| Author |
Message |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 7:13 pm: | |
Jim,
My prior abritration response was an attempt to answer Marks question placed to me in his post. As you pointed out your post was limited to mold adjusters working T & E. Marks question involved Mold Adjusters who had signed arbitration agreements. I do believe that I have kept my post to the related thread of mold.
I am not advocating any type class action anything. I merely answered the mans question the best way that I could. I'm sorry that you feel my answer was a red herring. Maybe you need to once again read up on the subject. |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 7:03 pm: | |
Jim, what kind of assurances do you suggest that these T & E Mold adjusters get from their vendor? What should they consider adequate assurances and in what form should these assurances be?? It's easy to say be careful, But, what excatly is the definition within the limited scope of this thread? |
R.D. Hood (Dave)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 5:14 pm: | |
And getting back to the subject at hand, (as originally intended,thanks,JF)
This issue is heating up like a tea kettle on a 1,000,000 BTU burner.
The advice given here , is for the use of they that have committed, (for a year +/-) to this gig.
Granted there are no hurricanes, YET, and granted that there are always insufficent personel available in a "Large Event". BUT what the posters are saying is simple.
1)IF you are there and do not have a guarantee of payment, you are at risk.
2)Those that are there and have no binding commitment , may "walk" in a heartbeat, for an event , where they will be paid. (and while having to wait for some time to get the files closed, they still should be entitled to their portion of the biling)
3)This industry, as a whole, will suffer some serious damage from either of the aforementioned actions.
For furthur information on the concerns of the Insurance Industry, check these two locations, and WYB...............(Watch Your Back)
(Link Removed)
(Link Removed) |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 2:45 pm: | |
Alan, other than Pilot, how many vendors are you aware of that have arbitration agreements?
I have been doing this (cat adjusting) a long time and have never signed nor been asked to sign an arbitration agreement by anyone other than Pilot. And of course their kind offer was refused by this writer.
I am of the opinion first of all, that a majority of cat adjusters do not fall into the situation of being bound under an arbitration agreement.
And secondly, the arbitration agreements never prevent anyone from walking from an assignment.
My earlier post under this thread was specifically focused as a warning to those adjusters specifically out working mold claims exclusively under T&E (time and expense) billing payment schedules. It should not have been inferred and was not intended as opening a dialogue nor advocacy about general topics beyond the specific focus of that mold and T&E warning scenario.
Again, lawsuits and legal actions are Option # 2 for adjusters.
I was merely suggesting Option # 1 of walking away from an assignment when the mold adjusters cannot get a written agreeement protecting theie pay from the vendors and/or carriers.
My warning remains specific to mold adjusters to CYA (cover your assets) if you are handling mold claims on a T&E schedule and payment basis.
What I am not doing and never intended to do is to advocate or suggest class action lawsuits against any vendor/carrier which Alan appears ready to endorse.
His advocacy while interesting also appears to be inflammatory in intent and from my perspective, is a red herring in the discussion about mold practices.
May I suggest to Alan that he open a new Forum thread for discussion of the nuances and legal machinations of arbitration agreements and allow this thread to remain focused on mold adjusting issues. |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 12:24 pm: | |
These arbitration agreements are worded so they include everyone. You contract with the vendor for your services. The vendor then contracts with the carrier. These carriers know who the whore vendors are. Why do you think they are doing this?
They have adjusters in place, not a hurricane in sight. The time to tighten the screws is here and thats why they are doing it. If a Hurricane hit's it might lighten up a little. However, as long as people are willing to work for less and less they'll pay less and less. The vendor always get their cut and they always make their money.
You might try to band together to beat the arbitration. But, lawyers want money. We can always pass the hat. However, we did talk about arbitration agreements here last year. The arbitration agreement vendors just led a bunch of trusting hungry sheep to slaughter.
Why do you think they put the arbitration agreement in their contracts. Because it is a license to cheat and steal. I believe we are seeing case and point.
I'll talk to a few arbitration lawyers next week. Let's see if you can beet these things in Texas. E-mail me if you want to know the results. |
Tom Strickland
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 10:54 am: | |
Jim, you are "so right", if you don't like , leave it. That also puts the vendor in a bind of sorts, as he may or may not get to replace the slot or the adjuster. So in a way, it is a little payback, I repeat, little. But that is about all we can do. I firmly believe that (pending my financial situation) that I "do not" have to work for anybody, and that is why "I" chose to do this crazy thing call Cat adjusting. Other than that my b-t-h is just that "mine" and if you or anyone else tend to agree o.k., if not then its still my
b-t-h!!
Have a nice weekend guys, hit'em monday if you are working. |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 10:48 am: | |
Alan, Mark and 'FedUp' just remember that Option # 2 is a lawsuit while Option # 1 is simply walking away from the assignment.
If enough cat adjusters exercise Option # 1, we can and will get their attention, and believe me folks, they won't be laughing.
The right to vote with your feet is a right which should never be given away and one which an arbitration agreement does not take away. |
mark (Olderthendirt)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 10:37 am: | |
Right on Jim, you said it, and this ole boy ain't out there breathing in the mold for a reason! Alan, If a company puts the screws to the adjusters by lowering the fee's, even though there is a vendor in the middle, could the company be open for a class action? Even though the arbitration agreement protects the vendor. |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 9:48 am: | |
As always it appears that Mr. Flynt has hit the nail on the head. However, alot of you have signed ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS. You signed away your constitutional rights to a trial by jury. Guess that eliminates a class action. Arbitration is a lics to steal.
I believe we had a good talk about arbitration agreements about a year or so ago. I think everyone is being set up to get bent over. When you threaten to sue, these guys are going to laugh and say you can't. |
FedUp
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 4:17 am: | |
WHY should CAT ADJUSTERS ever have to FINANCE storms and catastrophes for carriers and vendors by deferring OUR PAY?
Simple... Because we have lead them to believe that we will accept any fee schedule and any conditions they impose. We need to Vote with our feet AS A GROUP! wait till the next big one hits and pick the biggest "offender vendor" = whorer, and just take them off our list as a group. The insureds will still get serviced but through a different vendor. Lets make an example of the worst whore and put this business back on it's feet. what happened to the 80/20 split? the carriers all have more than one vendor because they want to protect themselves from just such an uprising. The vendors have all sold us out. It's time to stand up for ourselves or die. |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 1:40 am: | |
Dave, I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts and share your concern about the potential for many cat adjusters to get screwed out of their rightful pay on some of these mold assignments.
From my discussions with several cat adjusters currently out on assignment handling mold claims, I find many on a Time and Expense (T&E) billing basis, with the carriers requesting that the file not be billed until the claim is closed. In many cases that is anticipated to take 3 to 9 months and possibly upwards to a year or more.
I have shared my utmost concern with those same adjusters that many of these carriers are satisfied with this arrangement right now and quite flattering in their praise of these adjusters and their work product in the present time frame. However, just wait until some of the cat adjusters rightfully bill their file hours for just one file and the service bill is in excess of $10,000.00 or $20,000.00 or even $30,000.00 (for ONE CLAIM FILE) and see what happens.
Here is my prediction: within one year you are going to see the CADO Forum and CADO Bulletin Board plastered with posts from cat adjusters who were bilked out of their pay from mold assignments.
Adjusters SHOULD NOT TAKE any mold assignments from any carrier or vendor without an agreement that their T&E billing and pay can and should be done on an interim basis of at least every ten days to two weeks. Unsavory medicine is always easier to swallow and more palatable in small sips rather than in large doses (even for carriers).
Plus if there is a problem with billing practices (hours) and service billing rates, you spot it up front when you can still do something about it (including walking from the assignment).
Secondly, adjusters should have written agreements with the vendors that their billed hours and billable rates will not be lowered without concurrence of the adjuster as well as vendor. This agreement should extend to the vendor insuring that the adjuster will be paid on billed hours and at the billing rate which was negotiated and agreed on prior to commencement of the assignment.
Both of the above agreements should be in writing and signed by at least two vendor representatives who are either princpals or officers of the vendor organization.
We all know what happens. One day the file is finally closed, and the billing easily could be in the Ten to Thirty Thousand ($10,000.00-$30,000.00) range on a file. The carrier complains about the magnitude of the claims costs, and the vendor lowers the billing to satisfy the carrier without ever asking the adjuster and many times not even advising them of such. Remember, WE are Independent Contractors and such actions by carriers and vendors are not only unfair, unreasonable and unethical, but undoubtedly illegal should they be challenged within the judicial system.
If ever there was a time to 'know before you go' and protect yourself from a potential personal financial catastrophe, that time is now.
Don't come back a year from now complaining that you weren't warned and had no idea this could happen. It can happen and IT WILL HAPPEN.
This is one time and one issue on which we should all stand united. I don't ever want to be the one to have to come back here and say "I told you so" (especially with having posted this quite specific warning weeks and months in advance of your pain).
If the vendor and carrier cannot or will not agree to these two simple suggestions ( 1. Interim Billing 2. Vendor insured payment based on billed hours and billable rates) now, that is a pretty damn good clue as to what you can expect down the road when you bill those mold files for rightfully expended hours which translate into claim costs to the carriers in the tens of thousands of dollars range.
If I couldn't get that agreement in writing up front, then folks I'm sorry, then it would be time for this old country boy to walk away from the assignment and head on back to the ranch and watch some other unsuspecting soul learn the hard way.
This is without question the most severe warning I have ever posted or ever could post on this site, but it is also the one most likely to save many adjusters from serious financial consequences and pain.
'Voting with your feet' may well be the only option to protect yourself from egregious acts with dire consequences should the vendors and carriers fail to provide you protection in the form of binding legally enforceable written agreements.
Any time a carrier or vendor requests your concurrence or advises you of a change in pay schedules, which in effect lowers your pay which was previously agreed upon, it is time to walk away from the assignment and go home (or find another assignment or vendor). It is also known in retailing as the old bait and switch which as we all know is nothing more nor less than an intended fraud from a deliberate initial misrepresentation.
Finally, Dave is right about one last thing: WHY should CAT ADJUSTERS ever have to FINANCE storms and catastrophes for carriers and vendors by deferring OUR PAY?
AND.
At NO INTEREST to boot! |
R.D. Hood (Dave)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 1:27 pm: | |
Interesting tid-bit passed on to me yesterday. Seems that ONE? of the IA's contracted to ONE? of the carriers has changed their thought process on paying the "Mold Adjusters/Inspectors/" as originally agreed. And to make it interesting, there is no office locally, all work out of their hotel/aptartments, receive info by fax/email and dont know who the other adjusters are. (Divide and Conquor?)
First it was a daily rate,(paid every 2 weeks), then it went to an hourly rate,(paid every 2 weeks), then to being paid every thiry (30) days and now it seems they want the adjuster/inspector, to bill every 60 days.
What a hoot, we go out and FINANCE the IA and Carrier, for 60 days before we bill?, And then wait to get paid till ??.
How bad can it get, maybe they will be happy if we work all year and send a bill on 12/30 and wait till June of next year to get paid, with no interest,of course ...........
This is turning into a profession that any decent,thinking and responsible individual may wish to give pause.
Even the "know before you go"(JF), cant be relied upon. NOW, if you think on this, IF they had you sign an agreement, (common)and IF they told you what and when you will be paid, that is a tacid contract and you can hold their feet to the fire to enfore it.
IMHO, anyone that accepts the altered original agreement and wishs to accept less than the agreed upon fee and payment schedule does so at their own peril.
"caveat Emptor" |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 8:16 am: | |
Folks, the key word in what I said (in the previous post) was this: "If you are ONLY in cat adjusting for the money, then perhaps it is time to get out."
I stand by my statement and belief. |
Kile Anderson (Kileanderson)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 1:29 am: | |
There are lots of cat workers that don't do it for the money. They work for FEMA and the Red Cross. Those of us with the tape measures and the check books do it for the money. |
HailBuster
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 12:24 am: | |
You guys are all missing the point! If it was not for the "money" We may all not be in this business. Tell the truth, How many of you have been working for 2-3 months, just to help the policyholder, or the carrier or vendor, or feed your ego. I have never met "ANYONE" in my 25+ years that went storming without asking about the "money", so yes my good friends, it is the money, Nobody, I mean Nobody has went and worked without it. and guess what nobody would. If anyone out there will go to a cat site and work without the money, call me I could use some help for nothing. (smile)
Really Money is the motivator, but integrity, helping people, and satisfaction of job well done is so intwined in our business that all play a part.
Now for gold, etc, forget, these guys are working claims (inspecting) getting C.I.H's report and then preparing an estimate, and after 3-6 months will bill for services rendered and hope like heck they get paid. |
LdyDiver
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 12:15 pm: | |
I'm not in this business, JUST for the money, although it is a modivating factor. My family and I do like to eat, but my question is, if Mold Is Gold, then why are there so many of us setting around waiting for work? Why aren't the companies calling people that they know are setting and waiting for work? I'd rather work a sewer backup than just be setting and waiting and I am sure that I'm not the only one that feels that way.
My point is, Mold may be Gold for some people, such as the lawyers, but I don't think that it is so good for us indep. adjusters. |
MIchael A. Hillis (Iadjstm)
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 11:57 am: | |
If you are in the business just for the money I agree with Jim, maybe you should get out of it!!
Yes when you are on assignment you work very long hours and without a day off unless you are the type of adjuster that inspects and inspects without writting up any claims. Before you know it you are in the appartment or motel room just writting up claims. And by the way if you do the claims that way how many claims do you forget items or start guessing about what type of repairs are needed.
We are there to help the people that needs it due to the circumstances and the devastation. Myself and many more adjusters I know ae there for the people. But if your only there for the money try another profession.
Yes if you handle youself and the claims properly you can make a good living but you put some away for the dry spells. If you are fortunate enough there will always be adjusting work you can do,and there are many adjusters that feel the same way!! |
claims dude
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 11:29 am: | |
To suppose that anyone is in the cat business without considering the money is a fool and to suggest otherwise my friend is somewhat on the altruistic side. Of course the money is the main motivating factor. Who would put up with the long hours, people constantly bitching about the settlement, the fact that you did not contact them the day after their loss, etc., adnusium, adinfinitum.
Get real dude. |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 3:21 am: | |
Well, let's see there LD, have you considered arson, insurance fraud, writing worthless checks, or just plain ole bank robbing? (Or as my old friend and fellow adjuster Russ Lott likes to say, they still have positions open down at your local Wal-Mart as store greeters for those willing to work.)
Remember what that feller said one time about he only robbed banks 'cause that's where the money was? Supposedly he 'retired' to some nice digs with '3 hots and a cot' as well as weekly maid service and around the clock security which you may want to consider.
If you're only in this (cat adjusting) for the money, then perhaps it's time for you to get out. Just ask any of the old timers if you think I'm wrong.
It's sort of like hula hoops and mood rings and bell bottom jeans; just the latest fad.
Let 'em enjoy it while it lasts. This too shall pass.
(Which makes me wonder why the bible always says "it came to pass" and never says 'it came to stay'.)
In the meantime, just stick to saving and investing a little, a strong work ethic, the tried and true principles of values, honesty, integrity and decency, and everything will come out fine for you and the rest of us who follow the understanding that there is no such thing as a free lunch and no one ever gets something for nothing. (You may not get rich this way, but you will be able to sleep at night).
Seems like some of the cat adjusters (who should know better) are falling into that senseless yet fruitless All American fantasy of winning the big lottery as their 7 course gourmet meal ticket and goose that laid the golden egg retirement fund. (Or as Uncle 'Fatso' used to say: it just don't happen.)
Just something to think about. I would love to chat longer but it is time to get back to work. |
LdyDiver
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 11:56 pm: | |
I just wish I could get some of that "Gold". I'm tired of setting at home. Any ideas? |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 9:56 pm: | |
After Erin B. Spoke,Mercedes sales of ML 520 SL Sports Unt sored. Vehicle sales rose 100% after rush of orders from Plaintiff Lawyers.
Lawyers were heard to say, " There is Gold in Mold"
That explains why my phone has been ringing off the hook. I thank you and so does Mercedes. |
R.D. Hood (Dave)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 10:36 pm: | |
Well, it looks like the mold issue has escaped from the bag in which some were tring to hold it.
What with "Erin Brockovich" of the movie fame, attesting to the fact that her new home is "moldy" and then another couple that burned their home to the ground to "remediate" the mold, and the Ballards from Texas appearing on this Network, "Prime Time" program, which aired tonight.
Whats the next step, where do we go? |
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