both IA’s and Cat adjusters handle which could make these claims fall under your definition of “SMALL claims” where your “Inside Adjuster” is “faster and more efficient” I read.
John how in the blazes to you think this new generation of adjusting software is not going to greatly impact the number of IA’s and Cat adjusters when the bulk of losses in the US fall in the “SMALL claims” category. The carriers as well as you and I know this “Inside Adjuster” can be brought on board in the $8 –12 per hour range.
The carriers are clear in action and in word that they are going to declare fewer Cats and both manage and man the losses themselves with the aid of local IA’s. Then John you publicly state, “Inside adjusting is a great training ground for new employees who want to move up to field adjuster status.” so what are the Cat adjusters and Cat vendors that do not fall into your “professional” classification to think? What about that IA’s out in the middle of no where that are surviving off of “SMALL claims” that are only 5 – 15 line items in length and under $2500.
John in your world you may not realize it but in my world I can tell you it will affect even some “professional adjusters”. I am not saying the “unprofessional adjusters and vendors” should stay around. I gather when you posted, “Inside claim handling has been increasing over the last few years for many reasons. One of these reasons is that managers got tired of paying some national independent firms adjusting service bills that were sometimes as much or more than the claim they were estimating.” means you feel the “unprofessional” adjusters and vendors have actually driven this move to the “INSIDE ADJUSTER” which ironically means they are bring about their own demise.
As most agree I think, if fewer cats are declared and more of the small, run of the mill everyday losses and small cat losses are handled by the “INSIDE ADJUSTER” this will have a major affect on the entire adjusting community.
John I believe regardless what you may say about this trend towards the “INSIDE ADJUSTER” that you stated has been occurring over the past few years, that the “professional” Cat adjusters and vendors will suffer and here is my thinking.
If the carriers stay the course and declare fewer Cats then the down times are going to be longer for the Cat community which means some of those that depend having claims to eat may be forced to go inside or change vocations. This could lead to a negative feedback loop where the carriers will have no choice but to man the future Cat losses because the number of Cat adjusters and vendors will have decreased.
What then, a “new” trend where the “INSIDE ADJUSTERS” get canned and become IA’s and Cat adjusters and “INSIDE ADJUSTER” managers start new Cat companies?
What about these new “nationwide” adjuster networks springing up with new venture capital behind them? Are there not really going to be any “INSIDE AJUSTERS” after all but they will all just be employees of some adjustertemps.com?
Who is going to be the winners and the losers? I will bet on the rubber balls instead of the glass rods. They may get smashed out of shape a lot but they will bounce back  |
Jim (Jim)
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 10:48 am: | |
I agree with John Postova 100%. |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 8:19 am: | |
Gale, you are correct in your definition of my situation. However, I work with company employees who are called "examiners" In fact they are "inside adjusters." They receive new claims, set them up, refer them to a local independent for appraisal and conclude the claim, over the telephone with the claimant or insured. They review the independents work and pay bills. For the most part the work done by the local independent is actually worse than worthless.
As a side light most of the independents do not use a computerized estimating system.
More because of the location of the company than anything else, these "examiner/inside adjusters" are, for the most part, local people who were hired to fill the position. Generally they are retired police officers, ex nurses, veterans of the armed forces and others who, over a long period of time, have been promoted from secretarial positions. Most have little or no computer training. |
Johnp (Johnp)
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 9:04 am: | |
From the posts on this thread it appears that some cat adjusters are fearful that inside claims reps can somehow replace a professional cat adjuster. Inside adjusting has gone on for decades and can never replace professional field adjusting. Inside reps typically handle losses under $2,500.00 (the average claim is closer to $1,000.00) and try to settle losses on the first or second call. Inside adjusting is a great training ground for new employees who want to move up to field adjuster status. Many claims units contain inside adjusters who were once outside adjusters who either didn't want to retire to the cat side or who just got tired of their outside stresses. Inside claim handling has been increasing over the last few years for many reasons. One of these reasons is that managers got tired of paying some national independent firms adjusting service bills that were sometimes as much or more than the claim they were estimating.
On the cat side, our firm along with some others, has been providing inside adjusting services to our clients for the last few years. Adjusters who elect to do this work are either seasoned cat adjusters who can no longer handle climbing roofs and inspecting risks or don't want to work as only examiner/supervisors. These adjusters may not make large per diems but can bring home 2-3 hundred dollars per day. The fact that these adjusters have been handling inside claims for the last few years has not affected the amount of "outside" claims available to the professional catastrophe adjusting industry.
Inside claims reps handle a large amount of SMALL claims faster and more efficiently - allowing professional cat adjusters to focus on the LARGER, more complicated losses. Smart carriers see the benefits and the dangers of both methods of claims-handling. Ultimately, IMHO, I believe everyone benefits especially the policyholder - the individual for which we all earn our livelyhoods.
In the end, nothing can replace an insurance carrier placing "two trained eyes" on a loss - not a software program, not digital photos from the insured, and certainly not the Internet or any other future technology. Inside adjusting has its place and will continue to thrive and improve as time goes on. |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 2:38 pm: | |
What is an “Inside Adjuster” is a question I received this past week. Most every post on this thread has a quality of depth and I see two different important issues surfacing which I will try to touch on later when time permits.
Chuck is NOT an “Inside Adjuster”. Chuck is an adjuster that happens to be working on the inside. Think about it, does Chuck really need a “Wizard” because he is currently working on the inside to know how to adjust property losses? No.
The “Inside Adjuster” as defined in the minds of carriers that will be buying the Simsol Wizard and other similar products that will emerge is totally different. We are talking a pay rate of more like $400 per week, NOT per day. Preferably the “Inside Adjusters” know nothing about adjusting so they will not “fight” the software other wise they will not be very trainable.
“Adjuster Tech” is a more correct term but marketing wise I agree “Inside Adjuster” sounds better but please do not think in terms of “Adjuster” when you hear the term “Inside Adjuster”.
I think you can see what the inside adjuster/adjuster technician can do to cut direct cost by reducing the number of $40-60K staff adjusters and/or free them up to work CATS in the field which in many cases will keep the carrier from calling in an outside cat crew in the future with the use of the $18-24K adjuster “technicians” help on the home front.
This new class of adjuster techs will become very proficient with time as more artificial intelligence is added to the “adjusting” software tools. Professional adjusters will continue to be around but their numbers will not grow as adjusting demands grow.
More and more low skill jobs are being eliminated in our economy today due to improved productivity and some of this group will jump on the band wagon to make $10-12 an hour in a controlled environment year round especially since it does not involve any physical labor.
What if you were a bright, intelligent person that somehow found you were a single mom with four kids and trying to make ends meet by working the evening shift at Wal-Mart?
Another advantage is the “Adjuster Techs” can be hired as temps for 6-12 months so the carrier or TPA knows who is the most productive and effective on the phone at settling property, contents and small CAT losses on the first call.
Am I for or against this? It makes “no never mind” because the carriers that survive the “New Economy” will have to embrace this and other cost cutting measures because premiums are under attack on all fronts. Murphy is on target with her post on software features needed to make a true “Adjuster” as productive as possible. Later. |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 2:31 pm: | |
That's just it...
Increasingly, the Suits DO THINK that they don't need us because they are either non-claims people, or corporate ladder climbers, or a big quarterly profit seekers and then get a job up the road type. I honestly question if the concept of long term thinking is in use anymore.
What gets my goat roasted is here we are with expensive, state of the art equipment and skills and our customers pooh-pooh it and want to pay us like it was 1965, and then expect us to be ever so grateful!
What a joy, what a joy! |
Murphy (Murphy)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 12:29 pm: | |
and they think they don't need us anymore........ |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 10:43 am: | |
Unfortunately, there are carriers, I am working for one, who are located in rural areas where there is no pool of experienced people. They need the tools that can be provided by computer based estimating. Just as unfortunate, the tools are not available and/or are not being used. This includes up to date equipment, programs, connections to the Internet and training.
The general insurance world is so far behind a well equipped Cat adjuster that it is pathetic. |
Murphy (Murphy)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 12:18 pm: | |
tom and linda; you are missing the point. the point is to find a program that helps us deliver the best possible work product in the least amount of time. not have the program do the job for us; the product from the computer is only as good as the person that put in the information to begin with. the point is to deliver the product that the examiners can follow easily, easy on their eyes and clear as to cause and origin of the loss: period. we all know the days of hand writing files are gone; to have the most efficient program out there is the key. proper people handling and scoping is the foundation of any file; no computer or its program, or telephone voice can do that. and with that being the bottom line, i will conclude with saying let's keep things in perspective, now....... |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 12:13 pm: | |
The "dumbing down" of the industry, as Tom refers to it is not fantasy. It is total reality.
This facet of the business world, is not unlike many others that have pensioned off, retired, or simply dismissed their real knowledge data base of seasoned professionals, and attempted to fill the void with the "technology" knowledge of the computer data base.
Excuse me?
Did not man invent and create machinery to assist them in the tasks? Since when is the machine the leader and the person the simple minded operator?
This trade as with many others is becoming too dependent on the "point and click" as alluded by Linda. The true value of the seasoned adjuster is totally NOT UNDERSTOOD by those "suits" as they are referred to.
They, after all, are the ones that we dealt with 10 or 15 years ago, they did not understand then, nor do they now, and surely have little or no comprehension of all of the facets of the catastrophe adjusting trade, the hardships, both mental and physical, the costs etc.
Sure, we could throw all of the "toys" we use out the door and start hand writing again, there then, MAY be 100 individuals that could write a $1,000,000.00 estimate and get it agreed to.
This year, when the "Andrew type" storm hits, and the proverbial brown stuff strikes the rotary blades, i seriously doubt there will be 50% of the required people available to do the job.
There is a wake-up call being placed on this board, guys and gals. We will all swim in the pond or drown in it.
"Caveat Emptor" |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 11:47 am: | |
Tom, Linda, etal,
You are all correct in that the function of the inside adjuster, (or Cat. 2 adjuster as I was raised to call them), can never legitimately usurp the role of the outside adjuster, (or Cat. 1 adjuster). That the Suits, with no knowledge much less appreciation of field work, are continuing the trend to eliminate us, speaks volumes as to the direction our industry is headed! (Gee-Whiz, let's get free estimates from the ever honest and work for free contractors and do away with the over-priced independent!! Or even better, lets get rid of all the company cars and turn our own outside employee adjusters into inside adjusters and put them in regional offices in places like Oklahoma City or Overland Park, Kansas or San Antonio, Texas! That way we can also get rid of all those expensive local claims offices too!)
Am I frightened? Am I cynical and paranoid? Am I having apocalyptic and psychedelic visions induced by a sober, clean living, pure thought lifestyle? You tell me... |
Linda (Linda)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 8:28 am: | |
Tom, I agree with you. If the users have no knowledge of construction methods and applications, then they cannot produce a legitimate estimate. They can however, produce a "point and click" estimate which can and will fall woefully short of the true scope of the damages.
I had a conversation with a contractor who swears by Xactimate. I agree with him that it has the largest data base but I disagree with anyone who attempts major damage repair based solely on line item entries. |
Tom Weems
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2000 - 10:15 pm: | |
I think we are going in the wrong direction here. We have all witnessed the "dumbing down" of the industry in the last few years. The focus seems to be on trying to make the programs do the thinking. IMHO trying to hire people who know nothing and letting the software try to make up the deficit is just wrong. |
Murphy (Murphy)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2000 - 9:55 am: | |
my suggestions for the "perfect adjusting program", whether it be for inside or outside adjusters' use are listed below:
- have everything we need in 1 USER FRIENDLY, SIMPLE, program. we have to use 2 or 3 separate programs to get the job done today.
--- digital photos page
--- sol
--- pol
--- estimate itself
--- short form report
--- long form report
--- flood forms
--- simple codes to learn
--- invoice
over the years, all the programs we have used have had some of the above, but not all of the above in just 1 program.
also, the program should not cost us if we are not using it; that is why I stopped using Simsol years ago. it's too expensive to pay for something you are not using.....
maybe DDS has all the capabilities, but I have heard from many that it is hard to learn; takes a whole lot of time to figure out how to use it. the programs are getting better with time. if there is a program out there with all we need and easy to learn, please let me know. thanks |
Johnp (Johnp)
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2000 - 11:00 am: | |
Gale:
Thanks for mentioning our ad in CLAIMS magazine on CADO! We developed our new product, The Inside Adjuster Assistant, with the help of Vale National Training Centers and two of our larger clients. It took about 2 years to develop, refine and beta test. The product is only marketed to Insurance Carriers and TPA's and is great for writing smaller estimates. It's question-and-answer format walks an inside adjuster through the estimating process. If the loss has to be looked at by an outside adjuster the estimate can be loaded into our field adjuster software (SIMSOL FOR ADJUSTERS) for further detailing (no double entry). Inside adjuster programs have been around for years and we saw a need for some software for these adjusters. They won't put CADO members (or my cat adjusting firm) out of business but do play an important role in the adjusting process. |
Russ (Russ)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 4:15 pm: | |
Gale, the inside adjuster is sometimes better than the tools that he is equiped with by the company. As an Independent access to a companies LAN or net is almost impossible. A stand alone, estimating only, most inside adjusters report to the file on their lan with a cut and paste statement of loss. A simple small estimating program is screaming to be marketed. |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 7:56 am: | |
Gale, it would appear to me, as I do a temporary stint as an "inside adjuster", that as smaller companies upgrade their hardware, a major market is opening for estimating software. My experience is that when I work in the offices of small insurance companies they do not have the equipment to run CD-ROMS. That capacity will come with the next equipment upgrade.
The "inside adjuster"/"examiner" has always been a part of the insurance business and always will be. |
Dave (Dave)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 6:35 am: | |
The adage, "A picture is worth a thousand words" comes to mind.
The use of the inside adjuster, for Property, goes back many years, the strongest of which, if memory serves me correctly, was in the gas crunch of the 70's.
The proponents of this are those that, for the most part ,have NOT been in the field, have no concept of the totality nor the reality of the loss. Rather, they are influenced by the aspect of the supposedly "cost cutting" benefits of the inside adjuster, as they are mistakenly influenced with the DRP (direct repair contractor)programs.
Granted, there are some limited cases , in which, throwing some money at a loss will resolve it while not incurring the cost of a hands on, close up field inspection by a trained professional. In these cases, as with most, they are paying too much or too little, and taking advantage of the client,whom for the most part has limited knowledge of the loss, coverage or cost to return the loss to "like kind and quality".
The trend will continue for a bit, and the true field adjuster may find their roles changing, for a period of time, This is yet another cycle of this business.
While the initial statement of this post may bear some merit, the absolute truth of the matter is that "there is no substitute for reality" even VR (virtual reality) at it's best cannot compare. Mentally it comes close but physically, it looses.
We all are forced to "stay the course" at present, make use of the talents, equipment and software that enables us to eke out a living. What goes around comes around , and when the people that make a decision are personally faced with the calamity of a loss, they then may fully realize the benefits and correctness of having a professional preform the operation. At present, it seems the carriers are assigning a first year interne to preform an open heart surgery under battlefield conditions. Wonder what the win/loss record of that fiasco will be???? |
Gale (Gale)
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 12:57 am: | |
Since CADO has become a default insurance portal for many in the industry I could use some comments from the carrier, vendor and adjuster on perhaps a new trend or an old trend with a new spin, the “Inside Adjuster”.
Just a few days ago an adjuster explained to me how the “Inside Adjuster” is making gains with some auto carriers. They have the body shop to take digital photos and upload them along with their repair estimate and an “Inside Adjuster” reviews the photos and written estimate and gives it thumbs up or thumbs down. One can see how this could work with autos, saving the carrier an “Outside Adjuster” adjusting fee but could the idea become popular in the more complex world of property adjusting?
Before today I had never given in much detailed thought, until I was reading the new July issue of Claims magazine and saw a statement on page 71 implying that PowerClaim, DDS, Xactimate, Boeckh and all other competitors of Simsol have been busy overloading and overcomplicating our estimating software while Simsol has just reversed the gyre.
Immediately I sensed that “gyre” must be one of those words that John Postava uses on a daily bases but being a Kentucky hillbilly with a fast cable modem I realized that I did not have to let a competitor’s use of a four letter word get my goat
Simply by doing a fast search on “gyre” I am up with, “[L gyrus Gk guros] I. Chiefly poetry and literary: 1. A circular movement or turn; a revolution, a gyration. 2. A circle, a spiral; a vortex. II. Science: A circular pattern of surface currents round an ocean basin. (Source: OED)”. Reversing a revolution or a gyration is no small accomplishment in my book. Don’t you agree?
The nice looking ad is promoting the top ten reasons Simsol should be your software vendor. The caption in the middle of the ad reads, “Reason #8: Estimating Tools for the Inside Adjuster” promoting Simsol’s exclusive “INSIDE ADJUSTER WIZARD” that can walk inexperienced inside adjusters through their first property damage estimate as well as experienced claim reps settling property losses over the phone.
What really got me to thinking was the in the finally paragraph it makes it clear that property and contents as well as small CAT losses can now be settled with verifiable cost on the FIRST CALL! The close was very strong, “Just think of the cost savings and customer satisfaction!”
If the “Inside Adjuster” is becoming the “IN” trend does this mean the “Outside Adjuster” is becoming the “OUT” trend or will these losses be double adjusted? If the carrier adjusting costs are being “reduced” by the “Inside Adjuster” as the ad seems to indicate then the answer is clearly, NO!
Again I would like to read some levelheaded thoughts from the carrier, vendor and adjuster viewpoint. We all know how fast things can change in today’s world and that those that go about saying “NEVER” are wrong more often than right.
How do you think the “Inside Adjuster” attention will affect the market for “Outside Adjuster” software?
What would you like to see the other adjusting software vendors do to help the “Outside Adjuster” to be better able to compete with the “true cost” of the “Inside Adjuster?
What perceived value can be added to an estimate by the “Outside Adjuster” that will catch the attention of the carrier?
This week according to Alan Greenspan increased productivity seems to be the long-term trend into the future. That means doing more with and for less. It is clear the “Outside Adjuster” must be enabled to do more with less if he is going to play a major role in our “New Economy”.
There are hard questions that we at Hawkins Research, Inc. and all in the industry must ask and successfully answer if we are going to find the “New Economy” to be our friend and not our demise.
Thanks for your serious thoughts and answers. |
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