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goose
57 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2003 : 11:08:08
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| lol. I am discussing. Let's discuss harnesses, better ladders, etc. Of course it can be dangerous. But like the gunowner that I am, let me decide how to control my own firearms, not the govt. Gotta run. On the way to California, just so I can probably do a big u turn. Everybody be careful. Looks like we are going to be on a lot of roofs soon. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 11:42:40
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| Be careful and may the storm turn you around!!! The older I get, the less I am willing to risk life and limb by doing a controlled slide (if there is such a thing) back to the ladder. I am very interested in discussing how we can ensure adequate compensation for the risk as a whole, or personally, who (which vendor) has the most beneficial attitude and / or policy for not simply taking the good w/ the bad approach regarding their adjuster's safety. Hope to see you in the Carolinas soon, Goose! |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 12:25:47
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I am all for safety. When I was a soldier, we would have a safety briefing every time we moved more than 100 meters, so I know how cumbersome government safety regulations can become. I always thought it was funny how a bunch of 19 year olds were handed thousands of rounds of high powered ammunition and high explosives and the latest, greatest weapons with which to hurl them down range but the safety briefings were always about safe driving and not exceeding the speed limit.
I, as an adult human being, am responsible for my own safety and if I feel that something is too dangerous I will find a safer way to do it. If I get hurt it is my own fault and I will pay the price. The last thing I want is for the government to stick its nose into my business and cost me work and money. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 12:45:35
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| Kile, I too was a soldier (just part-time)and your example brought back some memories as well. I think we will find no one that thinks the good will outweigh the bad once the gov gets involved in anything. I agree with your belief system regarding personal accountability wholeheartedly. Maybe you can share some of your personal experiences regarding the attitudes/procedures your employers have had with regard to safety in the CAT field, AND what you have found to personally benefit you (equipment, practices, etc). I personally have just purchased the Cougar Paws and am anxious to try them out. I have never used any type of safety equipment, and would like to know more. In the past, I've climbed everything I could (including some that I shouldn't have), or done the best job possible with what I could find out.....Yours and anyone else's input would be appreciated. |
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ALANJ
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 12:57:46
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| A brand new pair of nike tennis shoes always works for me. New storm always gets a new pair of shoes. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 13:19:30
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One fall, especially a bad fall, will convince you of the need for safety equipment and a biiiiig dose of common sense.
I haven't sent a widow a donation this year and I don't want to. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 13:20:22
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| Alan, how do you or your employers typically treat the ones the Nike's won't work for? |
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KileAnderson
USA
875 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 13:20:31
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I have been given a ladder safety brochure to read and a simple 10 question ladder safety test an that's about it. I have been told over and over to be careful and if it feels dangerous to you then don't do it, we can always figure out another safer way to do it.
I always use the heaviest ladder that I can find. I know lots of people who like to brag about how light weight their ladders are, but it is amazing how much they flex when you put your average well fed adjuster on them. I use a 17 ft little giant that collapses to about 4.5 feet. I have had people tell me it is too heavy, but I'm a strapping young man, it doesn't bother me and it is nice and stiff so when I climb it I feel confident. My 24ft 2 story ladder is fiberglass and rated for 250lbs, more than enough for me and my equipment.
I carry my camera, film, tape measure, gloves and a few other tools on a tool belt so that my hands are fee for climbing. I always have 2 or 3 pens with me in case one dies or falls and I also carry an extra tape for the same reason.
I make sure my clothes are comfortable and loose fitting enough to provide mobility but not so loose that they catch on things like the top of the ladder. For footwear I have cougar paws but have sense traded them for Merrell hiking and climbing shoes. I think they grip as good if not better than paws and they are alot more comfortable and look like normal shoes.
I learned the hard way that it is always good to have a cell phone on your hip and if there are two adjusters on site it is probably better to have one on the ground at all times. If the ladder falls and you are both on the roof it doesn't do anyone any good. (If anyone is interested I'll tell that story sometime.)
And last but not least, I feel I carry around a fair amount of common sense and I am pretty good at weighing risk. If I feel something is too dangerous I just don't do it and I figure out another way to get it done. Believe it or not a good pair of binoculars and a camera with a zoom lense have come in handy so I always keep those in the truck.
I would be interested to hear what anyone else has to add. |
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catmanager
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 13:43:42
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| I haven't heard of (Thank God!) any deaths either. But a somber moment indeed back in December (Carolina Ice storm) when I accidentally kicked some tree debris that covered up the only way back to ladder (on top of exposed felt) on a detached garage, 8:12. I knew I was going down. The insureds were elderly and inside the dwelling several hundred yards away. I controlled my slide back to the ladder and sort of used it like a pole (pole vault), and used my momentum and ladder and rode it down. I still busted my a@#, but was not injured other than my pride. Upon my return to the storm office, I learned a rookie adjuster working a claim in the Pinehurst country club, had somehow fallen off of his ladder while taking a picture of the gutter. (1 Story, I believe) He sustained serious head trauma, and underwent brain surgery sometime that week. I believe he required extensive rehab. The insureds were not home (it was a vacation house) and if he had not been in a gated, guarded community (the guards came looking for him, he was in the backyard unconscious on the concrete) the doctors said he would've died. Something to think about, freak things occur, even if you aren't two stories up or are on an overly steep roof.......... |
Edited by - catmanager on 09/15/2003 20:09:12 |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 14:33:40
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| Unfortunately falling and getting injured is not a freak thing. I have fallen twice, didn't get hurt, and I figure most adjusters have fallen. While I don't know any personally that died I know several that had life threatening injuries and and more than 20% disability. |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
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CCarr
Canada
1200 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 22:42:39
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Being away from the internet for 3 days, coming back it was nice to see quite a flurry of activity on this site, in various forums and including this thread.
I had hoped that both Ric Vitiello and Tom Toll would have had some input or reflection on my opening post as I used their quotes as openers; perhaps it is to come. Marc Meeker was a keen reader of my opening post, but I must clarify that there was no "hidden hints" of what might come from an OSHA opinion, but an attempt at a direct inference of my opinion that overall there would be wide ranging positive benefits.
I was surprised to see Linda jesting to give up a little known fact, that has been secretly cherished by so few of us, in return for our Ghostbuster not looking out for our egg shells.
It seems clear that many do not realize they are "employees" of their vendors, while maintaining to themselves the belief of an "independent" status beyond the principal of the law.
Why do vendors / carriers call certain roofs "steep" quite different from OSHA regulations and definitions?
I am at a loss to what it is exactly that most are afraid of, regarding an OSHA ruling? How would it lessen your workload? Would it not contribute to your long term safety? Are carriers going to suddenly say that they are not going to have adjusters examine roofs anymore?
Mr. Pason, you tend to think a lot of things are strange and senseless ideas. I'm probably of a similar vintage as you Ted, and like you, have seen a lot of change over the years; but I would suggest that overall - in the big picture - most of it has been beneficial to our health and well being as people in the claims world.
Instead of pounding my opening post anymore, maybe I should just encourage you all to first examine just how "un-independent" you might be, relative only to your applicability to an employee / employer relationship.
I think there are a lot of vendors and carriers at risk in this employee / employer situation relative to job safety, whether it be an adjuster on top of a wind damaged roof or on the floor of a badly burned structure. |
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pilot48
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 23:00:52
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I agree with keeping Uncle Sam as far away as possible, it also seems a lot of you have a mixed bag of thoughts as to weather you're employee's or I.A.'s.
I thought too that the way ym "contract" was set forth that I was a "Temp. Employee" for the duration of a particular storm. Yet when I had an accident on the job and made a W.C. claim, all of a sudden I was an I.A. again due to some hidden language in the Federal Statutes regarding "length of employment". |
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TedPasan
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 23:03:13
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First of all let me say I am not opposed to safety nor to any changes which can enhance the health, safety and welfare of adjusters.
If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, then I also am in agreement with you, that vendors and carriers do in fact have varying degrees of liability for their adjusters who are injured in a roof fall, without regard to whether they think that liability has been transferred or not.
However, I do think that recent patterns of preferred vendor contractors by insurance companies certainly lends itself by extention to a safer approach for those carriers seeking a true transfer of liability risk, by assigning roof claims to professional roofers for inspection than continuing to assign them to adjusters. Independent third party roofing professionals could provide the mechanism for a true risk transfer without liability. And I think we both could agree, that such a risk management technique, while good for the carriers would be a tragedy for the vendors and adjusters. Hence my reservation at not opening this particular Pandora's Box.
Finally, despite the best application of OSHA rules and regulations in the workplace, accidents do still happen, with resulting injuries and deaths. And despite whatever safety systems, policies and devices adopted, the ultimate decision of whether to incur risk in exchange for reward lies with the worker, and most especially the independent contractor type of worker. So ultimately, you or I or anyone has to make the hard decision on a job site if our acts may pose life threatening risks of injury and death, and then make the best decisions we can by our own measurement yardsticks. Different adjusters have different abilities when it comes to climbing a roof safely, and while I have no desire or interest in steep and tall teams or rope and harness adjusting, others perform these tasks with great skill and dexterity. I just happen to believe that the decisions to climb or not climb safely can best be made by the individual and not by the government.
Again, I am not opposed to safety, nor changes which provide real safety enhancements, but I do think the risks of opening this door by inviting OSHA in, must be examined in light of many factors, including realistic ones which can affect our incomes and careers. |
Edited by - TedPasan on 09/14/2003 23:10:41 |
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LAW1526
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 08:00:41
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Coming from the safety industry, I can tell you that if an employer has a lost time work related accident for any employee they employee they are require by OSHA to document the accident on the appropriate OHSA reporting forms. OSHA requires an employer to track all lost time accidents and post these accident in the work place. Depending on the severity of a lost time accident the employer is require to notify OHSA immediately for an investigation by the agencies. If an employer is caught not complying with these requirements they are subject to a fine by OSHA.
OSHA does not enforce the same fall protection requirements for residential work as imposed on commercial projects. OSHA has a very strict fall protection requirements over 6ft in height for the commercial industry. The 6ft fall protection requirements is, any employee working above 6ft is required to have a harness and lanyard attached to an approve tie off point, or the overhead working area must have a guardrail installed built to the OHSA requirements. The buddy system is always enforced on overhead work. No employee can work above 6ft with out a co-worker.
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OSHA - roofs - adjusters?
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