| Author |
Message |
wonderadjuster
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2000 - 1:32 am: | |
You are right, law is law. Did everyone make a deal to break the California law? Would like know. And, sometimes the company does not keep their word with all adjusters the same. Maybe not shame on Mr. B until more facts are available. Life is not always fair. Even with lawyers and honest adjusters helping out. Mask back on and willing to take a fresh look on the whole deal. Would like to see more posts to the details of the why of the case. Where are the burgers? |
Masked One Too
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2000 - 12:49 am: | |
And the law is the law (even in California). |
wanderadjuster
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2000 - 12:40 am: | |
Good grieeeefffff! A deal is a deal. You work Sundays or you don't. Did you take the deal to work Sunday? Apparently you did not stay home or you would not be suing. Shame Mr. Babin-whatever. And to include the Bible, bible, cap or lc which do you choose. Lets respect each person's right to choose a Sunday Deal or no Sunday Deal. Regarding cleanup, in some deals, clean up is to help your fellow adjusters, the vendor, and the homeowner to understand each other, not to knock down, if possible, your fellow adjusters. About the vendors and the market, good grieeefff, there are bad vendor days and bad market days, part of the deal, keep your eyes on the horizon and your nose to the wind. Back to being unconscious for a few days. Will keep my mask on in case one of these deal breakers slips up on my contracted/suppine adjuster body. |
JRitcheson
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2000 - 9:51 pm: | |
Hi, Just a note on the litigation against Pilot.
A lot of us worked for Pilot following the earthquake. Pilot is a good organization and was up front wih all of us regarding the financial arrangements. We all knew what we were being paid and if we didn't agree to it, we didn't have to work for Pilot. If California has some funky law which Pilot did not comply with, that should be between the state and Pilot. It appears that the Pilot Orginization has agreed to fund a settlement, for reasons which remain theirs.
I have worked for Pilot many times since the earthquake and would gladly work for them again if the need arises. I also will take any monies they have chosen to fund a settlement with and will probably send the check back to Pilot. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 9:17 pm: | |
Auntie Emm,
This is a California suit. It's scope, tho, goes from the earthquake up thru the end of 1999 and includes a whole lot of folks that had no idea about till the papers hit our mailbox. Wow, I wonder if any other topic has had as many comments as this one?
We really do need to get out on a storm. We are spending way too much time at this website. |
AuntieEmm
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 9:09 pm: | |
Can someone please clarify this lawsuit for me? Is it based on a California or federal law? There has been much written on this board about working the Northridge earthquake. I have been included in this lawsuit but I did not join Pilot until several years after the earthquake and have never worked for them in the state of California. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 4:31 pm: | |
Mr Phantom, one more thing. You said: "this settlement COULD cause some LARGE CHANGES in our profession." I say: "It WILL cause some MAJOR CHANGES in our profession." Many of those major changes were inevitably coming anyway. Perhaps, we are saying the same thing.
In the days ahead, I will write an article describing those changes ahead as I see them, for posting in the Meditations column.
I would love to hear what Joe Rasco alludes to when he talks about change ahead in our industry. We all seem to be in agreement with that. We just may differ on what those changes may entail and how they affect each of us. We may also differ slightly on the underlying causes, of which I happen to think there are many.
I would suggest for all of our readers to take a look at some of the comments from the Insurance Information Institute regarding how they see the future. They have an excellent analysis posted at http://www.iii.org/media/issues/catastrophes.html
I would say one last thing Mr Phantom: By posting my real name here on this thread, and taking the position on this issue that I have, I have not endeared myself to either the Pilot organization or Pilot family. As we say in NC, I doubt they would piss down my throat if my guts were on fire.
I don't know whether that reflects courage or stupdity on my part, but sometimes we have to take a stand on issues based on our principles and beliefs. If we don't stand up for certain principles, then we will fall for anything. I respect yours and I ask only that you respect mine. |
LMushred
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 4:28 pm: | |
I have a comment and question here.
I have never worked for Pilot and I also have no dog in this fight and personally I am glad I don't. All the people who worked the Northridge
earthquake- question -- would you have made as much money working a per file basis as you would or did working a daily rate? Remember the hrs sitting in traffic that you didn't get paid for if you worked by the file, but you did get paid for if you worked by the day. Also, the required reinspections because aftershocks revealed more damage that if you worked by the file you didn't get paid for, but if you worked by the day you did. All the documentation that has to be in the file to keep everyones rearend out of trouble should the State come in and see a problem with the file.
It seems to me that in an earthquake cat. the best way to work and get paid the best would be by the day. Living in this wonderful State, this settlement and the man who brought it, I feel has changed how the companies will be paying us. WHEN we have another earthquake we may only see per file payments which won't be able to make a decent living. Particularily with the cost of living and gas and all other items here. We are already at $2.00 a gallon for gas. I fear this lawsuit may end up screwing us all. |
Jim Flynt AIC, CIC, AAI, AIS I HAVE SOME TOO
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 3:17 pm: | |
David Bennett: Congratulations on achieving your SCLA (Senior Claims Law Associate) designation. I commend you and know that you will join me in urging others to visit the AEI website at http://www.aeiclaimslaw.com/index.htm to learn how they can obtain it as well.
I will remind our audience once again, that I am not an attorney and I do not practice law. For those seeking legal advice, I would recommend they retain competent legal counsel. I do not believe that any of the other posters to this thread are lawyers either, but stand ready to be corrected.
The Phantom: Regarding motives. What is yours here? Why are you posting an opinion? I did see where YOU worked for Pilot in the past, and wonder if you are on assignment with them now?
My motive plain and simple is that I posted at the request of several readers who asked for my opinion either by email or Instant Message. I think if you will take a cursory look around the CADO site, that you will find that I have long been involved in education, elucidation, and enlightenment for our CADO readers, new and old.
I would suggest to you that a couple of the anonymous posters on this thread are saying one thing publicly here, and in private communications saying that they plan to take their portion of the Pilot settlement and run. While I do not understand that unusual dichotomy, it is their prerogative and I will not betray their identity.
I do believe that many of you have tried to paint this whole matter as akin to a jaywalking charge or similar to the dog killing the neighbor's cat. Nothing could be further from the truth for those willing to look at the facts dispassionately. By the way, I agree with those who suggest looking at the original lawsuit and those documents of discovery which are public. Personally, I have already taken steps to obtain those documents so I have the facts at hand.
Think about one last thing. If you, me, or anyone else were being sued and we felt our position was legally correct, we would not settle for $6 Million Dollars. If you are living in the real world, you would quickly see that at $500.00 per hour for your attorney, for 40 hours per week, for 50 weeks per year, you could easily purchase 6 plus years of legal defense for SIX MILLION SMACKERS (Which by the way does not include the cost for the Pilot attorneys or interest which could be earned over time). Look at this matter DISPASSIONATELY and you may see it in a different light. |
Greg Achee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 12:16 pm: | |
Jim,
You make some good points, and knowing the Pilot family, and also knowing several lawyers......
WELL it's pretty clear the Pilots get my vote.
Never could tell when a lawyer was telling the truth, except when their lips aren't moving. |
David Bennett, SCLA
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 12:15 pm: | |
Jim, it is clear we agree to disagree. As for the laws as written, you are correct in that they should be taken as they read. However, plaintiffs attorney's (which by the way are the one's representing Babinski) will take the law and wrangle it around and attempt to confuse the issue for a jury.
As for us to use the law to confirm with our believes, let me reiterate: Everything has two or more meanings, depending on who is reading it. As for the Law on Employee's. The IRS is the one who sets the standards for who is an employee, indepedant or sub. It is the IRS who has caused confusion in this area because of basically one reason: The failure of the independant to properly pay his or her taxes. They (the IRS) has decided to hold the (in our situation) carrier or cat company, responsible for the collection of the taxes. The realm of control extends to : hours required or set, equipment provided, use of specific forms, place where work is to be performed, setting of guidelines to perform your tasks and several others. Once you fall into the category of an employee then you "COULD" make an argument for other benefits as well. This is not to say you are entitled to them. I don't know of one cat company that agrees to pay you a set salary with requirements that you must bill that amount to breakeven and then any extra billed is to your benefit. When that happens then I would say you are an employee entitled to all of the benefits offered by the employer.
Most of the Cat Companies I have associated with, do withhold State and Federal Taxes from my billings, because of the IRS Laws on temporary employees vs Independants.
As I previously said, this is a settlement probably based on economical issues to which we are not a party to. This is not a case that could ever be used by anyone else as a legal precendent because there was no verdict rendered.
Just because the plaintiff has been able to "EXTORT" undo monies (in my opinion) from Pilot, does not mean our industry is about to change. If anything, the guidelines set by the cat companies will be better prepared to aid in the prevention of this event happening again. Based on my experience dealing with the changes generated by such a suit (I did supervise and direct litigation countrywide for The Maryland, Property Dept.)the wording is going to be something that really points to "Us" and holds "US" accountable in writing for what we have always been accountable. Only now we will be putting a signature to it.
Lets not get into legal issues because I could debate them all day long. I can even recommend several good defense firms in CA you could call and see if they will give you their twist on it.
I had to deal with the same issues, with the independants we contracted with at The Maryland, on employment status.
Anyway, enough said, the case has been settled and unless you could forward me the original pleadings and discovery provided for review, I really cannot comment on any of the specifics of this matter. All the discussion's have been based on the settlement notice, what some of us believe is right and some knowledge of employee law.
Have a Great Day |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 9:52 am: | |
(It's whiney-baby time.)
It appears this thread of discussion is winding down as to the moral rectitude of whether to take the money or not. In the future, can we please limit relgious references to very brief phrases? These sermons of late have gone overboard in their breadth and scope.
Mind you we don't want our little 'Tower of Babel' to come tumbling down under the weight of so much babble! |
THE PHANTOM
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 9:42 am: | |
JIM FLYNT:
I am surprised at your last few postings here. Your previous forum postings, for the most part, seemed fairly intelligent and made sense. Sorry, I have to disagree with your thinking here and if you were writing with a clear head, I also wonder your motive. This settlement could cause some large changes in our profession. REMEMBER, THIS CASE WAS NOT TRIED BUT SETTLED. IF IT WORKS HERE FOR THESE LAWYERS, WHO IS NEXT?
First, you are quoting the legal counsels for Mr. Babinski and the class of adjusters. SINCE WHEN CAN WE TRUST THESE LAWYERS? They do not represent us unless we are signed up. Further, why quote them for others to read when it doesn't make common sense that what they tell you is the truth.
You quote that Gancedo & Nieves law firm stated that "part of the agreement was that PILOT WOULD NOT BE MADE AWARE of those who accepted or rejected settlement proceeds". I SAY HOG WASH TO THIS! What businessman would put up $6,000,000 with the stipulation that up to $2,000,000 could be returned if not claimed, would do so without an accounting from counsel of the other party including verification of same? JUST CANNOT BE TRUE! COMMON SENSE ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THIS JUST COULDN'T BE RIGHT.
If everyone will read section IV, page 4 & 5 of the Notice Of Pendency And Settlement Of Class Action, it sets out THE PROPOSED SETTLEMENT. Then, one should use his/her COMMON SENSE to decide on his/her own what he/she feels he/she should do and what is right for him/her. In doing so, keep in mind that common sense tells us Pilot WILL RECEIVE VERIFICATION WITH AN ACCOUNTING. This will mean much more to some than others.
I REST MY CASE. Just hope no one ever ask me to put up that kind of money in this burger business. I'd have to start adjusting or something. |
Pat Marx
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 8:37 am: | |
There is a old Amish saying that when you go to the field you should always hoe to the end of the row,I think whether the row is corn or beans or houses we should apply this to the way we feel going into a storm or after we finish a storm the row is only so long and it is the same length for the vendor or co.as for adjusters ,there are only so many dollars in this claim and it has to be shared by all. |
Greg Achee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 1:30 am: | |
Something for Nothing, usually equals nothing...
except for the attorney's
Why don't eveyone see how else we can damage a business, that is already tarnished and torn.
Put our energy to better use and work at making it better, hell, we already have the public against us most of the time. |
Greg Achee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 1:21 am: | |
When did Jerry McQuire become an adjuster.
Show Me The Money...lol |
Greg Achee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 1:19 am: | |
Mr. Rasco,
I, like many others in this business not only know, but respect you and your opinions. Anyone who has had any dealings with you will back me when I say there has never been a more fairer adjuster or manager. Sometimes people need to be told what is and what isn't, right or wrong. Only problem I see with it is, some of the "adjusters" that happened into this business are just to dumb, or act it, to comprehend what you are trying to convey. Ther are moral issues here too.
Not one adjuster who worked the Earthquake in '94 or any other storm was tied or held against his will by any company. We all knew what was what when we went into it. I too, have some grievances, but I will deal with them on a personal level. The most important thing most forget, especially when money comes into play, is that We all agreed to the pay and conditions. But just as it was in '94, it is now, People will "bitch" if you hang them with a new rope. People use to get the facts before going to a storm, and then they decided whether or not they wanted to work it. But greed has taken it's toll.
You have been my friend and my mentor, and we didn't and don't always agree, but I will, as all who know you, repect you for the MAN you are.
Also, you need to help send some of these yahoos back to school, so they will quit showing their ignorance to all the world. Dem boyz no woo dey is |
BOB BARTON
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 1:08 am: | |
Man what fun... You know it was just last year i fell for a line of bull-•••• from a guy new to this bussiness. He carried a bible around in his truck,could quote you line and verse,was from the deep south and then proceeded to rip me and several others off from our hard earned dollars. I still have not been paid all of my money for day work and this does not include the 50/50 partnership...... Just on a hand shake bob my word is my bond... BUT THAT BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER QUESTION? JUST SAY FOR INSTANCE THAT I WAS A DOCTOR... WOULD MY GOD KEEP ME OUT OF HEAVEN BECAUSE I WORKED 7 DAYS A WEEK TAKING CARE OF THE ILL? TWO PREACHERS READ THE SAME PASSAGE AND GET TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES!!! ONCE AGAIN PERSONAL DECISION TIME.... I FOR ONE WILL GLADLY MEET MMY MAKER AND EXPLAIN WHY I WAS OUT 7 DAYS A WEEK HELPING PEOPLE GET THIER LIFE BACK IN ORDER.... AND I HAVE A FEELING THAT HE WILL SAY GOOD JOB BOB YOU MADE A DIFFERENCE>>> I HAVE A DEEP SPIRITUAL BELIEF BUT YOU BIBLE THUMPERS WHO USE THE BIBLE TO TRY TO EXPLAIN OR JUSTIFY YOUR ACTIONS WILL HAVE ALOT HARDER TIME DEFENDING YOUR SELF THAAN I...... BECAUSE I KNOW I'M NOT PERFECT AND ASK FOR GUIDENCE AND DIRECTION FROM MY KNEES QUITE OFTEN... I ALSO DO WHAT I SAY I WILL OR I WILL TALK TO THE PERSON INVOLVED AND EXPLAIN WHAT IS GOING ON. AND BY THE WAY.... THE OTHER PERSON I WAS REFERRING TO EARLIER... HE KNOWS WHO HE IS AND SO DO QUITE AFEW OTHERS... |
Gale Hawkins
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2000 - 12:15 am: | |
For over two years my sources have been telling me that every adjuster working the big earthquake in California was an employee the entire time they worked for any vendor working for State Farm regardless of what the adjusters wanted to think. One could expect this applied to other carriers as well that had cat losses.
It is great to be independent but if the law says you aren’t then you aren’t in the minds of some. Remember employees don’t have to worry about paying taxes because the state and federal governments get their money before the employee has a chance. With IC’s they have to ask you to give them back their just or unjust share. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 9:15 pm: | |
David Bennett: I do not wish to get into a debate with you, nor will I be drawn into one.
I sincerely hope the legal counsel for both Mr. Babinski and the Lead Counsel for the class of adjusters will come to this CADO Forum post and enlighten our audience, while explaining the particularities of the California and Federal laws that were involved, and allegedly, breached here.
Your statement: "Irrespective of what the laws says about overtime. In my mind that applys(sic) to those who are being paid hourly for which we are not.," causes me grave and great discomfort in the sense that you and I both know that we as individuals, adjusters, vendors, carriers, and corporations cannot abridge, interpret, legislate, adjudicate, infer, imply, nor otherwise utilize linguistic techniques to skew what is published as law to what we WANT the laws to mean for our side. We are a nation of laws and not men.
I understand your generalization. I understand when you say that generally you interpret the laws of employment to provide both exemptions and definitions of those parties who may be exempt from overtime provisions and those whom the various laws may cause to be paid overtime.
One of the crucial issues missed here is this. We work as catastrophe insurance adjusters for many different vendors and carriers. Sometimes we are Independent Contractors (IC's) and sometimes we are treated as employees. One of the major considerations used by VARIOUS LAWS and legal forums is the degree of control and supervision the employer exercises over us.
From a discussion with the California lawyers today, one of the crucial points of this particular case revolved around the contention, that the controls exercised or anticipated amounted to employment as opposed to independent contractor. THAT was the legal ingredient which triggered the legal infringement, and activated the provisions of law applicable to payment of overtime. The hourly pay versus the payment of per diem or per file rates was obscured and negated by the distinction which was created when by all apperances under law, the adjusters became "employees" and were no longer "IC's." They were allegedly supervised as employees and not as independent contractors.
I post this only to clear up where I think there may be a misunderstanding of one of the key issues.
I do believe, that this case will cause many changes down the road for us, the vendors, the carriers, and whether we are treated with strict hourly or daily controls with extensive supervision, or whether we will be allowed to handle claims on the basis of work performed without regard to time invested.
There is an old legal adage which goes something like this:
A citizen must know all of the law.
An attorney must know some of the law.
And a judge has to know none of the law.
Ignorance of the laws is no excuse for violation as I am sure you know. We generally agree with those laws that protect us from the other person's swing at OUR nose, and we generally disagree with those laws that protect the other fellow's nose from our swing.
I hope this clarifies. And one last thing, I am not an attorney and I do not practice law. I urge those seeking legal advice to retain competent legal counsel. |
David Bennett
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 7:37 pm: | |
A lot has been said and several feelings have gotten involved since my last post here. Just wanted to say a couple of things: Irrespective of what the law says about overtime. In my mind that applys to those who are being paid hourly of which we are not. Apparently, for whatever reason, generally economical, Pilot has settled out of court, so we really don't have a verdict here on whether its right or wrong. Bottom line, we know how much per file we get paid and we know how much time it takes us in general to scope, estimate and prepare reports and billings, So how do you develop a formula for determining overtime? The little lady in ElPaso Tx got money for spilling coffee on her lap. Her error not anyone else's. Just because its there doesn't make it right. So, I have never worked for Pilot, but would not participate in any settlement of this nature against anyone period. Where have we gone, is not anyone responsible for they're own actions or decisions anymore? Those of you who want to participate in what I consider a ludicrous settlement, go for it. As I have previously said, if you don't think your names will surface you have not worked on the staff side of the Insurance Industry.
As for the religion being brought in to this discussion, I believe in God and his word. If I am not mistaken all the laws and commandments given to us were wiped away with the sacrifice of his son. I understand those who believe strictly by the word of the old testament and that is they're choice. But we are also not to condemn or look down on others because of what we believe and our perception that others are going against his word. I belive, that our sacrifice to bring some peace and calm to those who have suffered a tragedy is more important than citing from the Old Testament about not working on the Sabbath. If this is your believe then you can say you won't work on the Sabbath, My father did it because of his convictions, but don't go looking down and chastising those of us who do not abide by this, you in essence have gone against his word and teachings. It has been said, if you don't have anything nice or complimentary to say, don't say it. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 3:58 pm: | |
I have received several private emails from CADO readers asking for my thoughts on what those affected parties who are entitled to proceeds from the Pilot Class Action lawsuit should do.
There is an old saying that "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" so for whatever it is worth, I wade reluctantly into this fray.
I must first point out again for all CADO readers that I have never worked for Pilot, and because I refuse to sign contracts based on binding arbitration, I do not foresee circumstances where that would occur. I point this out because the bottom line is, I do not have a dog in this fight nor do I have an ax to grind with Pilot Adjusting Company nor any of the individual Pilot family members.
Today I picked up the telephone and called the Lead Counsel for Mr. Babinski and also the Lead Counsel for the Class (who represents the class of adjusters who worked for Pilot during the Northridge Earthquake). For those who don't know me personally, it is my style to go straight to the horse's mouth when I need or want the "facts."
I had a rather lengthy conversation with Gancedo & Nieves, Lead Counsel for Mr. Babinski. I asked many questions which they answered to my satisfaction. They advised that I also talk with Mr. Ball, the Lead Class Counsel.
I have extended to both Lead Counsels the invitation on behalf of CADO to post any response here to the ongoing discussions, as well as to offer to them editorial space for a "Guest Column" by either or both in which they may share their thoughts relative to the ongoing discussion on this matter. This invitation was given not only orally, but in writing as well in the form of an email to be sent to both.
I am informed by the Gancedo & Nieves law firm, that the intent of the agreement was that Pilot would not recriminate against any affected party and in fact, while their California attorney would review each separate claim made for accuracy, that part of the agreement was that Pilot would not be made aware of those who accepted OR rejected settlement proceeds.
I was further advised that the settlement formula for proceed distribution was such, that any or each affected class action party member was receiving approximately 10% of the overtime which would have technically been due under the California and Federal laws had a settlement agreement not been reached, and Pilot had had to pay the full sums due under the provisions of the laws as written.
Based on these conversations and other considerations as well, were I in fact faced with a decision to accept or reject a portion of the class action settlement proceeds, I would accept them.
I will give some serious consideration to expounding further on my other reasons in a later post, but suffice it to say, I am very comfortable with that recommendation and my personal decision posture.
I do hope that both counsels will respond here in this Forum to the ongoing discussions and I offer whatever help that I can to facilitate that happening.
I wish each and every one of you my best whether you accept your portion of the settlement proceeds, reject your portion, or like me, have no dog in this fight but do have an opinion one way or the other; and also to those who have read this and have no idea in hell what we are even talking about.
It is our right under the American Democratic model to share and express different positions. It is the right of each aggrieved citizen under the American Judicial System to bring forth actions to the judicial process which they feel are abusive or contraindicatory to their rights. It is the right of Gentlemen to disagree, and as I have said before, even our responsibility at times to do that. Let us remember that as Gentlemen we can disagree and still remain friends and then go on to agree on other issues.
I wish all of you my very best no matter your feelings on or "side" in this matter. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 2:29 pm: | |
Rasco...I'm serious.
Please elucidate on your coment of the CYCLE OF CHANGE we independents are going thru. If need be, title the new entry, Cosmic Pychic Predictions. |
Joe W. Rasco
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 12:16 pm: | |
TO THE PHANTOM:
You must know me better than I do. Ha!
Thanks Phantom. Looking forward to our talk and seeing who you are. |
Paladin
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 11:51 am: | |
I don't see how interpetations of the bible have anything to do with a civil lawsuit and how it affects us. There has been a lot of comments made by people who did not sit in huge confernce rooms at the hotels in Pasadena and other locations and watch the road show. Commitments being changed with the only explination being "its my way or the highway". Set the basis for an agreement, that is fine, but be able to explain why it is now changed. One quick example was the instruction to fully scope and estimate all buildings whether there was coverage question or not. Well, untill I was able to produce a memo in writing to that effect, many of the bills submitted were reduced to min. charge, despite instructions. I guess if you produced the memo and pursued the billing you got paid, if not??
As far as bringing religion into this????????Oh, and about the reply I know that is on its way about God's law and man's law, safe it please. |
AuntieEmm
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 11:43 am: | |
Thank you to everyone who has offered their opinion and advice regarding this lawsuit. It has given me several things to think about. Pilot has always been fair to me. Before I went to work on a storm they always told me upfront what my hours were and I agreed to work them. Unfortunately, work has been slow for a long time. I am really torn about what to do. Maybe someone who knows the business better than I do can help me out here...if I sign the form will I be blackballed from Pilot or any other company? At this point, does Pilot really care who collects the money...hasn't the damage already been done? I am not looking to justify my accepting the money I just want to know what repercussions I may face if I do decide to sign the form. Thanks! |
Chad Smith
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 11:07 am: | |
I would like to thank Ghostbuster for his recent post. You stated your position intelligently and with respect for the people who disagree or agree with you. Thank you for changing your ways. I know on my posts in the past I also made unkind remarks ( name Calling ) and that was childish of me and does not further my position on the point I am trying to make.
If we are professionals we should act like. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 10:39 am: | |
I'm not all that comfortable with using the Holy Bible as a crutch to support any argument. Too much can be read into it and then extrapolated to support both sides of any discussion. For example, it can be claimed to support such concepts as: overpopulation, (So and So begat him and he begat her and begat, begat bagat. Or, in Song of Solomon with her thighs and breasts like melons...); strict and cruel punishment for crimes as listed in Dueteronomy; and even the perils of the Internet in the story of the Tower of Babel! (Please observe that I am no Bible scholar but that has never stopped anyone from using it has a shield for their own purposes.)
This listed topic here is about this apparently unknown lawsuit that arrived in our mailboxes, with the promise to pay us for something we were not aware was due us. Yes, I too was more than happy with the deal to do another tour of duty out in Glendale for Pilot. By the same token, I was also not aware that we were also due other legislative mandated benefits. Apparently, neither were the Pilots!
So, little Larry Babinski found out about it, brought it up, got rejected, then got mad and sued on behalf of all of us. The Pilots capitulated, and now, PRESTO!, here is $6,000,000.00 to be shared by all.
If you don't want it, don't take it. If you do, then do. I am.
It seems it was once said that ignorance of the law is no excuse. This is a two edge sword that also aids those ignorant of the law when they do learn of the law later.
Tag! Now I'm the target, take your best shot!
Thpppppppt! |
The Holy Ghost
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 9:47 am: | |
Is the burger place closed on Sundays when you aren't on storm Phantom man? You go to Sunny School? |
preacherman
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 9:40 am: | |
I think the Preacher probably has a day off each week. Our Sabbath might be the First day of his week. The point is not which day one calls the Sabbath but that each honors A Sabbath (1 out of 7 for those who need the math). |
THE PHANTOM
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 9:09 am: | |
GOOD POINT MR. POLITTE! |
THE PHANTOM
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 8:57 am: | |
THE PHANTOM IS BACK!
Mr. Rasco:
I agree with Mr. Smith. Why waste your time answering the children. You probably don't even know them.
For whatever it is worth to you, I feel you are 100% correct about your evaluation of the adjusting business. Those that are not concern had better get that way soon. Our profession is in a big mess. It is not because of a vendor or two as some would have us believe. It is because we allowed it to get this way by refusing to stand up and say "no" to some of the work. We accept work from those that allow carriers to pile more time consuming items upon us for the same or less pay. Then, most of us point the finger at the vender or someone else and say they are ruining our business. We are ruining our own business. The fault is accepting the work that ruins it. Since everyone has to make a living, I don't see this changing anytime soon. You are probably right about the cycle also. It will take a few years, but I see it turning now.
I wish I was ready to retire, but I need to feather my nest just a little more first.
I use an anonymous name because of my burger business, but I will let you know who I am the next time we talk. I have worked with or near you several times over the years and know you well. You do have an "air of superiority" about you, but in your case, you have earned it. It is hard to hide it when one excels in ones field and becomes superior at what one does for a living. It just shows, but if I were you, I would not worry too much about it. Most of us that know you like you just the way you are.
Please, don't leave again. You can add a lot of wisdom to this site, and the Lord knows how much it is needed. I solute you. You, sir, are a legion in your own time. |
Don Politte
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 8:55 am: | |
Was wondering if the Preacher gets paid for his labor on the Sabath. |
Don Politte
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 8:55 am: | |
Was wndering if the Preacher gets paid for his labor on the Sabath. |
eqkid
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 8:25 am: | |
Dear Name withheld by Request,
in the words of many of Rush Limbaugh's follower's, Mega Ditto's... I read your open letter and wondered if I was sleep typing... Your letter was accurate and to the point... The lastest thing in clean up is the companies tell you that you are to work 5 days 8 hours per day and yet they want you to see people on Saturdays, answer all calls and stop all complaints before they happen. I am sure you know the drill.
Unfortuately the vendor tells you what your worth and even when you personally produce more you are paid based on the lowest common denominator. The only protection Cat Adjusters have are the Labor Laws. If companies violate the Labor Laws and are caught the courts will make proper adjustments to your earnings.
I am not that concerned with what happened in the past. My concerns are what happens with my future earning and relationships with the Vendors and the Companies. |
Ole
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 12:05 am: | |
Sven it looks like Misser Blacksmith de pubic adjusser and Misser Rascal done gone and made dis a "us" versis "dem" kinda thing. Dey thinks if yu is not on der side yu is stoopid. Downt go callin dem no names now caus it hurt der feelings an de jess gits mad as rattler snakes and calls yu eben biger an worse names.
Dey waz probablie sent in two here by de Pilots to try an got sum of der money back fer breakin de law in Californie. Dey is probbly goin to git sum especiall assignemnts as pay back for tryin to scare off de udder folks. |
Chad B Smith
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:57 pm: | |
Very well stated Joe W. Rasco Very well stated and refreshing . I agree with you whole heartly
When I have posted in the past I never responded to people to people with cartoon names its best just to ignore them. They are here simply to act like children. Please just respond to the rest of us. We are here |
Sven Olson
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:57 pm: | |
Lena wrapped the lute fisk with the calendar pages a while ago and I just plum forget what day it was. Now Ole has one dem new jobs dat pays by da hour. It seems dat dey give him some 1 and 1/2 times when he works more den 40 hours a week. Sumpthen about all dat Social Securities not getting paid. But we heard of some of dem Pilot guy not wanting dat der money , maybe dey could send it over to us. Da ice is thin on da lake and fishen has been horrible. Sometimes Lena has to buy ice fer da beer too. Dat ice is expensive. Is dem Pilot boys gonna pay all dem Social Securities too? Well gotta go back and finish da chores, dem cows and dem sheep are restless you know. |
Odell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:35 pm: | |
Someone without a name? Oh come on Mr Rascal surely you know these computers are run by someone and not by some robot. And those someones have names. You might make your case better if you would get rid of your air of superiority and attitude of disdain for any that disagree with you. As I remember, that is why you left us last year over the naca debate. You couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:21 pm: | |
Alright Joe,
Lets put aside the personal recriminations and religious strife for a moment and review the box of rocks we are standing in. First the topic is about whether or not to accept this out of the wild blue yonder settlement amount.
But that aside also, you have teased us with the omen that the 'Cycle is about to turn'. Please favor us an elaboration on your psychic prediction for our trade. I am not being facetious, I really would like to hear it.
Thanx |
Joe W. Rasco
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:07 pm: | |
MAD? Me? Why would a man be mad at someone without a name? A little disgusted maybe, but not mad.
It appears that I am trying to carry on a conversation with Odell, Ghostbuster, Marshall Dillon, and Jack B. Nimble. Oh yes, I think someone also thinks he is jumping Jack's Dad. Guess we will just have to wonder about that one.
No, I am far from mad. I can sling mud and have fun with the best of the jokers when it comes time to do so. Just thought this forum was something to be serious about. Guess not, but I just don't have the time or interest for jokes, grudges, small talk, or BS anymore.
I am about the age of retirement anyway, but you younger people in this profession should get serious and think about the repercussions this type of lawsuit is going to cause. If enough accept this money, it will revolutionize the industry. You may find it hard to make your retirement nest working 40 hours a week and having 7 days expenses. However, "A FRIEND" will be able to rest on Saturday so he can get ready to rest on Sunday. When he goes to Church, his 10% will be so much less that he shouldn't have trouble carrying it inside.
Gentlemen, THE INDEPENDENT ADJUSTING CYCLE IS ABOUT TO TURN AGAIN. Either you are not aware of it or you just don't care. What the Heck. If you guys are happy, I am too. My nest is feathered and waiting for me. Good luck to each of you. I have a strong feeling you are going to need it. |
A Friend
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 10:19 pm: | |
What about those who profess to be Christians and follow the teachings of the bible? Would one of them please explain how they can justify working on the Sabbath when the bible clearly says it is a violation of God's Laws?
I don't expect nor am I asking for the point of view of atheists, and others who may or may not follow a religion which utilizes other teachings than the King James version of the Bible. I do respect other religions and rights of others to believe or not believe whatever they choose. I am just curious how some self professed "christians" can justify ignoring God's laws while maintaining their beliefs. It seems to me that the words I have read here from some show no tolerance for those adjusters who feel they cannot work on the Sabbath Day as it conflicts with the teachings of the Bible. Their answer is, (if you will kindly scroll back and review) if you cannot work 7 days a week (plus long hours) then "get out of this business."
Talk about religious intolerance! |
anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:55 pm: | |
Because, A Friend, it really isn't appropriate to condemn others for what they do when they might not share the same beliefs as you. And as I am fluent in Hebrew you would NOT want to start an argument on this website. As I said, it is inappropriate. |
A Friend
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:51 pm: | |
WHY? |
anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:49 pm: | |
Could we keep religion out of this? |
Santa
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:23 pm: | |
Reminds me of a sign (warning) I saw once (ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE BEWARE! LEAVE ALL HOPE BEHIND!) |
jack b nimble
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:05 pm: | |
Joe Rascal reminds me of the story of Old Blue, the dog who could dish it out but couldn't take it. If you're going to throw mud at others Joe, expect to get a little mud on yourself. |
marshall dillon
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 8:34 pm: | |
That's it Ghostbuster, hit 'em over the head with a bottle of "Jack" and knock some sense in 'em. They wouldn't have a clue as to who the Marquis of Queensberry is or was. Here's the church key dear Sir, and please go have another delicious cold libation on me. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 8:18 pm: | |
Gentlemen...
A modicum of decorum if you please. Marquis of Queensbury rules must be observed at all times. Kindly refrain from pubic displays of personal recrimination and do so only thru the approved venue of personal communications.
My somewhat virginal and delicate sensebilities are at stake here.
We thank you for discreet attention to these most distasteful observations.
Now, where did I mislay my church key for that last bottle of libations... |
odell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 7:15 pm: | |
Joe you still are pissed off about that naca thing last year aren't you? |
Joe W. Rasco
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 6:28 pm: | |
To Jack's Dad, or whoever you are, aren't, or think you may be:
Your reply only deserves an answer to set the record straight for the others within this forum. If you are going to quote me, you should not make up something and write it down as the truth when it is not. One that quotes should quote correctly or his WORD CANNOT BE TRUSTED.
I never said "I am leaving and never coming back." I haven't talked out of both sides of my mouth and never will. WHAT I SAID CAN BE VERIFIED IN MY DECEMBER 4, 1999 POSTING UNDER NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CATASTROPHE ADJUSTER(NACA). I said, "as for me, I plan to delete this location from my favorites as soon as I finish this. I do wish each of you health and a happy life. That goes for whoever Anonymous is as well. Good bye."
I deleted the forum location from my favorites, but I never said that I would not be back.
Guess what Jack? WHO NOW CANNOT BE TRUSTED? It appears your dad has a problem and can use that ethic's class but I will not teach it.
Jack's Dad, as long as you hid behind anonymous postings, why should I care if my word means nothing to you? After all, you are NOBODY. Come out from your vail and be SOMEBODY. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 3:15 pm: | |
I too thought there were some excellent points contained within the email from "Name Withheld" and agree with you Tom. I will be happy to post other messages or posts from CADO readers seeking anonymity in similar circumstances. Your comments have been passed along Tom. |
Tom
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 1:34 pm: | |
Jim, Please pass on my thanks to the CADO reader for taking the time to put this issue in the proper perspective. He has provided an insight based on the experience that would only come from spending time in the profession and seeing how it has changed in the last several years.
No matter what individuals opinions are on this matter each should read and gain valuable knowledge from this person's experience. |
Jack's Dad
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 12:48 pm: | |
I think this Joe "Mr high ideals and principles" Rasco who now professes to believe in being a "person of your word" is the same Joe Rasco who last year on this board was talking about naca and then went on to say: "I am leaving and never coming back." Maybe he should consider teaching a class in situational ethics. You can't have it both ways Joe unless you want to appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth, a/k/a lying. Your word then means nothing now. |
Tom Weems
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 12:46 pm: | |
My principals are not for sale, for $5k or for any other sum. I did not earn this money, and I hope they do return it to Pilot. This lawsuit looks to me like legal blackmail, and I wish to have nothing to do with it. Too many lawyers in the Great State of California.
Joe, good for you. Amen, as it were... |
Still Your Friend
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 11:15 am: | |
Mr Rasco I was not trying to RIGHT something that was WRONG as you say.
Pilot paid for ignoring man's laws here in earth by having to pay out $6 Million Dollars.
You will have to explain to St Peter and Our Lord when you get to the pearly gates why YOU ignored God's Law as outlined in my post from Exodus.
The price for ignoring God's law is a little more expensive than the price for ignoring man's law.
It is called eternal damnation.
Again, in looking back at God's insurance policy (contained in the Bible in case you don't know where to find it), there are no exclusions whatsoever for working on the Sabbath, even for catastrophe adjusters. If I am wrong, please respond with the appropriate passage for all to see.
May God have mercy on your unbelieving soul Mr Rasco. |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 10:54 am: | |
I received the following email from a CADO reader with the request that I post it anonymously.
*******************************************************************************************************************************
Please send a copy of the Pilot lawsuit documents. Mine were sent to my home, but I am currently on the road on an assignment with another vendor. My wife called to first tell me that I was being sued for approximately $5,000.00 and then she retracted and stated that they (Pilot) owed me around $5,000.00. I have not seen the package yet, but this is a pretty attractive sum of money. I was torn about entering my claim. However, I have been in this business for most of my life. I have seen the steady drop in fee schedules and this can be directly attributed to Pilot and Wardlaw. Additionally, the independent adjuster has been tasked with underwriting duties, customer service, and voluminous paper work that all adds up to increased time spent assembling loss adjustment files for payment or presentation which in turn reduces the amount of claims that can be processed by the adjuster.
Gone are the days of arriving at a storm and receiving 150-200 claims. We now arrive 2,000 miles from home and receive 60 assignments. The concept of claims ownership has been destroyed, as the companies have engaged in aggressive customer service campaigns. Regardless of the adjuster's efforts to adjust the loss, his or her efforts are often reduced to an appraisal of damages as the insurance company will normally assume the customoer's opinion of damage carries more weight than an accurate adjustment.
Don't get me wrong, Pilot usually kept me on the road 300 plus days a year, but one of the reasons that I went independent was to enjoy working eight or nine months a year and spending the rest of the time with my family with a comfortable amount of money in the bank.
Now, I am having to spend 11-12 months a year on the road to achieve the same income level. This is due in part to the increased cost of doing business (computers, software, living expenses, etc.) and the reduced number of claims which I receive when I arrive at the storm.
I am sure the company enjoys the bragging rights of having a 2,500 claim storm "closed" in Twenty One days. But, the reality is they deploy 50 adjusters who get 50 claims. This sucks to put it mildly. A couple of clean up people like myself are then left behind to handle the mess. Losses that are correctly handled and documented are assigned to me for a reinspection when the diary, measurements, and photos clearly show the need for no further action. However, it is becoming more the standard that the adjusters are hitting the high points in the loss and creaming the storm (either by design or incompetence), and getting out while the getting is good.
I am sure that there is room for anyone who has the ambition, drive, and TALENT to join our industry, but what would attract the true professional to this industry? I can't count the number of times I have had to use an engineer on a controversial or disputed loss, and the engineer's bill is $1,800.00 to $2,500.00 while mine is $200.00 or less. The engineers provide a visual inspection only, without having to provide detailed repair procedures, calculations or other concrete recommendations. Their invoices are then gladly paid, while mine is fussed over because I took 15 photos. Not to mention the hours of time (Time=$$) spent defending my position to the insured and carrier,,,,,,Incredible!
I think that I will participate in this settlement because it has set a precedence. It may lead to increased pay or it may further reduce our pay by reducing the amount of claims that we are assigned due to increased regulation on the amount of time we can spend on working. Either way, the damage is done.
This is one time I am getting while the getting is good.
P.S.: A friend of mine who is also an adjuster called Pilot. They stated that the lawsuit has been settled out of court, the monies that are listed in your packahe are due to you, and if you do not claim them, they will be placed in an unclaimed money fund, and eventually returned to Pilot. Thought that might help.
Rambling Thanks,
Name Withheld By Request |
JOE W. RASCO
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 10:48 am: | |
TO: TOM TOLL, MIKE & MARIAH DOWNEY, BOB BARTON, ANDREW SLOANE, TOM WEEMS, MARK GAMMILL, AND ALL WITH PRINCIPLES SUCH AS YOURS
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! If one has been wronged, I think he/she should be compensated. By the same token, why should one be compensated if one has not been wronged? Those of us that worked the claims of the Northridge earthquake for PILOT knew up front what would be expected and how much we could earn for those expectations. Each was well compensated for our time and efforts.
And "FRIEND", your posting of all postings got to me. The very idea of using the Bible to try and RIGHT something that is just plain WRONG! Shame on you! If you were there, you agreed to work 7 days a week like all of us. It was YOUR decision.
ALAN JACKSON, this is the very thing that makes the need for agreements and contracts such as the PILOT AGREEMENT in today's times. Oh yes, are you the same Jackson that worked claims with your father for Winters and Eberl?
What ever happened to the "handshake" and "being a man of my word, or person of your word"? I guess it must have gone by way of the people wanting something for nothing and the dollar grabbing plaintiff attorneys. I hope each of us will realize the bad law this creates for us in the catastrophe business. Someone will pay the tab, and that someone will ultimately be the catastrophe adjuster. You just don't get something for nothing.
I for one will not be a part of the prey and will continue to hold my head high. My parents reared me with high ideals and principles and they are not for sell at any price. |
old timer
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 10:15 am: | |
I wonder what the Pilot boys would do if the shoe was on the other foot and it was your money sitting there in a legal settlement fund waiting for them to take it? Mmmmm, I'll just bet......... |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:54 am: | |
And for those of us that were too busy lusting after the pretty Sunday School teacher with her boufant hairdoo and clingy flannel pink dress, I humbly offer the following epistles:
From St Anonymous- "A bird in the hand beats two in the bush".(Tho it can also be a lot messier.)
From St Judas Priest- "Out there is a fortune waiting to be had, if you think I'm gonna stay, you're mad, you got another think coming."
From St Diamond Jim- "With four aces in hand and a pistol in your lap, you never have to bluff, just go ahead and bet the farm."
Thus our parting prayer is: Just take the money and run. |
DJ
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 9:07 am: | |
Mark and Stacie, you might read the lawsuit again. If you send a letter to exempt yourself from this suit, it means you can sue Pilot on your own(in Mobile). If you don't return anything, you will be held to the conditions of this suit but will receive no monies. |
A Friend
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 10:19 pm: | |
Something to consider.
Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work.
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
St Matthew 16:
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his own soul?
Think about it. In reading the insurance policy of Our Lord, it does not mention any exclusions for when one is working on a catastrophe. |
Mark and Stacie Gammill
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 9:14 pm: | |
We, too, agree with Mike & Mariah Downey. All dealings we have had with Pilot have been fair and upfront. We have enjoyed working for Pilot and have a high respect for the company. We want no part of Mr Babinski's lawsuit. We will be sending the letter to exclude us from the proceedings ASAP. |
Tom Weems
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 5:40 pm: | |
I too just received the Babinski vs Pilot trash in the mail. This is another example of why I would never willingly live in California. Mr. Babinski, get a life. |
Andrew King Sloane
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 11:57 am: | |
This is my first time to post on this forum so I will not try to bore yall with details. I am a member of the class action lawsuit filed by Mr. Babinski against the Pilots. I have been a storm trooper for going on seven years now and have worked for the Pilot organization for over a year and a half since I started in our profession. I spoke with Pilot's legal staff this morning to insure I was not included in this class action. Plain and simple, I knew every storm I worked for them what was expected and the schedule. I don't want money I did not earn! I work for another major Catastrophe Co. at this time and the same thing was filed on them in years past.("Sonnier"), some of the old timers may remember. Don't lose sight of of the goal folks. The Pilots pay what they owe and they dont owe this ignoble, snivelling whiner or anyone else a penny more than what they earned per the schedule they were provided. Seems to me Babinski just cut his nose off to spite his face for chump change. By the way, if you do not do anything you will not be included in the settlement if you were named. You might call the the Pilot legal dept. and let them know. @800-345-2287. We are "Professionals" not money mongering whores. Jim & Roy, keep up the good work. |
Bob Barton
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 9:26 am: | |
Hey people... simple question? Did they tell you what was expected of you and the amount you would be paid for the work? They explained it to me. If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. This is not the first company that this has happened to and it won't be the last.... however this is a personal decision and I for one am out of the construction bussiness and into adjusting because of something very similar to this. Who gets the money? who cares I was paid for my work and have no complaints in that department. Maybe a few other areas and aspects of the job,but not the pay.... First time to leave a comment here..... Hi doug |
older than dirt
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 9:44 pm: | |
I work my hours because I want to. I enjoy the push and then I enjoy the rest after. I have worked for Pilot and I understood that I was paid per file. On per diem it is for 12 hours for a set rate. What could be the result of this, fwere files and less money ofr each of us. This is not good news for those real adjusters who like to work. |
Mike and Mariah Downey
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 8:31 pm: | |
We agree with Paul and David. Adjusters sign onto a storm with the knowledge that there are going to be long hours. Normally, the longer the hours, the more you make. It has been our experience that Pilot has always lived up to their agreement as to payment and never misrepresented their expectations. One of the jobs we did for Pilot was Polybutylene Pipe replacement inspections. It was hard work, crawling under mobile homes all day long. It didn't pay enough to attract the old timer adjusters. We knew up front what it paid and what was expected of us. Not only do we not want to participate with the malcontents, and the ones with a gripe against Pilot, we want to get our names off of the participating group. According to the document (it sounds like) even if we don't elect to collect money that we haven't earned, our name will be included in the group list. The document makes it sound like if you want to get off the list, you are wanting to pursue your own claim. We would hate to have to hire a lawyer to interpret this just to get clear of it. We have not been wronged, and will not prey on the misfortune of a company that has been attacked that has been fair and upfront with us. |
smith
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 8:05 pm: | |
thank you for the email on the suit settlement documents. those guys who are expecting a windfall better put a sharp pencil to it- as usual in a class-action, the plaintiff attorneys stand to gain more than anyone else. and they will take their cut, plus expenses, out of that 6 mil. (i shoulda listened when my daddy told me to go on to law school- i'd be rich by now.) it;s interesting that we're just now hearing about the proposed settlement, and the affected people have only until the end of the month to make a decision and respond. it's also interesting that pilot, as part of the settlement, agreed to essentially say nothing negative about the plaintiff's attorney's cut. whatever... i'll bet a lot of adjusters and venders will be thinking about this for a while. |
David Bennett
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 6:43 pm: | |
Would like to see the original pleadings of the suit California like many other states, mandates overtime for employees who are generally classified as exempt. (I think this is the term) What it has to do with was keeping track of those employees who are elgible for overtime IE Clerical. Most Adjusters and Managers are paid a salary not hourly and don't fall within the laws for overtime. As Independants or Cat adjusters, we generally can set our own hours except in those cases where we obtain a per day figure. If any of us think that in the event of a storm, that we can get away with out working 13 to 14 hours a day until the influx slows, we are in the wrong business.
With my last employer, I managed the cat operations and can tell you that the staff personnel was putting in 13 to 16 hours a day to keep things running smoothly. The I.A.'s we used set their own hours based on the volume. The clerical were paid for their overtime. The adjusters and managers were given a per day bonus for cat duty as long as they stayed out over 7 days.
I would be real suprised if these papers generate found money for an Independant who really sets his own agenda. But!!! Stanger things have happened.
Send the papers back in, why not. But to those who believe the long hours are not necassary or a burden, Your in the wrong business. This is the time when the Insurance Companies must shine with their claim service, whether it be by staff or I.A. Most Cat Offices set up by the companies run 12 hours if not 24 hours a day. Besides, there is plenty of time to rest after the storm. This is why we get paid what we get paid to do. |
Wanderadjuster
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 5:48 pm: | |
Who is the old timer, the phantom? Who are these masked men? Sometimes they are truly altruistic, sometimes deadon pragmatic, (nearly) always interesting ... but sometimes the clay toes look a little putty (petty). Are they one and the same with two masks?
I like them both. Seem to be good human beings doing their best to be better human beings.
Bueno Suerte, Mr. Ole Timer and Mr. Phantom ... do not let the scorched earth winds burn you down.
Wanderadjuster |
old timer
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 1:50 pm: | |
As I understand it, the class action brought against Pilot had to do with their failure to comply with the laws of California relating to employment practices. Am I to understand that anyone would suggest that Pilot or any other vendor be allowed to circumvent or ignore the laws of California or any other state?
It seems to me that there is a reason that laws were adopted to limit the hours in which pilots can fly airplanes and long haul truckers can drive their rigs down the Interstate highway system. The reason behind it is that when people get tired, they make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes costs them their life or the lives of others. When adjusters get tired from excessive hours, they make mistakes too. And those mistakes either cost the insured or the carrier or even the adjuster money.
When anyone works 16+ hours a day, 7 days a week, they cannot possibly function at their mental and intellectual best. Further, those kind of hours combined with the stress of the job we do, takes a sometimes hidden cost to our bodies which are reflected in increased heart attack risk, and other disorders which can decrease our life expectancy.
Finally, by working 16+ hours per day, and 7 days a week, we are not honoring the words of our Creator who said that the Seventh Day is for rest and honoring him.
Perhaps instead of getting out of this business because you would like to honor your Creator or have a "life", or enjoy some time with your loved ones, it is time for some to look with more moderation at the different needs that others may have and allow them the flexibility to work shorter hours as they may deem necessary.
No one on their death bed ever looks back as says: Gee, you know I wish I had spent more time in the office or working.
Stop and think about it. Shouldn't we all have some time for ourselves to stop and smell the roses? |
Tom Toll
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 1:31 pm: | |
Well, lets figure this one out. I have been catting for a long time. I have worked with numerous vendors and have enjoyed the relationship with them. My wife and I put in at a minimum 16 hours per day, 7 days a week. We do this because we enjoy helping other people and during that process, we make a decent living. We will never be a Bill Gates, but who wants to be.
If I sued the vendors that I worked for and asked for back pay, how much would that be. It would be a ton of money, probably enough to retire on, based on the 40 years I have been a licensed adjuster. I am 60 now and would like to have a pot full of gold. But guess what, Janice and I are the ones that made the decision to work those hours. We don't look for handouts, we accept or reject what is offered by the vendors, pure and simple. I don't hate attorneys, but have a hard dislike for a lot of them. Attorneys are a necessity in todays society, but there are some that I wish would step off a mountain. There are some adjusters I feel the same way about. No one is perfect and all of us have character flaws, but we should not be tarred and feathered for those flaws, unless we deliberatley set out to hurt someone. If you do not want to work at this occupation because of the necessary long hours, get out. We don't need you.
Have a nice day!! |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 11:54 am: | |
If anyone would like a complete copy of the Pilot Class Action lawsuit documents, I will be happy to send them to you by email. Just send me an email requesting a copy or post your correct email address here along with your request. |
porchclimber2
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 11:42 am: | |
This claim against Pilot is for overtime, the federal law says if you work over 40 hours a week that you are to be paid overtime at a rate of 1 1/2 times the amount that you received per hour.
In prior cases that I have heard about they are getting off easy.
EXAMPLE of other settlements
you work 100 hrs in a week
you get 50.00 per hour----------------5,000.00
the labor law says the 5-m is for 40 hrs
that averages out to be 125.00 per hour and
you are to get 1 1/2 times that amount for
the other 60 hrs that comes to 187.50 X 60=11,250.00 dollars so if you go by what this law says, they are getting off good..dont you think....
Figure up the # of hours a storm trooper puts in and you will see what kind of problems a company can get into if they don't go by the rules...
If they went by this we would work less hours at a higher rate or could not afford to go to a storm, so if you can come up with a good solution let us all know....
ITS THE HAZZARDS OF THE TRADE.... |
Jim Flynt
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 8:50 am: | |
Alan, Chuck and Dave are absolutely right. We NEED YOU on the CADO site and many of us appreciate your wisdom and insight.
Please reconsider and come back in here and join us. Even the best of us get shot at sometimes. |
R.D. Hood
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 8:36 am: | |
Alan,
I hereby second the motion.
Although You may be disuaded by some of the postings.
Many are made without much, if any, thought given, and most likely without having "the rest of the story" to ascertain the facts. (Note some of the apologies)
Talent and insight of your caliber are sorely needed , in this or any profession. Please do not let the ramblings of one or two prevent you from rendering your valued assistance to the adjusting communnity at large.
We all get to point where, "take this job and shove it", is the next step. And perhaps it is time for you. BUT, your reconsideration will be sincerly appreicated by many. ( Im done) |
cfdeaton
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 8:18 am: | |
Alan, I, for one, will miss your postings. |
eqkid
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:59 pm: | |
Take the money... if you don't it will just be retained by the law firm... |
ALAN JACKSON
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES PEOPLE!!!!
I'M DONE
15 YEARS OF CAT ADJUSTING
3 YEARS OF LAW SCHOOL, ( AND STILL DO CAT WORK )
YOU PEOPLE STILL WILL NOT LISTEN
TO MANY YEARS OF HATING LAWYERS, BUT ONE DAY WE ALL NEED ONE.
GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BYE.
ALJLAW@AOL.COM
PS: I HAVE ALWAYS USED MY REAL NAME AND E-MAIL ADDRESS. |
Lance Squigman
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:27 pm: | |
I was hesitant to visit this site again because that one adjuster made me feel old, refering to his Noah's Ark claim. Ha Ha, wait til you are my age, sonny boy. I am still busy handling high profile airline claims on the West Coast and have not had the time to sign on. But an ole buddy of mine informed me about this latest lawsuit and I figured there would be some howling among you young pups. Hats off to Mr.Baboinski, that fella has got some spunk. I sure like a fella who stands up for what he believes is right. Not many folks do anymore when there is money involved, present or future earnings. Hey, being new to the computer and all, Did you know you can look up naked women on the internet? |
Paul
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 6:50 pm: | |
I received mine in the mail and I thought I was being sued. When I work with Pilot I am treated fairly. (to bad for the people that did not).
If I ask a question, I received an answer. If the filed manager did not know the answer, he found out quickly and then answered me.
I sent in billing, I recieved a paycheck, ( every two weeks ). I call for deployment, they send me somewhere.
I live a very comfortable lifestyle working with Pilot. I did not work in California for them so I have no gripes with a case I did not participate in. I got in to this business because of the liability issue's with my general contracting firm, (we just got to big).
I know this posting will just Pi-- off many people but I am not here to win a popularity contest nor do these peolpe that I pi-- off pay my bills. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 3:54 pm: | |
I'd love to, but don't have a scanner. Maybe after the next storm. No, got other things to pay for after the next storm. How about after the storm after that? If I knew your FAX #, I could FAX it to you. FAX machine hasn't broken yet. (Knock on wood!) |
paladin
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 2:59 pm: | |
While the discussion in going on why don't you all keep in mind a few things. Pilot gave a lot of adjusters long term jobs as a result of Northridge (as did many others), many active cat adjusters got their start there and there wasn't many complaints when the checks were arriving in 94 and 95. Granted, if there were wrongs that needed addressed, its been done. I did not like a lot of things that were tried out there, but I did not have any complaints regarding any disagreements on bills. As long as I could show and document the bill it wasn't a problem. Personally I didn't care for some of the people involved, but business is business. And by the way, I haven't worked for Pilot in several years, mainly I've been out on assignment or had other committments. I've received the papers, and I'll send them in, see what happens. Court ordered settlement and if I never get a call to work OK, if I do great. I have no personal axes to grind or dogs in the fight as my neighbors east of me like to say. |
CADO Staff
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 2:50 pm: | |
Ghostbuster, if you will scan the letter you received and send it to Roy or myself, we will post it on the Forum for interested readers to read and review. |
Ghostbuster
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 2:30 pm: | |
oooh-ooh-oooh! Guess what boys and girls! I got mine in the mail today. And it sure does look like a Whopper! This is case # 98-8459 JSL (VAPx). A class action involving a poor soul one, Lawrence Babinski vs (our old pals) Pilot and Associates!
Seems our old pals are gonna have to fork over $6,000,000 to settle this baby. The award of attorney fees ain't gonna be cheap either. Thats on page 8. Final approval hearing is set for April 17, 2000 in downtown LA in Spencer Letts court room. Here come the Judge! Here come the Judge!
You know what with finances being what they are right now, I sure could use this piece of change listed on the bottom of page 1. Where do I sign and has the mailman come yet??? |
ksmith
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 1:23 pm: | |
alan- if you come up with any info on that case, i'd be interested in knowing on what law or theory of liability plaintiff is basing their case; what citations, if any; and whethor or not this is based on federal or state statue. thanks |
alanjackson
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 12:31 pm: | |
Received partial case number. Case name is Lawrenece Babinski v Pilot. I'm still checking westlaw. Check case number again and let me know.
Also, check discussion, ( arbitration agreement in pilots employment contract)
Know we know why they put arbitration agreement in their new contract. |
Alan Jackson
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:12 am: | |
If someone will post the case action number, I'll look it up on westlaw and see that it get's forwarded. Or just e-mail it to mee at ALJLAW@AOL.COM A. Jackson |
UNCLE
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 8:30 am: | |
THE ADJUSTING COMPANIES BROKE THE LAW BY NOT PAYING OVER TIME WHO ARE THEY, OVER THE LAW HOWEVER ARE THEY CHARGING THE CLIENT OVER TIME ON US THINK ABOUT IF THEY OWN IT THEY NEED TO PAY IT NO IF YOU GET PAYED A DAILEY RATE HOW MANY HOURS 18 A DAY I DONT THINK SO. THEY TRY TO HOLD BACK MONEY OR CHARGE IT BACK TO YOU ANY KIND OF WAY THEY CAN |
smith
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 9:10 pm: | |
auntie- sorry that i didn't make this clear in prior post, but the info i mentioned is, or should be, public info- it's already a matter of public record at the court house. also, is that a proposed settlement of a class action lawsuit or a solicitation to join one? |
ksmith
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 8:38 pm: | |
auntie- i'll bet there are a lot of claimspeople, venders as well as adjusters, interested in that case. would you mind posting the style of the case or, alternatively, the petition number, district court number, and location (city) of the court? that info is probably somewhere on the papers you have. and i'd feel out some of the other people who worked that asssignement with you, as well as the company people- see what their attutide is before you make a decision. thanks |
AuntieEmm
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 6:37 pm: | |
What I received was a copy of the legal document from the United States District Court in California. It states the Plaintiff and the Defendents. It oulines the case. A Proof and Claim and Release was sent also. I am to sign this in order to participate in the Settlement Fund. I am not sure how much info I can provide about the documents sent to me on a public forum. I suppose copies of this legal documents are open to the public. But I am not sure so I don't want to jeopardize myself. Like I mentioned, this adjuster sued this company for overtime/benefits during the earthquake. The suit now covers anyone who worked for the company during 1994-1999. I fall into that area. The document said I am entitled to several hundred dollars. But, is it worth it? I am not even sure why I should receive this money. While I did work long hours on a Cat, I was paid a daily rate which was more money then I could possibly have made anywhere else that I am qualified. I am not sure I even agree with this lawsuit. |
lmushred
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 5:12 pm: | |
Annie:
After doing some thinking and talking with a friend that knows more about law than I do,
it might be really beneficial if you would post the letter for us so we can see exactly what the letter says and the intent of the letter. There is a couple of items here that just don't quite add up. With the posting of the letter maybe we could give you a little more correct advise to go on. |
lmushred
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 3:41 pm: | |
Annie:
I am not a expert or an attorney here but from
what I can see, if you sign the papers and obtain
the money, you may not work for the Company in question, but you may not work for any other companies either. This business is really a SMALL family when everything is said and done. Supervisors and management from these various companies leave one company and go to others.
I know I would leave the sleeping dogs alone and go on with my life. Sure I may lose some easy money but I really don't want to go out and
learn a new occupation because the chances are I wouldn't be working in this one again.
Of course this is my opinion. |
aCATman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 3:39 pm: | |
AuntieEmm
To borrow a movie phrase, "Show me the money", and a more recent TV jargon, "Is that your final answer?".
Why would you not participate? Sounds like it is compensation for the time you spent working as an employee and were eligible for benefits that were paid other employees but not you. Hey you are not one of those dumb adjusters I hear so much about? Are you?
GO FOR IT. |
AuntieEmm
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 2:01 pm: | |
I just received in the mail a letter stating that a civil lawsuit had been filed against a large CAT company regarding overtime. An adjuster in Los Angeles during the earthquake filed a lawsuit against the CAT employer. The letter went on to state that since I worked during the years in question I am entitled to part of the settlement. It seems the company settled out of court as opposed to fighting this adjuster's claim. I need some advice on whether I should sign this form to receive my money. I have only been an adjuster for a few years and this company does call me for work. If I sign does that mean I will never work for this company again? I really can't afford to burn any bridges. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. |
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