| Author |
Message |
glen garoutte
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 1999 - 11:03 am: | |
Jim,
This morning I have read your comment, and concerned adjusters 2 comment. I myself can see both sides of the concerns. Myself I have been on the contracting side of it for many years. What I have seen is poorly given claims given from the experienced and the not experienced.
I myself would think that it would be beneficial to see the new adjusters get help and training. If the product is improved, not only will it create continious work for the adjusters, but it will keep the fee schedules where they need to be. The goal for myself is to be sure that I create the utmost in professionalism and quality, but also help others when I can
Wheather it is realized or not, there are many out there that have been in the field, that are behind the times in many aspects of adjusting.Personally I would like to see an organized effort to unite this field so that we as adjusrers can keep the integrity of this business wher it needs to be. Also I would want to stress that if the experienced would give the advice as to who not to work for, that hopefully we could cut down on the low ball fees that are popping up. This is only an opinion and not directed at any one individual. Wish everyone the best and hope to see you out there. |
Darryl Martin
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 1999 - 10:37 am: | |
Yes, I work for a vendor. Yes, we depend heavily on carriers for our livlihood. I do have a few comments I would like to add concerning the post by Concerned2.
The purpose of an adjuster is to write an estimate based upon all damage covered by the policy (contract) between the insured and the carrier. It has nothing to do with helping the local economy get work or funds to get going again.
I agree that many state licenses are nothing but money making avenues for that state and that company certifications don't make a person an adjuster. However, it does show that the individual has been exposed to some training and has minimal requirements. The only true test of an individual's ability to properly handle claims is to hire him/her and observe their work product, flexibility and ability to learn.
Company taining and certification are meant to indoctrinate an adjuster in that company's way. I don't see anything wrong with that and feel most adjusters appreciate the guidance in learning a company's philosophy and guidelines on claim handling. As far as it being a method to shaft insureds, I don't agree. It usually tells you what state insurance commissions and court cases have deemed the meaning of the policy and how to handle accordingly. We, being independents hired by an employer (carrier), will always have to follow guidelines set by the people who hire us, NATURE OF THE BEAST".
In closing, it comes down to proper interpretation of the policy (contract). That is what is owed to both the insured and the insurer, no more, no less. Most definitely, rising costs at CAT sites should be considered, but an insurance policy is NOT a social program and helping the local economy secure work and money should be a consideration. |
Concerned2
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 1999 - 1:19 am: | |
I must respond to the Golden Goose post. The reason companies get incompetent adjusting work is because they allow used car salesmen, policemen and firemen on hiatus, unemployed relatives of adjusters, and any warm body they can find to adjust claims when a catastrophe strikes. They do this because of this new philosophy of "no matter how bad a storm it is, we want it inspected out in 6 weeks". Then the independents are sent packing with a few exceptions and the staff "cat adjusters" take over.
The only purpose for adjuster licensing is to generate state revenue and for political gain for the local politicians. Those of you who think you are "professionals" because you have a bunch of state licenses are kidding yourselves.
As far are the companies being abused by adjusters overpaying claims, give me a break, please. The purpose of all the so-called "training" and "certifications" is to indoctrinate adjusters with the "company way" which has all sorts of ways to shaft their insureds, many of which borderline on unfair claims practices. Anyone with real experience in this business( that is, independent contract catastrophe adjusting, not working for a company or a bureau) knows that in a catastrophe situation, the idea is not to write "tight" estimates. Costs go up as the storm work progresses, the local economy needs the work and the money to get going again. Everyone I know that is worth their pay knows how to write a well constructed artistic estimate that reflects their individual style and is understood and acceptable to real contractors when it comes time to do the work. If you think it's your job to go out and cut the heck out of your figures so the company will be grateful to you, you have been a "company man" too long.
Wake up, this is a dying business and it has been for a while. You are a necessary evil to the companies and they will shaft you as quickly as they will their customers. Your job is to help the victims of the catastrophe, not please your supervisor with overly tight adjustments.
To the three or four of you who seem hell-bent on bringing new people into this business, look around---there's no work. We really need a lot of new people! It is irritating to have outsiders working side-by-side with experienced adjusters and making the same money when there is work. Since you seem to be concerned with "mentoring" someone to "fill your shoes", let me tell you who will be filling all our shoes--23 year old girls who have had an estimatics class and work on a salary of $25,000/year with $100/day storm duty pay so you don't need to worry about mentoring anyone, let alone the latest crop of unemployed people from other industries.
This business about more and better education is pure B.S. Hire more real catastrophe adjusters and fewer people from outside is the answer.
The "Golden Egg" is paper mache if you haven't noticed lately. |
Same as Always
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 1999 - 11:37 am: | |
I have never seen one, but for over twenty years I have been hearing of studies commisioned by various companies which repeatly show that when claims are inspected by an adjuster the end result is a reduction in claim payment and it exceeds the expence of the cost of the adjuster. All you can do from a desk is apply the deductible to the estimate submitted by the contractor. Anything else means that additional information is being obtained and submitted by the contractor as part of the adjustment. As my experience is on the claims and underwriting side of the business and not operations, I have to assume that expenses generated by handling claims are handled differently and harder to absorb than the claim payments. Talk with any of your contacts. The company staffs are bare-bones and most have almost no outside adjustment expence monies allocated into their budgets. Something that hasn't changed in twenty years is that when the market tightens up, claim expense monies disappear (unless you believe commercials). |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 1999 - 11:50 am: | |
WE ARE KILLING THE GOOSE WHO LAID THE GOLDEN EGG.
This is in response to Disgusted Licensed Adjuster:
Recently, I undertook a study of the adjuster licensing requirements for each of the 50 states and US territories.
What I discovered is that 17 states within the US do not require adjuster licensing for independent
P/C adjusters. However, many of these 17 states do require licenses for public adjusters and/or auto adjusters or auto physical damage estimators.
Most of the 50 states have different licening requirements for independent versus carrier staff adjusters. Generally speaking, the insurance commisioner of each state requires that SOMEONE from a carrier operating within that state be licensed, and other adjusters can then work "under" that licensed staff person's supervision.
I don't know which state you are licensed in, but my guess is from studying the various license laws, is that the carrier staff who are adjusting by telephone and mail IN YOUR STATE are in fact, in compliance with your state's laws. The states do make a distinction between independent adjusters and staff adjusters, and yes, they are tougher on independent adjusters. Part of the thinking behind this, is that the carrier will more closely supervise it's own staff and be more responsive to the insured out of a higher degree of self interest and duty owed.
None of the states appear to have any licensing requirements for property estimators ONLY. The real question then would be whether the property "estimator" (contractor) was operating under the direction and auspices of a staff adjuster or supervisor or had the "authority" to SETTLE the claim without staff supervision. If the property estimator was in fact doing the latter (without supervision of carrier staff), then perhaps they would be in violation of the various state statutes requiring adjuster licenses for independent property adjusters.
While we may not like it, telephone adjusting is not only here to stay, it will continue to expand and thrive in the future as carriers make every effort to reduce their Allocated Loss Adjustment Expenses (ALAE). Yes, there may be a trade off, but when done well and effectively, it is a proper claims handling techinque for smaller similar type losses. There are opportunities for cat adjusters to work in telephone adjusting from time to time, and rather than write this method off, we should be trying to learn how and to perfect our skills.
Finally, if we, as the independent catastrophe adjusting community would see that all of our members are better trained in policy, estimating, and claims handling techniques, the carriers would not be forced to look for other ways of reducing claims adjustment expenses and bringing the average damage costs under control. As a community, our reputation and our strength is no greater than our weakest link.
What we fail to recongnize or acknowledge is that we have cat "adjusters" out on storms who are performing shoddy incompetent work. Many "adjusters" who are "overpaying" claims on a regular basis just to reach the next fee schedule threshold. And many "adjusters" who are including in their estimates items for payment which are specifically excluded by policy. The bottom line is that IGNORANCE on our part(as a community) is costing the insurance companies millions of wasted, unfair, and yes, fraudulent DOLLARS.
When we will, like the carriers, one day wake up and say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?
As any adjuster out there who has ever worked "cleanup" can tell you, there are more than a few reasons why we as cat adjusters are "killing the goose who laid the Golden egg."
Until we begin "policing" our own, someone else will do it for us, and in so doing, cost all of us a lot of money. |
Disgusted Licensed Adjuster
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 1999 - 7:54 am: | |
Eqkid has stated what many of us have known for a long time and that is that the carriers thumb their noses at those states whose statutes require adjuster licensing. What good are such statutory licensing schemes when the regulators (generally the state's insurance department) fails to do their statutory and regulatory duty? Permitting repair contractor vendors to adjust property losses is,with some exceptions, akin to asking a rabbit to deliver a head of lettuce...hence, what is loosely referred to as the "Law of Unintended Consequences". My own state's insurance code is very strict regarding licensing, but the department of insurance has known for a very long time that the adjustment of losses by telephone or mail takes place many times every day by unlicensed adjusters who are situate in other states. I am sure that my state's department of insurance is also aware of repair contractor vendors estimating property losses, but I have not heard of any building contractor on carrier being sanctioned or fined for such activity.
Generally, I use my real name when posting but for
self-protection on this post I choose not to do so. |
Eqkid
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 1999 - 12:57 pm: | |
A quick look at what is happening in the insurance industry as far as claims departments go. You will note that almost all the companies are looking for something for nothing in there regular claims departments. They are by passing adusters for contracted vendors. Many claims do not even require an adjuster to inspect the damages. The Contractor or repair facility inspects the damage and writes a free estimate for the insurance company. What has happened is that the companies now hire check writers who pay what the contracted vendor wants. The companies are touting this systems saying that they will warrant the work for 3 years or more. In many cases the field adjusters are so dependent on vendors that they are incapable of writing an estimate for a large loss. I don't look for this condition to change soon. On the up side an adjuster who knows the policies will be able to find work for the vendors who want maximize their profits and use the system to their own advantage. Many auto body shops are now looking for experienced adjusters to make the companies pay what they owe in a reasonable time period. The biggest fault with this system is that Vendors bill for damage not always covered damage. The vendors are acting as unlicensed adjsuters on behalf of the Carrier every time they tell an insured that the insurance company will not pay for this or that item. Some state will make a fortune in fines if they ever audit this practice. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 1999 - 11:07 am: | |
In Greensboro, NC where I live and in looking at the classified ads around the US when I travel, the insurance companies are begging for worker's comp adjusters. For those with the ability to do "comp", there never seems to be a job shortage. |
Charles J. Hoffman
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 1999 - 8:57 am: | |
Daven,
I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty,
that the companies are not coming to Pittsburgh.
At least in regards to property insurers. All one has to do is go to the local adjuster wateringhole
and hear the stories of woe. More telling is the increased competition in the independent market I have been experiencing these past couple of years,due to the influx of ex-staffers in this area. Although we have seen an increase in the HMO's and TPA's. |
daven kreifeldt
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 1999 - 4:16 pm: | |
as the folks have hinted, staff companies are retrenching. many pennsylvania companies have pulled claims operations in to philadelphia or pittsburgh, eliminating all satalite offices. Others more and more are going to computerized telephone adjusting. that leaves zillions of staff adjusters unemployed looking for jobs.
maybe you could get on as a temp or local cat to show what you can do. good luck.
dk |
Leonard Parker
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 1999 - 6:47 am: | |
Tracy, there are more reasons and hidden agendas in the carrier interviewers than any of us can ever know. Most of them are substantive and many of them are just plain petty. For the most part, though, I believe that few are intentionally hurtful(your 4 interviewer session being a good example). I can tell you that you are up against some strong perceptions--and misconceptions--when you approach a carrier with experience as a trooper.
Not the least of these is one's stability as an employee. My experience has been that storm troopers have it in their blood. They can't help it. It happens to everyone of us when we see a cloud on TV! The heart starts to pump, the mind race and the feet to itch. We are glued to the tube. Then we get a call to go on standby. The pressure becomes immeasurable! Then comes the call to depoy and the next thing you know, you are in the boss's office with your hands outheld, quitting without notice, and saying, "I'm sorry, but I just can't turn down the money." But, it's not the money, it's THE STORM.
Circumstances change and we want, and need, steady work. However, the reality is that it's only temporary, even though it may be for years. I have yet to talk to a recovering trooper who will tell me that he/she would not quit and go back on the road if his/her circumstances were different.
All I can say is keep trying. Don't stop with the carriers or large independents. Try the small ones also. We hire people, too, you know. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 1999 - 12:07 am: | |
Tracy, Have you also considered applying at the Seattle offices of Crawford, GAB, Lindsey-Cunnigham, Gissy Greer, and other larger local independents to work as a local property adjuster? Their salaries should be as much as or more than the $30,000.00 which you mentioned.
Just another thought. |
Tracy Rae
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 1999 - 10:46 pm: | |
Thank you to everyone who posted. You gave me some things to think about. I live in the Seattle area. I have applied to all the major companies and the smaller ones as well. My first interview ended when I said what my salary had been. I learned not to disclose that anymore. Another company had 4 people interview me at once. They all took cheap shots at my education. They made several sarcastic remarks like "what do you like to do when you are not in school?" and "do you have any hobbies besides school?"..and then they would all laugh. I wanted to crawl out of there. So, then I decided to omit one of my degrees and see if that would have better results. I applied to another company that was looking for several entry level auto adjusters. (I am a property adjuster). I had a phone interview and that was it. I thought maybe they didn't want female auto adjusters. I received a letter from them saying my experience/education didn't meet thier needs. Whatever that means. All of these positions pay about $30,000 a year. I have told them that I am willing to accept that. I really love being an adjuster but I feel like I am up against a brick wall. |
Steve Satchell
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 1999 - 6:14 pm: | |
I had a friend who was in a similiar position. He went to work for a major carrier, as a temp & was later hired on as a staff adjuster. Working as a temp allowed both him & the company to check each other out. Try making an offer to work as a temp until they hire, an employee. The person hired might be you |
John Johnson
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 1999 - 6:14 pm: | |
Tracy, as you know there is a steady trend in the downsizing of claims staff within the insurance industry. The downsizing is, in my opinion, due to a number of factors including but not limited to mergers and the desire to show a more profitable bottom line. Recently, Liberty Mutual announced that it would be laying off 1500 employees and hoped to cut its expenses by 150 million. In your case, it appears that you have too much
experience and, alas, formal education. In some situations you would probably have more experience and education than a first line supervisor and would be a perceived threat and intimidating to those already on board. Lastly, the companies to which you applied may have invited resumes to build up their availability data base for future hiring. Just my thoughts on your situation. Good luck! |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 1999 - 6:25 pm: | |
Tracy,
In order to have enough information to give any advice, I would need the following:
(1) What city/state are you located in? What is the unemployment rate and trend there?
(2) How and in what position were you employed by Pilot?
(3) Did you specify a minimum salary figure in your job interviews and if so, what was that amount?
(4) What courses and coursework have you completed? Have you completed the "Certificate in General Insurance" program? Have you taken or completed any AIC or CPCU courses? Do you have any insurance industry designations?
Insurance companies generally are looking for (1) college graduates (which I note you have) (2) Course work completed for Certificate in General Insurance, AIC, CPCU or some combination of the three.
In a larger town where there are several insurance companies, the companies can often hire well experienced adjusters who have been downsized from another insurer with that adjuster already having familiarization with the corporate culture of a carrier versus an independent. Further, that adjuster may be willing to be hired for a salary less than you might be willing to work for.
Generally, the independent adjusters are unwilling to work for the lesser pay scales which they may find at a carrier, and the carriers are uniwlling to pay salaries similar to what an independent has earned as a catastrophe adjuster.
Further, you will more often see the carrier staff adjuster trying to make the transition over to the independent or cat side and not the other way around.
BTW, have you tried applying for the many insurer positions which are available on the Internet. Most of the larger carriers have websites with their job offerings available for on site review and application.
Hope this helps. |
Tracy Rae
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 1999 - 2:48 pm: | |
I am 32 and have worked very steady for an independent adjusting company for 4 years (Pilot). I am in good standing with them. I decided I wanted an adjusting position with an insurance company so I can spend time with my family. I have applied to at least 12 companies in my city. I have only been called for 4 interviews. But, no job offers. I have applied for entry level adjusting, both property and auto, and also experienced positions. I have 2 bachelor degrees from well respected colleges, I have attended Vale. I don't understand why I have not been able to get a job with an insurance company. Do they not like hiring former independents? Does anybody have any suggestions on what to do? It is getting depressing to keep getting turned down. Will any insurance company hire former independents??? |
|
