| Author |
Message |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 157
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:57 am: | |
Recently, Linda Asberry posted the following quote: "For someone who professes to be a lobbyist for a special interest group, i.e., insurance, it should be an easy guess why the language of the policy is so liberal--most of the rate structures are unregulated. Guess who managed that one."
I was surprised initially at this response as it is generally not the case around the country where 'rate and form approvals' are fairly standard, except for excess and surplus line policies and non-standards which are exempt from either approvals or prior approvals.
However, a little research on my part, found the following information posted on the website of the Texas Department of Insurance which confirms what Linda has said about regulation in Texas:
"Each year, the Commissioner of Insurance sets "benchmark" rates. Rate-regulated companies can then set their rates within 30 percent above or below the benchmarks without prior approval. Lloyd´s and reciprocal exchange companies, however, are exempt from rate regulation. Nearly all homeowners policies in Texas are sold through companies that are exempt from rate regulation."
I post this here for anyone else who may have raised an eyebrow in seeing the earlier statement without an understanding of the way things are done in Texas.
P.S.: Just because I write to elected officials, make telephone calls, contribute to insurance industry PAC's, and attend insurance organization meetings concerning contemporary issues related to our industry does not make me a "lobbyist" (at least a paid full time one) but merely a professional concerned with the future of this industry.
I am reminded of Abraham Lincoln's quote: "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
(Message edited by dwongwhey on June 20, 2002) |
Clayton Carr
Member
Username: Clayton
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 11:39 am: | |
Mr. Cash, I to am not "unemployed", although my preference is to measure that guage in terms of work at hand. However, I found the time to do some research on the question that is the topic of this thread, and further found the time, albeit rather late at night, to respond to your 10.29PM post yesterday.
It is in that post Sir, that you were rather defamatory to the "systems" we follow to gain work at hand, and further made comments eluding to corruption in that "system".
I did my best to show others that may be impressioned by your remarks, that our industry although beset with problems - is not the dark hole you try and portray.
Again, I ask you to please find the time to either retract some of the statements made perhaps through a vent of frustration, and explain and clarify other remarks; so we may better judge your comments.
I might add by the way, that your last post in my opinion does not support the question posed as the title to this thread. |
JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 10:49 am: | |
Clayton, It would require that I be unemployed to answer such a lengthy post in detail. Anyway, back to the subject.. Here is something of interest for those that do not think Legionaires exposure is not a current problem for someone adjusting mold claims.
=============================
LEGIONNAIRES' SOURCE FOUND
Dec. 25/2001
Sydney Herald Sun
Three businesses in Thomastown have been identified as possible sources of
October's legionella outbreak.
Testing of 74 cooling towers revealed three towers carried the bacteria
that causes the disease.
Victoria's chief health officer, Dr Graham Rouch, was cited as saying
Thurs. that DNA samples taken from eight of the 17 people infected
matched the bacteria found in a cooling tower at Kats Refrigeration.
A chicken-processing company, La Ionica, of Thomastown, is also believed
to be a potential source after DNA testing proved inconclusive.
There have been 58 cases of legionnaires' disease in Victoria this year,
and seven victims died.
La Ionica queried the conclusion that its cooling tower had been a
potential source.
===============================
SPRAY AT WATER PARKS POSES HEALTH PROBLEM
December 22, 1998
N.Y. Times
BY JOHN O'NEIL
Indoor water parks, with their fountains, spouts and
water slides, have grown increasingly popular but according to a new
study led by Dr. Cecile Rose of the National Jewish Medical and
Research Center in Denver and published earlier this month in the
American Journal of Public Health, chronic exposure to contaminated
droplets was responsible for a kind of inflammatory lung illness among
lifeguards at a Colorado water park that was closed
twice in two years by the outbreaks.
In 1986, the city of Westminster, north of Denver,
opened an indoor water park, with three pools, two
waterfalls, a water slide, a fountain and two hot tubs.
In the years that followed, a number of lifeguards at
the facility developed respiratory symptoms, leading
several to quit.
In 1989, four lifeguards were diagnosed with
granulomatous pneumonitis and the park was closed.
A subsequent survey found that at least 27 percent of
pool employees had been infected, reporting symptoms
that included coughs, chest tightness and congestion.
The researchers further found that work records indicated a direct link
between the time spent at the pool and the likelihood of infection.
The story notes that health officials have long suspected that saunas, hot
tubs and indoor fountains can be highly effective
vehicles for transmitting infections.=
=========================
Both of these stories indicate a transmittal of bacteria via water or airborne mist.
|
Chuck Deaton
Member
Username: Chuckdeaton
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 8:49 am: | |
Since 5/5 I unexpectedly visited more than a hundered Texas homes, all in the Amarillo or panhandle area, all were clean and well maintained.
The puzzle is that in the Texas Panhandle evaporative coolers are common. In fact they are the rule. Often as not mounted on the roof. In effect evaporative coolers (swamp coolers) are an induced water leak. Some of these coolers predate Freon. Yet, seemingly, little or no mold growth and no real concern about mold growth. |
Clayton Carr
Member
Username: Clayton
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 1:17 am: | |
Jack, as this thread has lost its' original course, I want to touch on some issues in your last post. In review, of the following I had thought I would have more questions for you than just my commentary; but it does appear I have rambled and I see as I prepared my notes that Linda has approached it from another angle.
"Fight" - what you have seen here is not a fight, it's just the propensity of one to be / do exactly as Roy characterized it this afternoon. Others express their opinions with strong and sharp tones and it shocks me when I think if they might speak to someone face to face like that with any regularity in day to day discussions.
This whole "mold dispute" is going to be one of the major issues of the decade, more so than asbestos was many years ago. Our societies on this continent are consumer savvy but also prone to media festered paranoia. Asbestos was a known commodity / product, with few "cousins", and it did not grow or manifest itself; whereas the current anti-christ to our industry profit margins keeps coming and coming.
However, back to your post. I tend to disagree with your statement regarding our "common responsibility" to the policyholder. First, let me state - I was in my former life as a dutiful employee, and I am in my current life - a staunch defender and strong believer in paying the PH exactly all they were due under their contract or as directed by the court. However, if I interpret your phrase correctly - i.e. you speak as "us" an Independent Contractor - my responsibility is to the carrier. I will determine the "3C's" (cause, coverage, cost) and try my best to explain and document that to the carrier and tell all that I can to the PH; but I see the responsibility issue as me to the carrier. Maybe you mean the same but I read it in another context, if not please explain.
"The major differences we have .... are .... value and scope ...." - herein lies a common and major problem with our profession; and it is certainly not limited to "mold issues". Staying within the context of a mold related loss, regardless of what State or Province the issue of "value and scope" arise, it is too new of a damage type and so necessarily varied as to how to deal with it effectively - that it will continue to be a very troublesome item to "value and scope", involving compounding issues beyond the unfortunate dilemma of any three adjusters examining a moderate to heavy "traditional" loss site and coming up with at least 2, if not 3, different scopes and estimates of loss.
It will be for sure a litagators dream world on this issue for years to come. However, for serious senior claims people, I also see it as utopia for a true lover of property claims; and not just because it generates lots of billings. There is a whole new chapter in insurance claims being drafted as each 100 files runs their course, and it is this dynamic change with the presence of this new "loss element" that will provide many great challenges and opportunities for those that become "students" of the issue. It is truly one of those rare moments I wish I could turn the clock back 20 years. Do you have the same enthusiasm for the issue? I do ask with interest, as you have mentioned your direct involvement in these claims.
"PA's" - they are no different than me or anyone else involved in the adjustment of claims. I'm sure the majority of us have great respect for some, deal comfortably with most; and have a disdain for a few. Any adjuster that "fears" a PA, should "fear" themselves. We will all encounter people (PA's and others) who know some more or a lot more than ourselves. Personally, I welcome it and I hope some of that knowledge rubs off and stays with me. To fear encountering such people is ignorance, but to embrace it is confidence, and to learn from it is maturity. I would not tolerate, and I categorically hate the adjuster who boasts how cheap he got out of a claim due to the lack of knowledge on the part of the PH. It is at this point that I should / will again profess the words of Lord Mansfield from 1766, ".... the principal of the utmost good faith is not difficult to discern; it is designed to equalize the bargaining position between those who know and those who do not know ...." Hence, I think there is a clear and honorable role for the PA's to have; and I think it was industry created and still perpetuated. If anyone sees that differently, I would be pleased to read your reasons why.
Jack, there is nothing in your 2nd last paragraph that I can agree with, other than I have already today supported my position as a prostitute. I have taken one day, several day, one week, or several month long courses off and on for over 30 years; and I'm sure glad I did. While an employee, most but not all were paid for me, but 100% of the cost of any courses since 1987 were paid by me. I consider that a cost of doing business. As an employee I had to have a closet full of suits and ties, it's a lot cheaper to travel and pay for whatever courses I must have and those I want to have. I see absolutely no relationship between any certification that I have taken and how it may relate to abuse of a PH that you elude to. Please tell me more about that. I do not want younger people exploring this profession to have any such notion as you have suggested.
Also, I don't understand your closing comment relating certification to being corraled and being sent to do the dirty work. Again, we have quite an audience of junior people who are just starting to form opinions of this industry. I have been in some terrible and dirty loss sites, but that was my choice, and that added to the challenge. I sense you relate "dirty work" to your "rip off" comment. Please, either retract it or attempt to explain and support it.
There, that should twist some knickers, that hopefully will not knot themselves when reason and professionalism are applied. |
Linda Asberry
Moderator
Username: Linda
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:03 pm: | |
I may be missing something but I am having a difficult time understanding why the language of the Texas HO-B policy is so intriguing to adjusters who have stated they have absolutely no intention of working in Texas. So what if "sudden and accidental" does not appear. If it doesn't--it doesn't! Should be the end of that discussion. Claims are and should be handled based on policy language and court decisions.
There is absolutely no excuse for heated discussions on this forum--they cease to be discussions and become shouting matches in print benefiting no one and becoming an embarrassment for everyone. We are all opinionated and that is a good thing. Our livlihoods all depend on the opinions we have scoping damages or lack thereof and the causation of those damages.
For someone who professes to be a lobbyist for a special interest group, i.e., insurance, it should be an easy guess why the language of the policy is so liberal--most of the rate structures are unregulated. Guess who managed that one.
People are people no matter where they are. Every city in the world has a variety of citizens, some much more caring than others. It's not just Texas or not just New York or not just North Carolina--it is everywhere you go. I do not believe the other "45-48" states are pristine. I have been in every one of them and not every stucture is well maintained and not every homeowner is a good "housekeeper".
It saddens me to think of all the knowledge that could be exchanged on this forum but for the harsh words and mean spirited remarks. If we are attempting to impart knowledge to help our fellow adjusters, then why in the world would we not want to be at least polite. We all have the vocubulary necessary to transfer that knowledge and we have the comprehension to grasp it.
The very people who employ us read these forums and I feel we should be asking ourselves--before we hit "post", if we would want a prospective or current employer to know we made such a statement. Sort of separates the wheat from the chaff.
Just my humble opinion. |
JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 10:29 pm: | |
Oh, Come on guys lets not fight...The topic has enough to dispute... We are all in the same battle, some are on one side of the fence. One thing we have in common is our responsibility to the policy holder, above all. The major differenes we have for the most part are based on the value and scope of the damages. We have legal means to evaluate and determine our differences and bring them to a conclusion. A public adjuster is no more a crook, than anyone. We have all had experiences with public adjusters that seem to lack ethic`s, however I think it is somewhat of a misconception to characterize them as slime.
The insurance industry has changed and many of the positions that adusters have taken as a result of these changes would easily have been disputed in years gone by.It now takes in some cases hours to pay a claim for roof damage.
We now accept the the so called certification for adjusting losses, as we are whores for work. In addition we offer to pay to get certified in how to rip-off the policyholder. The bottom line is if you do not agree to rip off the policy holder per the certification your name becomes dog do-doo.
I have developed a certain respect for Public adjusters who refuse to cow-tow to the day to day bull__ sheet we have to put up with. We are not being certified we are being corraled and sent out to do the dirty work. |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 3:57 pm: | |
Now, now, no reason for everyone to get their knickers in a knot.....
The point I was trying to make, albeit unsuccessfully I suppose, is that when an adjuster walks into a home with every wall and every ceiling covered with mold in every room, that kind of mold growth did not occur overnight.
While it may not be important in Texas, it is important in an overwhelming majority of states due to mold exclusionary language in place within those state's policies, as well as the practices of claims adjusting within almost every state save and except Texas. It seems to me unfair, to paint or try to paint an unfair and invalid picture that how claims are 'adjusted' in Texas is how they are adjusted anywhere or everywhere else. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Sudden and accidental is still the important ingredient for determining coverage in 49 other states. That is a point which I would have thought would be well to remember, especially among a forum for catastrophe adjusters.
As I pointed out and will continue to maintain, in almost every state, mold is covered only when as a result of a sudden and accidental event.
I do understand the nuances of the insurance policy which cover consequential loss in Texas, and while that appears to be to the liking of many, it is also, as I understand it, a cause of great alarm to those who understand the effect it is having on insurance market pricing and availability. Most state insurance commissioners I think it fair to say, do not envy the Texas experience, and in my humble opinion, most will take proper steps to see that the insurance markets in their states do not relapse or regress to standards accecpted and comforted in Texas.
I will continue to ask the question to anyone, how it is that these insureds wake up one day with a totally mold covered home without evidently having any prior knowledge of the conditions which were set up by some event, covered or otherwise which caused or would have caused it.
My comments about people living in squalid conditions, while possibly offensive to some, are based on numerous lengthy conversations which I have had with quite a few cat adjusters who are working on mold assignments in Texas as well as elsewhere.
One does not have to travel to only one state to witness poor housekeeping, significant deferred maintenance (if any), and a lack of regard for bearing personal responsibility to mitigate damages.
I still leave the question posed here for any of the adjusters handling mold claims to describe for me and this audience, how insureds can suddenly wake up one day with mold throughout their homes without an inkling of clues of some damage or event which might lead to mold.
I firmly believe there are situations where mold remediation is justified and also situations where mold removal should be covered under an insurance policy.
I do not stand alone however, in my belief, that the situation in Texas is fed more as a frenzy borne of fears planted by the media and fed along by attorneys, public adjusters and remediation/testing contractors.
Personally, I do not decry what is happening in Texas, and in fact, take a degree of delight in watching the continuing degradation of stability among insurance premiums and policy availability. I do so simply for the reason it makes lobbying easier and more effective within the other 49 states for more restrictive and more precise exclusionary language to eliminate mold coverage from homeowner's policies in advance of it becoming a problem elsewhere. Stability drives insurance markets while instability leads to carriers being subjected to state's DOI supervision, insolvencies and liquidations.
Finally, I do believe the day will come in this industry when we all look back and realize that the feeding frenzy from mold at the insurance industry trough was one of the greatest frauds every perpetrated on insurance companies and the general public. And when that day comes, I want to be on record that I stood my ground based on reason and fact, rather than fear and greed.
Everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they care to keep, and I would only hope that everyone does such with as much research and understanding of all the available facts as is possible.
For the record I have handled hundreds of mold claims, but only within those states where 'sudden and accidental' language is contained within the policy, and the claims are adjusted as such. Finally, in any one week, I suspect that I have telephone and internet conversations with as many adjusters, supervisors and managers (staff and independent) who are out solely on mold handling assignments as almost anyone who reads or posts to this board; so the information which I am receiving is not singular nor are many of the descriptions I receive not also widely corroborated.
(Message edited by dwongwhey on June 18, 2002) |
alan jackson
Registered User
Username: Ajackson
Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 3:38 pm: | |
Some additional reading.
The Holy Bible
Leviticus Chapter 14 versus 34 to 48
This appears to be the first recorded remediation plan. The only thing missing is the signature of a C.I.H.
Thanks,
A.Jackson J.D. |
Roy Cupps
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 147
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 2:50 pm: | |
I agree with Dan. D Wong Way, I often find your remarks be rude and it appears that most of the time you are just posting to insult, slam or stir up trouble. Watch it or stop posting.
CatAdjuster.org An Adjuster to Adjuster Community
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mark salmon
Registered User
Username: Olderthendirt
Post Number: 198
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
I wonder how much modern construction methods and more efficient air conditioning systems (which do not go back 2000 years) are a part of the sudden surge of claims, along with public awareness that they may not have to live with these problems. Perhaps, as we also sell the idea that the insured doesn't have to clean up, that we will send out the emergency water removal experts, that this is contributing to the growing problem. As the illnesses are often real and most of us can tell when we walk into a house with a problem,(burning eyes etc) it is clear that something is happening. |
Roy Cupps
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 146
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 2:32 pm: | |
Bulletin Board Transfer: Posted By: Dan Eggleston, 6/16/02
Mr. Wrong Way,
Apparently everyone in Texas is so busy down at the rodeo or out on the ranch to notice when mold first appears and to do anything about it. So by the time the insured calls the carrier, the whole house is absolutely covered with mold. That I just do not understand and I suppose it is fair to say I will never "get it." Haven't these people the slightest clue of how to clean and maintain their homes the way the rest of us do in the other 45-48 states? Or do they just live like animals? Someone please explain that to me!
Everyone in America is entitled to his or her opinion. But you have now crossed the line, Mr. Wrong Way.
You have now made it personal when you start resulting good folks. Words like, "animals, these people, down on the ranch or farm, uncleanliness".
This border lines on racial remarks. But assuming your name I guess you feel like you can cross that invisible line. Stick to the facts. Leave your insults to yourself.
I to adjust mold claims here in Texas. I'm also a native Texan. It appears you have never worked a mold claim, for if you had you would know some of these claims are the real deal. I have been in several homes for as little as 15 min and came out with burning eyes and skin, red spots showing up on exposed areas. I have insureds with serious skin lesions, and other serious respiratory problems. If mold was not a serious issue why is it all of these environmentalist are requesting remediation. By the way this is the Enviro Company hired by the insurance co.
I have witnessed the damage caused by mold to property and human body.
I don't think you have a clue. If you ever make it to Houston Texas give me a call I will help educate you!!!
I would have posted this to the forum but it wouldn't upload. I did however want you to see and hear about your rudeness
CatAdjuster.org An Adjuster to Adjuster Community
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D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 155
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:19 am: | |
P.S.: My example of 'Grasshopper flatulence' was intended as a metaphor. I thought you would have picked that up Mr.Cook.
As a simile expression, I personally thought it was a gas.
I'm sorry it passed over so many heads!
(Message edited by dwongwhey on June 18, 2002) |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 154
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:14 am: | |
Mr.Cook, I have no problem whatsoever with a public adjuster, attorney or adjuster providing each and every insured with each and every possible coverage entitled to that insured under the insured policy contract.
As I do not handle nor adjust claims in Texas, nor have any desire to, I can sit back and enjoy the media fueled feeding frenzy and no doubt fraud elements which are wreaking havoc on the Texas insurance markets. Sooner or later, folks in Texas will not be able to find insurance much less afford it.
35 other states (and counting) have now quietly adopted the newest ISO policies which clarify exclusionary language and exclude or severly limit mold coverage (including a total exclusion for testing), and it is my opinion, that those state's insurance commissioners have wisely moved to protect their citizens as well as preserve their state insurance markets from the silly spectacle the rest of us see going on in Texas.
Let's face it Mr.Cook, you as a public adjuster are in it for the money. So are the lawyers and so are the testing and remediation firms.
Mold has only become an 'issue' within the past 3 years and it certainly begs the question, since mold has been around since before Jesus Christ, what you as a public adjuster and all those suddenly 'ill' insureds did before it became an issue? Perhaps in the 'good old days' the idea of maintaining one's home and using a little bleach and water to clean up a mold area when it first appeared is just too much to ask of an insured in keeping with the letter and spirit of the policy contract language requiring an insured to mitigate damage losses.
Apparently everyone in Texas is so busy down at the rodeo or out on the ranch to notice when mold first appears and to do anything about it. So by the time the insured calls the carrier, the whole house is absolutely covered with mold. That I just do not understand and I suppose it is fair to say I will never "get it." Haven't these people the slightest clue of how to clean and maintain their homes the way the rest of us do in the other 45-48 states? Or do they just live like animals? Someone please explain that to me!
Mr.Cook, I will concede health concerns or no health concerns, no insured should remain in a home with large scale mold infestation. What I simply do not understand is how a home can become so totally unliveable without the insured noticing it well before then.
Perhaps we as an industry have failed in providing the understanding for consumers that insurance policies are not maintenance contracts? The continued survival of the insurance industry is dependent on a return to reason and the public acceptance that maintenance contracts would be so prohibitive as to only be affordable by the very wealthiest of individuals.
It is a crying shame that the depositions and trail record for the Ballard case in Texas is not made available and required reading for every adjuster and public adjuster in America. Perhaps that would be the only way that we could finally clear up the grave misconception that Ballard was about mold, when in fact it was a bad faith action. As anyone can discover, no elements of damage were paid for medical damages alleged by mold nor did the state court allow testimony making any connection between mold and illness. And the state court disallowed testimony alleging any connection for one good reason, which we all know.
I am lobbying actively behind the scenes on other insurance venues to support the efforts of ISO and carriers to eliminate mold as a consequential coverage, and within the next 24 months, I believe that mold will hardly be an issue in all but less than 5 or 6 states at the most, and likely only three.
I remain convinced that the media driven feeding frenzy surrounding mold is perpetuated by those with an economic interest in continuing to misconstrue the facts, and to seduce insureds through mistruths and fear. In the end, it is all the other honest insureds in Texas or elsewhere who will suffer in extraordinarily higher insurance premiums and unavailability of coverage, and the forced formation of some quasi-governmental body (similar to TWIA) which will be the required insurer of last resort for the continued protection even for fire coverage in Texas.
When the history of the mold saga in insurance is writen, I intend to have so spoken as to be recognized as one who did not lose his reason, did not succumb to fear, and stood on the principles of honesty, integrity, and ethics, and could not be lured away from my principles for the handful of quick dollars that so many others have sold their souls for in this mold mess.
Good luck in your continuned pursuit as an advocate for your insureds.
Best Wishes,
D. Wong Whey
(Message edited by dwongwhey on June 18, 2002) |
William S. Cook
Registered User
Username: Wscook
Post Number: 49
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 8:27 am: | |
Dear Wong Whey
Your past postings have identified you as an exceptionally knowledgeable, strict policy interpretation advocate. Why would you find fault with a public adjuster using the legislative published laws and policy language to gain compensation for the best benefits afforded an insured. If insurers in Texas choose to include policy language to cover damage caused by passing wind from a distant grasshopper, the purchaser of the policy is entitled to be compensated for any resultant damage. Your ridicule and crusade should be directed at the drafters and approvers of the contract that included what you consider to be offending language, rather than finding fault with a consumer advocate seeking enforcement of the written laws and policy language.
William S Cook
Public Adjuster
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JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 7
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 9:58 pm: | |
I am not a public adjuster Mr. Wong Wey, however considering the direction our industry seems to be heading the prospect is becoming more appealing....
I am getting a little sick of having to " buy my Jobs" visa vi certification for just about everybody. Not to mention all the other garbage that is hoisted upon adjusters every day by so called cat companies.
How many ways are there to measure a roof and pray tell why do we as adjusters have to pay insurance companies to tell us how to read a policy ? |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 152
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 9:35 pm: | |
In Texas if a house collapses due to fully depreciated obsolescence, shoddy workmanship and/or materials, or from an Act of God (non-peril variety) they still cover the loss as long as the insured or a public adjuster can assert that a grasshopper had a bad case of flatulence within 500 miles of the risk.
The rest of the country still pretty much relies on 'sudden and accidental' for any insurance coverage.
By the way Mr. Cash, how long have you been a Public Adjuster?
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JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 2:31 pm: | |
We do not insure, however, for loss:
Caused by:
===============================
The key words seem to be >caused by<, obviously most Mold is caused by a discharge of water Dee Wong Wey.......It would seem to me that we have a fiduciary responsibility to examine and test for this bacteria once the potential danger becomes common knowlege, as it has done this day via these boards....
If a pollutant is a result of accidental water discharge, particularly in the State Of Texas it would be a covered loss as; would the cost of remediation. Here is a site that pretty clearly indicates the possible link between Mold and Legionaires disease during the remediation and construction process. http://www.pinchin.net/newsletters/hazard/constructionhospitals7.htm
(Message edited by jackcash on June 17, 2002) |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 149
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 1:57 pm: | |
We do not insure, however, for loss:
Caused by:
Discharge, dispersal, seepage, migration, release, or escape of POLLUTANTS........
Pollutants means any solid, liquid, gaseous or thermal irritant or contaminant, including smoke, vapor, soot, fumes, acids, alkalis, chemicals and waste. Wate includes materials to be recycled, reconditioned or reclaimed.
Except in Texas, homeowners insurance policies would and do specifically exclude coverage for contaminants and pollutants which would further include bacteria, mold and viruses. |
JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 1:33 pm: | |
" .... any restoration work in a hospital or other health care facility has the potential to release settled mould spores or bacteria in plumbing systems during removal and repair of ceilings, walls, and other finishes. If this airborne dust is not contained, suceptible patients might develop fungal infections or Legionnaires' disease .... "
======================================
Clayton, The above statement you posted from that site pretty well sums up what I have endeavored to say. We as adjusters probably should examine the possibility of testing for this bacteria while we are testing for mold contaminants. They both seem to have the same delivery capability and breed in like conditions.
It was not my intention to create a micro-biological discussion on the somewhat elementry differences between mold and bacteria ,as both seem to pose separate and differing dangers to adjuster and policyholder. By creating the question and the topic perhaps it may become a motivating factor for the CDC to reexamine the potential link and issue some concrete formal guidlines for the proper remediation of these conseqential losses. I am personally interested, as the symptoms I experienced after working Mold claims for over a year mimmicked those of Legionaires disease. =
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Mr. Flynt,Dude try and imagine the bacteria as a hitchhiker that got a ride on the back of a Mold Spore.....
P.S. You certainly are an insulting little man. |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 352
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:52 pm: | |
The symptoms for a heart attack may be mimicked by hiatal hernia or a gall bladder attack, yet there is little connection among the three.
Symptom sharing is not all together uncommon prior to a correct, definitive and more conclusive diagnosis within the medical community for a/or any particular illness or disease.
That there could be similar symptoms is not surprising nor surprising that it does not follow to any logical degree of commonality of causation.
Again, we would arrive at the same laughably illogically reasoned conclusions which might appear in Mad Magazine cartoon panels to now suddenly shift your argument of connection for EXPOSURE to some bacteria or some mold to SIMILARITY OF SYMPTOMS in some situations. That argument is as disjointed and discordant as the earlier argument was similarly illogical.
I repeat seriously: Bacteria is to Fungi (mold) scientifically what Pigs are to Orangutans.
The two (MOLD (fungi) versus BACTERIA) are just not part of the same scientific family of microorganism. To anyone who even begins to possess even the most rudimentary knowledge of biology, that is a pretty simple concept to grrasp. AND, no matter how hard you try, how long you wait, or how weightily you hang your hat or bet on connecting the two, they simply are not and cannot be inter-bred scientifically. Serendipity or no serendipity.
(Message edited by jimflynt on June 17, 2002) |
JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:44 pm: | |
But if the criteria for suggested "relationships" only resulted from sharing a side by side existence, think of the many laughable pairings which we could all arrive at in logical conclusion. Hardly the stuff of scientific breakthrough nor ethical forensic scholarship, but rather more like the logic which might be found in a cartoon panel in Mad Magazine
<You wrote
===================
Mr. Flynt,The symptoms experienced by many people often are the same ones reported by victims of Parkers disease aka Legionaires disease. I am glad you now seem to understand some of the similiarities between the two as they often co-exist in a degree of harmony. The bacteria which killed thirty eight people in Pennsylvania and today still continues to kill people is formulated in air-conditioning systems and simply requires a moist atmosphere to form. As does toxic Mold.
Perhaps rather than cutting and pasting massive amounts of readily available medical information, you could explore the possibility that both airborn bacteria and spores from mold could be transmitted to the policyholder as airborn contaminants. It is my contention that perhaps many of these situations that have been misdiagnosed due to the frenzy and publicity surrounding the Black Mold issue. I realize it may be somewhat more difficult for an adjuster to differentiate Black Mold from this bacteria as Black Mold is clearly visible.
Jack |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 351
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:39 pm: | |
(While the attempt to make an unscientific connection between bacteria and virus or mold and virus has yet been made, given the degree of evident biological naivety, this synopsis is posted peremptorily)
Human Diseases Caused by Viruses
Some viruses can be transmitted through the air and directly or indirectly involve the respiratory system. Most of these viruses are highly communicable and cause diseases such as chickenpox, influenza, measles, mumps, respiratory syndromes and viral pneumonia, rubella, hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, and the now extinct smallpox.
The arthropod-borne diseases are transmitted by arthropod vectors from human to human or animal to human. Examples include the various encephalitides, Colorado tick fever, and historically important yellow fever.
Some viruses are so sensitive to environmental influences that they are unable to survive for significant periods of time outside their hosts. These viruses are transmitted from host to host by direct contact and cause diseases such as AIDS, cold sores, the common cold, cytomegalovirus inclusion disease, genital herpes, human herpesvirus 6 infections, human parvovirus B19 infections, certain leukemias, infectious mononucleosis, rabies, and viral hepatitides.
Viruses that can be transmitted by food and water and usually either grow in or pass through the intestinal system leave the body in the feces and are acquired through the oral route. Examples of such diseases include viral gastroenteritis, hepatitis A and E, and poliomyelitis.
The slow virus diseases represent progressive pathological processes caused by viruses or prions that remain clinically silent during a prolonged period of months or years, after which progressive clinical disease becomes apparent, usually ending months later in profound disability or death. Examples include Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, kuru, progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy, Gerstmann-Sträussler-Scheinker syndrome, and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis.
One other disease associated with viruses but that does not fit into any of the foregoing categories is warts.
(Source: Microbiology Student Online Learning Center)
(Message edited by jimflynt on June 17, 2002) |
Clayton Carr
Member
Username: Clayton
Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:24 pm: | |
Jack, first - cudos to you for pressing your question; then it was Mark's comment that made me dig a bit.
I'm going to summarize an article I found in one of our adjuster Journals, written by Bruce Stewart, CIH, ROH; of Pinchin Environmental (albeit without permission). Their web site is
www.pinchin.com
" .... mould spores will always be present in buildings, whether blown in through windows, or other openings, brought in by ventilation equipment, or tracked in .... there is no acceptable level of mould growth in buildings, that is an amount of mould growth that can remain without risking adverse health effects among at least some of the occupants ...."
" .... Several professional bodies have issued standards in the past few years on the assessment and remediation of mould growth in buildings. The most significant of these are as follows ...."
Guidelines on Assessment and Remediation of Fungi in Indoor Environments, 2000, New York City Department of Health www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/doh/html/epi/moldrpt1.html
The New York City guidelines are widely quoted by public health departments and other regulatory agencies. The Ontario Ministry of Labour references these guidelines in a Hazard Alert on Mould in Workplace Buildings issued in 2000
www.gov.on.ca/lab/ohs/a20e.htm
Construction - Related Nosocomical Infections in Patients in Health Care Facilities: Decreasing the Risk of Aspergillus, Legionella and other Infections, Health Canada, 2001
www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/bid/nosocom/pdf/constdr6.pdf
This Health Canada standard gives precautions to be taken when preforming restoration work in hospitals and health care facilities, in order to reduce the risk of patients acquiring mould infections and Legionnaires' disease.
" .... any restoration work in a hospital or other health care facility has the potential to release settled mould spores or bacteria in plumbing systems during removal and repair of ceilings, walls, and other finishes. If this airborne dust is not contained, suceptible patients might develop fungal infections or Legionnaires' disease .... "
Standard and reference Guide for professional Water Damage restoration, 2nd edition, 1999, published by the US Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and restoration
www.iicrc.org
The IICRC provides training and certification for restoration contractors. The Second Edition of the S500 standard places much more emphasis on protecting the building occupants from harmful microbial growth.
Mold Remediation in Schools and Commercial Buildings, 2001, US EPA.
The EPA standard details procedures to be followed in remediating mould growth. From the prospective of the adjusting water damage claims, it also gives useful advice on the building finishes that can be restored after wetting, and how quickly the restoration effort must dry those finishes, versus the building finishes that can not be restored and must be removed and replaced.
The article goes on but these are segments that may have some relativity to your question Jack. |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 349
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:13 pm: | |
Human Diseases Caused by Other Bacteria
Three chlamydial species cause human disease: Chlamydia pneumoniae causes chlamydial pneumonia; Chlamydia trachomatis causes inclusion conjunctivitis, lymphogranuloma venereum, nongonococcal urethritis, and trachoma; and C.psittaci causes psittacosis.
Three species of mycoplasmas are human pathogens: Mycoplasma hominis and Ureaplasma urealyticum cause genitourinary tract disease, whereas M.pneumoniae is a major cause of acute respiratory disease and pneumonia.
The rickettsias found in the United States can be divided into the typhus group (epidemic typhus caused by R.prowazekii and murine typhus caused by R.typhi) and the spotted fever group (Rocky Mountain spotted fever caused by R.rickettsii and ehrlichiosis caused by Ehrlichia chaffeensis), with Q fever (caused by Coxiella burnetii) being an exception because it forms endosporelike structures and does not have to use an insect vector as the other rickettsias do.
Several bacterial odontopathogens are responsible for the most common bacterial diseases in humans—tooth decay and periodontal disease. Both are the result of plaque formation and the production of lactic and acetic acids by the odontopathogens.
Bacteria are the leading cause of hospital-acquired or nosocomial diseases such as bacteremias, burn wound infections, respiratory tract infections, surgical wound infections, and urinary tract infections. These diseases represent a significant proportion of all infectious diseases acquired by humans.
(Source: Microbiology Student Online Learning Center) |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 348
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:07 pm: | |
Human Diseases Caused Primarily by Gram-Positive and Gram-Negative Bacteria
Bacterial diseases of humans can be discussed according to their mode of acquisition/transmission.
Most of the airborne diseases caused by bacteria involve the respiratory system. Examples include diphtheria, Legionnaires’ disease and Pontiac fever, pertussis, streptococcal diseases, and tuberculosis. Other airborne bacteria can cause skin diseases, including cellulitis, erysipelas, and scarlet fever, or systemic diseases such as meningitis, glomerulonephritis, and rheumatic fever.
Although arthropod-borne bacterial diseases are generally rare, they are of interest either historically (plague) or because they have been newly introduced into humans (Lyme disease).
Most of the direct contact bacterial diseases involve the skin, mucous membranes, or underlying tissues. Examples include anthrax, bacterial vaginosis, cat-scratch disease, chancroid, gas gangrene, leprosy, staphylococcal diseases, and syphilis. Others can become disseminated throughout specific regions of the body—for example, gonorrhea, staphylococcal diseases, syphilis, tetanus, and tularemia.
The food-borne and waterborne bacterial diseases are contracted when contaminated food or water is ingested. These diseases are essentially of two types: infections and intoxications. An infection occurs when a pathogen enters the gastrointestinal tract and multiplies. Examples include Campylobacter, shigellosis, and typhoid fever. An intoxication occurs because of the ingestion of a toxin produced outside the body. Examples include botulism, cholera, and staphylococcal food poisoning.
Some microbial diseases and their effects cannot be categorized under a specific mode of transmission. Two important examples are sepsis and septic shock. Gram-positive bacteria, fungi, and endotoxin-containing gram-negative bacteria can initiate the pathogenic cascade of sepsis leading to septic shock.
(Source: Microbiology Student Online Learning Center)
(Message edited by jimflynt on June 17, 2002) |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 347
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:03 pm: | |
Human Diseases Caused by Fungi and Protozoa
Fungal diseases (mycoses) are usually divided into five groups according to the level of infected tissue and mode of entry into the host: (1)superficial, (2)cutaneous, (3)subcutaneous, (4)systemic, and (5)opportunistic infections.
The superficial mycoses occur mainly in the tropics and include black piedra, white piedra, and tinea versicolor.
The cutaneous mycoses—that is, those of the outer layer of the skin—are generally called ringworms, tineas, or dermatophytoses. These diseases occur worldwide and represent the most common fungal diseases in humans.
The dermatophytes that cause the subcutaneous—below the skin—mycoses are normal saprophytic inhabitants of the soil. They must be introduced into the body beneath the cutaneous layer. Examples of these diseases include chromomycosis, maduromycosis, and sporotrichosis.
The systemic mycoses are the most serious of the fungal infections in the normal host because the responsible fungi can disseminate throughout the body. Examples include blastomycosis, coccidioidomycosis, cryptococcosis, and histoplasmosis.
The opportunistic mycoses can create life-threatening situations in the compromised host. Examples of these diseases include aspergillosis, candidiasis, and Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia.
(Source: Microbiology Student Online Learning Center)
(Message edited by jimflynt on June 17, 2002) |
Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 346
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:56 am: | |
Jack, I am (and WAS) very much aware that mold and bacteria live side by side.
Not surprising. Not surprising at all, as mold spores and bacteria live EVERYWHERE. Both can be found in nature in soils, water, air, and across a wide spectrum of environmental conditions.
But if the criteria for suggested "relationships" only resulted from sharing a side by side existence, think of the many laughable pairings which we could all arrive at in logical conclusion. Hardly the stuff of scientific breakthrough nor ethical forensic scholarship, but rather more like the logic which might be found in a cartoon panel in Mad Magazine.
I am glad you posted the last short blurb about "Breakthrough" which features an interview with Dr. Gertrude Elion, who was a widely respected scientist who just happens to have taught pharmacology at two of the nation's top medical schools: Duke University and UNC-CH, both of which are located here in North Carolina.
Were you to have read even the longer version of the short extract you posted, you would realize that Dr. Elion was referring in her comments about "breakthrough" to the two ways she suggests that new drugs are discovered rather than making or suggesting any connection between the fungi and bacteria. (I acknowledge that in her example that she mentions in the penicillin discovery that a mold created a bacteria free zone; however within nature it is understood and expected that there are molds which can kill bacteria and bacteria which can kill molds. That is a foundation of understanding which forms the most elemental foundation of biology as well as microbiology and cellular biology).
Were you as an ill patient to go to the Emergency Room at either Duke Medical Center or UNC Hospitals where Dr. Elion was on faculty, I doubt seriously that you would want an attending physician to treat what was a fungal infection as a bacterial infection or vice versa.
I WAS and AM being serious to suggest that bacteria is to fungi what pigs are to orangutans. In fact, the stronger case could be made scientifically that pigs and orangutans are much closer in fact to the same scientific family than mold and fungi.
It is precisely because you fail to grasp and understand the wide chasm between bacteria and fungi that I do not take your discussion seriously, and why I rather pedantically suggested you read a high school biology textbook. (A college level coursebook on microbiology would be even better).
That was suggested to you then as good advice, and from your misunderstanding of Dr. Elion's interview, it is an even more timely and appropriate suggestion now.
Later as time allows, I will post a list of some of the bacterial diseases as well as a list of the fungal diseases so readers can well see the discordant nature of any silly attempt to make any medical or scientific connection between two vastly and unrelated (scientifically) different types of organisms.
(Message edited by jimflynt on June 17, 2002) |
Todd Summers
Registered User
Username: T4summ
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:23 am: | |
Mark, there is that possibility as well as hundreds of other possibilities, including the toxic waste that is released into the air by all of the petroleum and other plants here in Houston. I watched a special news report the other night that noted the high cancer rates of the population of Beaumont and that the whole area of Southeast Texas has some of the worst air in the world. Not to mention, practically every time I walk into a public building, there is a musty odor and many times there is visible mold. Why so many people choose to live here and make this the 4th largest city in the country continues to boggle my mind. I guess they are here for the same reason I am... $$$. |
mark salmon
Registered User
Username: Olderthendirt
Post Number: 194
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:28 am: | |
Does this raise the possiblity that some of the Insureds we see who claim they are so ill from mold exposure may in fact have been exposed to a bacteria? |
JackCash
Registered User
Username: Jackcash
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 9:04 am: | |
I guess what you fail to realize Mr. Flynt, is the fact that bacteria and mold live side by side. Perhaps this will assist you better understand the relationship.
On a seperate note I really find the condescending nature of your previous posts to be rather juvenile and unprofessional considering the seriousness of the topic.
Here is some further information on the topic at hand which may assist in clarifying the possible relationship between mold and Legionaires.
==========================================
BREAKTHROUGH: What is your definition of a "breakthrough"?
ELION: I think there are two types of breakthroughs. The first is what I call a serendipitous event. For example, penicillin was discovered when Alexander Fleming, who was working with staphylococcus bacteria, found a bacteria-free circle around a mold growth on a culture plate. He then found that an extract of that mold -- even when it was diluted 800 times -- could still prevent the growth of bacteria. The mold was called penicillium notatum -- and the rest is history!
>http://www.breakthroughtv.com/ELION.HTM<
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Jim Flynt
Registered User
Username: Jimflynt
Post Number: 345
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 2:45 am: | |
As you point out, Legionnaire's disease is caused by BACTERIA.
Mold is a FUNGI.
Bacteria is to fungi what pigs are to orangutans.
If you had even the slightest knowledge of high school biology, you would understand there is nothing here to debate.
It would be like trying to suggest a connection or relativity between a dog bite and a shark attack, only because one concluded both were made by living creatures who had their mouths open in attack.
Sorry Jack, but you better go back and read your high school biology 101 textbook if you want to be taken seriously in trying to connect a bacterium with a fungi!
|
Roy Cupps
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 144
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 6:21 pm: | |
Bulletin Board Transfer: Posted by Jack Cash on 6/16/02.
Yesterday I posed this question and was informed rather curtly by that there was not by another. Many mold claims however originate as a result of an overflow or back up in in air conditioning systems air handler. The drip pan below the airhandler is generally located close to intake of the air handler. I was informed because the CDC has reported no link between the two there could be no connection.. Well, Excuse me Pigs could not fly in the days of old, however now all they have to do to fly is simply be shipped somewhere on Delta Airlines. The CDC in Atlanta has not taken a formal position on the effects of toxic black mold. Legionaires Disease is caused by airborne bacteria that generally forms in dirty cooling towers and water heaters. The bacteria becomes airborne and can be transmitted via air ducts and thru showerheads. Those of us who have actually adjusted toxic mold claims have noted the similiar causal conditions between Mold And Legionaires disease. In order for the bacteria to exist it simply must brew in a wet area between 30 and forty degrees. I am interested in a serious discussion on this topic, so if you have something of substance to add please post it here.
click here for the first post
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